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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,540

    Default Doing work for others - this has been on my mind...

    To start with, this is something I've been thinking about for many years and certainly not targeted at anyone in particular.

    As some of you will know, I've been hanging around this forum for a while and occasionally machine things for others when help is needed. I like doing it, I learn new things and try some stuff out. However, I do occasionally get annoyed by people who join, make all the right noises, get something made and then disappear. I've made some interesting parts for new members so can't complain about the making part but I do prefer to have a true picture of their intentions before putting in an effort.

    I wondered whether some guidelines might be worth having that could be posted as a sticky, that moderators could point new people requesting work at so that there are some common expectations with regard to getting things made. Below I've posted a few points for discussion/ inclusion in the list.


    1. Metal costs money. As a minimum, ask for the cost of (and offer to pay for) material up front and an estimate of labour too, particularly if you are on a limited budget. Don't assume your job will take 5 minutes and cost 50c in materials.
    2. Once someone has volunteered to help, it is up to the requestor to make contact and supply all the information about the job. Few things will damage your standing more than not supplying all the necessary information or changing the requirements once work has started.
    3. Qualifications, skill levels and equipment capabilities of members vary enormously. All care is taken but don't start with an expectation of flawless results. Member take on work for interest, to help out or make pocket money. Usually work is done for much less than commercial charges, so keep that in mind.
    4. Say up front if there is a deadline. Most members have day jobs, so work is done when time permits.
    5. Modifications to a requestor's parts are possible, but if the items to be modified are rare or expensive, say so up front. Some members don't want to work on 'good stuff' in case it is damaged.
    6. It would be nice if you became a contributing member of the forum, but if you just want something made, please say so, so it is clear. Remember that if you have been around for a bit (or are established on Woodwork forums), finding someone to help out may be easier.
    7. Making or repairing some items (such as firearms) may be illegal. Requests for that type of work may be removed and the requestor could be banned.
    8. If the work is to make or repair something so it can be sold, please say so. If on-going quantities will be required for commercial purposes, mention that too. Some members are happy to do one offs but don't want to make quantity, and vice versa.
    9. Once something made has been supplied to you, it is polite to acknowledge the assistance you received on the forum, and if it is to get something functional again, post some pictures of the finished item for members to see what you have been working on.


    Michael

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    moonbi nsw Aus
    Age
    69
    Posts
    364

    Default

    Michael, those thoughts are very fair and nobody should disapprove.
    The "spirit" behind the Forums is to help one another with an opinion, advise, knowledge or even something made. I have at times done small things for some people here and have been happy to do it just to help some one. I get really annoyed when you read a new post that has been put up by someone only wanting to sell goods that has only joined for that particular purpose. Selling trees about to be cut down is a classic one. People are expecting huge amounts of money for the tree but the value is only realised after the tree has been converted into seasoned timber which you won't know for a long period.
    Just do it!

    Kind regards Rod

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    melbourne australia
    Posts
    3,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    Once something made has been supplied to you, it is polite to acknowledge the assistance you received on the forum…
    Not just having something made, but also asking for info. As I alluded to in my post on the Hercus sub, I’m getting sick of people joining the forum, asking a question and failing to even acknowledge the replies. And it’s becoming more common. Latest example is a bloke in Canada signing up, asking a question about his Hercus 260, getting a bunch of replies, then disappearing without a trace.

    How hard is it to say “thanks” or click Like?
    Chris

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    I too, get a a bit cynical but when I see a new member join and then immediately request a service.

    Most services are provided by the courtesy, good nature and sometimes effort of established members.

    MetalWork related items for sale, Transport of goods, Request for a member to make something , are all ideas that came from the group.

    It was and is a part of the make up of the group. It is an Aussie trait to offer a hand or good turn to a fellow if its needed.

    However there is always someone willing to abuse the the hospitality of our group.

    As a mod, I am quite happy to use guidelines the group can come up with to advise new members seeking services.

    I believe that anyone joining the Forum and immediately asking for a service needs to be made aware of expectations of our members providing those particular free services.

    Perhaps it just general ignorance on the part of new younger members. Somebody unaware of the meaning of netiquette.

    I don't believe there is any harm in pointing these expectations out to those particular new members when a situation crops up.
    Do not just LIKE the OP,s post, get in there and put down what you think.

    It s up to you blokes, really. If you have a suggestion or another point of view , now is the time to put it forward.

    Grahame

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    York, North Yorkshire UK
    Posts
    6,439

    Default

    Hi Guys,

    Whilst I try to stay out of political arguments, the traits mentioned are common on the American forums !
    The attitude also seems to be "I make money out of this and you can't" and then you get fed a load of crap, usually pointing you in the wrong direction. The old addage "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" applies !

    I also notice that in general the US forums seem to becoming more and more advertising platforms rather than social communities.

