Thread: On waranty...

I don't want to hi-jack the welding thread, but thought this may help others understand -

Until I worked for a while for a large car maker, I did not really understand refusing warranty because of modifications. It's about money of course as a warranty claim is very expensive, but the two reasons primarily were

• The customer has modified the vehicle - how do we know what else they have done that might contribute to the problem they are experiencing (and they may have switched back before bring the car in)
• The customer has modified the vehicle in a way that we have not tested, so we don't know what the effect of that modification will be

Putting on aftermarket wheels would not affect the warranty if you had a problem say with the door handles, but if you complained about tyres scrubbing, that is another matter - bearing in mind that no one (claimant or dealer) wants to pay for several hours of a mechanic's time to check everything.

Michael

I met a fella whose welder wasn't working. 'Wasn't hot enough'
Did some testing at the workshop, worked just fine 7016's, 6013's, 2.5/3.2/4.0 no dramas.
BamboozledCustomer.jpeg
Upon further pointy questioning, turns out it was running on approx 100m extension leads, and was struggling to strike an arc, let alone maintain it.

Sometimes you don't get the full story. Sometimes you need to ask the same thing 5 different ways to get a picture of what contributing factors meet said symptoms. Sometimes end user stupidity needs to ruled as such, and the consequence should be worn fully by the user, not manufacturer.

Another favourite is 'What generator do I need to run this welder?'.
Well... I dunno Old Macdonald... your unknown spec generator that has been sitting in the hayshed for the last 45 years just might not cut the mustard, and that Honda EU20i just isn't up to snuff...


Speaking welders, they need input voltage, and at that voltage will draw a current on the supply side. Long leads (voltage drop) and crap or undersize generators will do all sorts of stuff to the input voltage meaning the welder won't perform for it's output voltage. Modern inverter machines have quite a few sensitive electronics inside that need some extra special attention. But that's the price you pay for the new tech, all the niceties we like to have, such as modified waveforms, frequency, HF start, remote amperage control, etc etc.

Originally Posted by Michael G

• The customer has modified the vehicle - how do we know what else they have done that might contribute to the problem they are experiencing

You can think what you like, you need to be able to articulate how the mod contributed to the failure, not some nebulousness "yeah but maybe"

Originally Posted by Michael G

(and they may have switched back before bring the car in)

If you run with that argument you'll never have to do a warranty repair.

Originally Posted by Michael G

• The customer has modified the vehicle in a way that we have not tested, so we don't know what the effect of that modification will be

You don't get to speculate to need to prove(prove in the "have a good story" sense, not prove in court, though it may come to that).

But as we are speculating. Why may a dealer choose to be less than 100% on the customers side when it comes to making a warranty claim?
Dealers make far more money changing the customer for a repair.
If its a warranty claim the parts are supplied by the manufacturer and the manufacturer pays a cut price for labor.(although there will likely be fixed hour figure for the repair so the dealer may cut every corner he can*)
Much better for the dealer to get the customer to pay a rather large mark up on the parts and full labor rate.
Now of course if its something like a tiny oil leak the customer is never going to pay to fix the dealer will be more than happy to do the repair as warranty work.

Dealers will in some cases ask the customer for a refundable diagnosis fee.

Warranty aside the manufacturer has to comply with consumer guarantees act, regardless of what their "void if removed" sticker says.

This shouldn't be taken to suggest that all manufacturers are just dying to approve warranty claims. It shouldn't surprise anyone that some dealer/manufacturers are much better at this than others.

Originally Posted by Commander_Keen

Speaking welders, they need input voltage, and at that voltage will draw a current on the supply side. Long leads (voltage drop) and crap or undersize generators will do all sorts of stuff to the input voltage meaning the welder won't perform for it's output voltage. Modern inverter machines have quite a few sensitive electronics inside that need some extra special attention. But that's the price you pay for the new tech, all the niceties we like to have, such as modified waveforms, frequency, HF start, remote amperage control, etc etc.

Wouldn't you think an inverter machine should be more than capable of looking after itself? If not, surly it should be easy to explain to the customer what failed and why, not threaten to throw him under a completely different bus.

*Had a car recalled for a "6 hour" repair, it was done in two hours except the wheel alignment was out, so I assume, 1. they didn't check when the book said they should have, 2. they didn't take it for a test drive. They also(at best) left the bolt that clamps the spline between the steering column and rack loose. I say "at best" as while the joint was visually loose, I tried to tighten it but couldn't, though it was a bit ch to get to from the top, maybe it was cross threaded? Good work boys . Saved 4 hours and had it come back twice plus a couple of robust conversations and I'm unlikely to ever go back there.(ok I don't know for a fact they saved 4 hours, maybe they had three guys working on it. But does that make the story better or worse? lol). I really should have sent the thing back on a flat bed! So I added my own piece of stupid to the situation

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Wouldn't you think an inverter machine should be more than capable of looking after itself? If not, surly it should be easy to explain to the customer what failed and why, not threaten to throw him under a completely different bus.

Not sure what bus you are referring to given what I wrote in my post? The sentiment I am picking up is that there is some kind of adverserial relationship between retailer/repairer, and the customer. This is not the case.

Inverter machines are not bombproof, I'll be honest. The tech inside is quite complex, and can be electrically fragile. The problem is when people expect a 12kg portable welder to act like a 250KG transformer based machine would when subjected to all manner of abuse. Of course, people want the ruggedness of a big simple machine, with the features of a modern one.

(talking welders) What I do know is that manufacturers use defined operational limits for machines - most basically, 240V +/-15% is a common ballpark number for supply voltages. i.e. it will operate on a range between 204V and 276V. Just like a car with a flat (ie low voltage) battery, circuits that control the vehicle functions are not operational / not happy at supply voltages outside of their given range. Welders are no different, except instead of having an internal battery, the powere comes from the mains supply, and control circuits are stepped down DC voltages usually 5V or 24V.