    There are great bunch of guys on here, which are helpful and knowledgeable.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,540

    Default Thought of another one

    10. You will help attract interest to your request for help if there is an accurate (down to region + state level) location on your post. Some members prefer to only help around their locality. Also helps with when thinking about getting things to you.

    Michael

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    N.W.Tasmania
    Posts
    1,407

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    To start with, this is something I've been thinking about for many years and certainly not targeted at anyone in particular.

    As some of you will know, I've been hanging around this forum for a while and occasionally machine things for others when help is needed. I like doing it, I learn new things and try some stuff out. However, I do occasionally get annoyed by people who join, make all the right noises, get something made and then disappear. I've made some interesting parts for new members so can't complain about the making part but I do prefer to have a true picture of their intentions before putting in an effort.

    I wondered whether some guidelines might be worth having that could be posted as a sticky, that moderators could point new people requesting work at so that there are some common expectations with regard to getting things made. Below I've posted a few points for discussion/ inclusion in the list.


    1. Metal costs money. As a minimum, ask for the cost of (and offer to pay for) material up front and an estimate of labour too, particularly if you are on a limited budget. Don't assume your job will take 5 minutes and cost 50c in materials.
    2. Once someone has volunteered to help, it is up to the requestor to make contact and supply all the information about the job. Few things will damage your standing more than not supplying all the necessary information or changing the requirements once work has started.
    3. Qualifications, skill levels and equipment capabilities of members vary enormously. All care is taken but don't start with an expectation of flawless results. Member take on work for interest, to help out or make pocket money. Usually work is done for much less than commercial charges, so keep that in mind.
    4. Say up front if there is a deadline. Most members have day jobs, so work is done when time permits.
    5. Modifications to a requestor's parts are possible, but if the items to be modified are rare or expensive, say so up front. Some members don't want to work on 'good stuff' in case it is damaged.
    6. It would be nice if you became a contributing member of the forum, but if you just want something made, please say so, so it is clear. Remember that if you have been around for a bit (or are established on Woodwork forums), finding someone to help out may be easier.
    7. Making or repairing some items (such as firearms) may be illegal. Requests for that type of work may be removed and the requestor could be banned.
    8. If the work is to make or repair something so it can be sold, please say so. If on-going quantities will be required for commercial purposes, mention that too. Some members are happy to do one offs but don't want to make quantity, and vice versa.
    9. Once something made has been supplied to you, it is polite to acknowledge the assistance you received on the forum, and if it is to get something functional again, post some pictures of the finished item for members to see what you have been working on.


    Michael

    Sorry Michael, no pictures wanted, just a bit clumsy clicking on the wrong button. I absolutely agree with your sentiments, and am disappointed to hear that you have had some unfortunate experiences in this area if I have read between the lines of your post correctly.

    Rob.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropetangler View Post
    ...and am disappointed to hear that you have had some unfortunate experiences in this area ...
    Lucky so far Rob, although I have come close.

    This is more a set of thoughts that I've collected to avoid potential problems. I've had some interesting jobs come from this forum but there are a few pitfalls to watch for; a good proportion of this list came in response to a PM that another member sent to me. He was approached to do something by someone he did not know that well and asked me for any thoughts I might have on doing this sort of thing.
    After responding to him I realised that a few guidelines like this might keep others out of trouble too. No compulsion to follow any of these at all, but at least if common ground rules exist there is less chance of mis-understandings.

    Michael

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,656

    Default

    Seems Like a good idea to me, it is a bit sad that it has become necessary.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,651

    Default

    It would be nice to think that everything always goes smoothly, but in practice there's often a difference in understanding and expectations.

    As much as I hate to say it, something I think is missing from those guidelines is the topic of liability and warranty, and I guess also the legality of the use that someone is putting an item to. I'm sure there are actual legal rules etc around those, but I'm not familiar with them.

    I'll try and put in laymans terms what I mean, but will likely use incorrect "legal" terms!!

    To me its common sense that if I made some fittings for someone to their design and the design isn't up to the task and they fail - its not my fault. But if the welds fail what is situation? Does that change if there's subsequent damage or injury? Any difference whether or not I'm a certified welder or just picked up a MIG torch for the first time last week.

    If someone asks me to make some wheel spacers for their 4WD and gives me a PCD and relevant dimensions, is it up to me to point out they are likely illegal for road use? What if I wasn't aware of that?

    As a hobbyist I think it would be reasonable to take the approach of "all care - no responsibility", but I don't actually know what the legal situation is.

    My understanding is that it gets more complex as soon as payment for goods/services is involved, but possibly it doesn't actually make a difference legally.