So how this manifests itself in the real world- when you get a set of long extension leads, the available voltage is on the low end / below the minimum input voltage value. Voltage spikes or voltage drop from a generator when it sees an instantaneous load as the arc is struck, and Imax value goes sky-high (or load on generator disappears instantaneously), can lead to similar voltage fluctuations high and low. This is compounded by the first input rectifier, showing much larger (or lower) DC voltages as a result, and the consequences travel throughout the welder output and control circuits.

Yes, input boards on these machines have filter and smoothing capacitors between active and neutral to limit ripple voltage, but from what I've seen, examples of downstream components such as failed mosfets and control cards (particularly in relation to controlling the NPC and the bypass relay on the input board) tend to be common issues on inverter machines.
Is this a causal relationship? I'm not sure, but the numbers stack up. If we were to log generator output there may be a definitive answer. Catching it 'in the act' is easier said than done.
To be fair, I've also seen machines that suffer under brown-out situations in rural power supply areas... Usually the guy 'at the end of the line' getting a less than ideal input voltage. Who would be to blame in that situation? the user for operating a machine outside of parameters, or the electricity grid owner for supplying power out of spec? That is a tricky one.

Anyway, these are the clear winners for faults that I have personally seen- a $5 part rendering inoperable a otherwise good machine.
9 times out of 10, the benefit of the doubt is given when it comes to a warranty claim. Realistically hours of a tech's time for a post-mortem on a $1500 retail replacement value machine is false economy.

Originally Posted by Commander_Keen

Not sure what bus you are referring to given what I wrote in my post?

Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the practice by at least one dealer/manufacturer to void warranty because of a filed 15amp plug and being so sure of their legal standing, when the customer pushes back they choose to threaten said customer with reporting them to worksafe.(worksafe being the different bus I was referring to). Possibly demonstrating they aren't so fussed about any real safety issue, just getting out of the warranty claim, but who am I to judge?

If indeed low V is the cause of death of a welder, the service center should be able to say that, they could then stand behind that in court if it came to that. Though it wouldn't necessarily do much for them. Would you except the BCM in your car dying because the battery went flat? You would certainly have an argument that it wasn't "reasonable durable". Even then I'd argue you haven't got to "filed pin = cause of low V= cause of failure", but at least you've made a start.

Generators I give you are a different kettle of fish but all of my gennies have 15a outlets, so if the "experts" can only tell by looking for a filed plug, how they going to know?(not that this should be taken that I use my welders on gennies, I don't, at least not yet, but the dealer said I am good for 90A)

Originally Posted by Commander_Keen

Realistically hours of a tech's time for a post-mortem on a $1500 retail replacement value machine is false economy.

Fully understand that, but if you cant tell the customer what went wrong and why, best you give him a new one or if he chooses to take it that far, take your chance in court.

I think you'll find most manufacturers will void warranty when an input plug is modified (changed to a lower spec, or filed down). Most manufacturers I know of have this in their warranty statement- it's written there because it's able to be done so by law. So onus is on the user to decide if the warranty is worth the convenience of the modification. Remember - if it's not the fella on the sales counter that knocks it back, it will be the fella who actually looks at the machine, and usually starts at the end that plugs into the wall.

Most welding machines are warranted between 12 and 36months. Some a bit longer. And this is mainly for the power electronics inside. Any reputable manufacturer will be playing in the very low single digit warranty return rates, so even then, you look into cause of death, and a good percentage of those will be operator (the old ID 10 T error), incorrect use, and other misc faults not related to actual component malfunction.
If it was ever feasible to take a warranty matter like that to court, modification of a AS/NZS 4417.1. level 3 (high risk) electrical product by a non-authorised person probably wouldn't sit too well with a judge. Just sayin'. 'fit for use' consumer claim would be walked all over by any home brew modifications presented.

On the car BCM and low voltage- I wouldn't suspect so. But I was involved with a truck that was struck by lightning, which took out multiple (about 12) very expensive modules which caused all matter of issues for the owner. Same scat, different stink. Most low voltage situations will fail to safe. The same can't be said for high voltages.

On the last point, and as I said - 9 times out of 10, warranty issues are treated in good faith, even if there is a suspicion of user error. But I tell you what- when someone comes in with a machine which has been modified and beaten within an inch of its life, and have the attitude to match, It'll be rejected every single time. I have been threatened with nasty letters and consumer law before, and despite my first instincts of telling them to go set stuffed with a wire brush, my second thought it that if it ever went any further than that, I'd be confident in the judgement when mods have been made in contradiction with common sense, electrical standards, and safety.

While I could argue the difference between the foreseeability of a flat battery and the vehicle being hit by lightning are somewhat different. I mean really, would anybody really be surprised the BCM didn't work after the vehicle had been hit by lightening?
If I grant you every thing else, you resolved the situation and are happy to stand behind your judgement. Turns out all you need to do is show the customer where it is written in the warranty(which I'm sure it is) and then show them the exclusion from Australian consumer law, then you are good to go and can show them the door. No need to get workcover involved.
It's still BS but that's fine, law doesn't have to make sense, see the Mitsubishi fuel labeling class action lol

I mean companies wouldn't continue to put "void if removed" stickers on things even when they knew they weren't meant to be doing it would they?(though who knows maybe they have stopped doing this?)

I had a Unimig product go under warranty , there attitute is if its our fault it will be covered but if its your fault then you pay $$ for time spent investigating and testing. Interestingly there warranty repair place in Sydney is bigger than a Bunnings store , 100's of machine lined up ready to be fixed .

He says it way better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmtO8fIM9qo