    A situation from another forum a few years back - a member was making transmission adapter kits and selling them for not insignificant money (around $4K from memory). Concept was great, but the actual fabrication and welding not quite so good. A number of kits failed leaving the owners pretty p'd off and in many cases out of pocket after getting vehicles recovered and repaired.
    I won't go into my personal opinion on this particular one, but the general expectation of the purchasers was that they were buying a product for significant cost that was fit for purpose, but it wasn't. The member who was making/selling them stated that he wasn't doing it commercially but just to help other members out.
    Regardless of the legal situation - clearly a difference in understanding

    I definitely wouldn't want to see a situation where the forum rules prevented members from making a bunch of widgets and other members buying them, or having to fill in a bunch of paperwork so peoples butts were covered - but I'd also hate to see someone come unstuck from trying to help out or make a couple of dollars to support their hobby.

    I don't know what an appropriate line is, so just putting it out there for consideration.

    Steve

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    There may be many of you who are reading this thread and might think " It is nothing to do with me and may never affect me"

    The overall issue is a bit more than just protecting guys who respond to requests for work to be done.

    We have some other benefits here due to our membership of the forum.

    We have Members Transport, who some good soul is willing to accept a "parcel" from another member to deliver it , possibly without cost.

    Also there Marketplace where we can dispose of unwanted equipment without cost of advertising.
    ""
    Unfortunately there are those who join and have no interest in what we offer beyond the "Free services" and use what we offer and then disappear ,not to post again. As a mod I am beginning to see this on an increasing frequency.


    Al I am saying is that while it is great to help a member ,it should happen in the context of something like this :


    Oh! theres Grahame posting an ad to sell his welder. Grahames been around for a while and we "know" him and understand if there something that goes wrong , Grahame being a long term member would not risk his reputation,so if something goes astray Grahame being a forum member of good standing will put it right.

    On the other hand we have people joining up, and in the same post want a job, done, or have some member to transport something for free or want to sell something in our market place. What safeguards have you got when that stranger takes advantage, causes harm or loss and then disappears?

    All that is being stated above, is lets look after and help our existing members but at the same time protect them from being used by the unscrupulous who might seek to prey upon the good nature of them as forum members.

    Perhaps some sort of probation should exist there. Perhaps these freebies should be not be available until the new member has posted, say 10 posts to demonstrate some participation in our Forum.

    If you think you will be not affected,stop reading here and go back to your normal program. However if one of the above scenarios affects you and you have not had your say do not expect much sympathy.
    The world is full of scams and frauds and one can't go barely a week without some type of attemped scam over your phone.

    Its only a matter time until someone tries it on here.

    Thanks for reading this.

    Grahame

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,540

    Default

    On the liabilty aspect, it's up to the individual to sort out their own rules on that. There are some jobs that I won't touch, just because if it does go wrong, I don't want to be part of that - when I see what some of these car mod guys get up to on Youtube, there are times when I'm horrified at the standards that they apply. Maybe there does need to be something written about that, but my aim with this post was just to set out some starting points, so that people wanting things done have at least an idea of what 'our' (that is, the collective forum) expections are.

    As several people have said, they all seem reasonable but it is surprising how sometimes the reasonable does not translate into action. To give some back story against a few of the points I've raised,
    • Most times the bits I make are small, so material cost does not worry me greatly, but once someone was all go-go-go for me do some work for him but when I mentioned the cost of the material I'd just bought, he vanished. I used it for something else so no loss there, but if it was something special...
    • I've had hurry up messages from people wanting 'their stuff', when they haven't supplied all the information that I need. I can do without the agravation of angry messages.
    • Yet to have it happen to me here, but I have heard people complain about work being done for them for free (usually things like the finish). Gift horse and all that
    • One I have had is to start on something and then be told that it is needed in a timeframe shorter than I'd ever agreed to or even thought possible. I've also had people tell me they don't want something because they thought I was taking too long to get the result they wanted
    • I don't want to modify rare things as the risk of me being out of pocket if it goes wrong is not something I want to be involved with. Others may be happy to, but it's one of those 'up front' things.
    • People who show up just to get something done and then vanish are annoying. I don't mind helping out other members, but I think it only fair that if you just want something made, say so. It means that there are no expectations that in return for the work someone does, the favour will be returned. Maybe that will cost the requestor a little more sometimes, but maybe it also stops members feeling they have been taken advantage of
    • Every so often someone wants something dubious done, whether that is firearms or vehicle mods or something else. I think it only reasonable that moderators can take action if they think the forum's reputation could be damaged. Lack of stated policy may also leave the forum open to legal issues. Only fair to warn people that this sort of thing will not be tolerated. I did hear of another member who was approached by (undercover) police sussing out whether he would do (illegal) firearms mods.
    • Occasionally someone shows up wanting parts so they can sell something. No issues with that except that if a member does them a favour finding or making parts cheaply, they are effectively adding to the requestor's profit. Personally, I'd like to know that before I make a decision to help. Similarly, I don't want 'repeat orders' for parts when I thought I was doing a one off. I'm not set up for that and don't want the agravation. On the other hand, some members think a regular income like that is great. Horses for courses - nothing saying that you can't, just that requestors need to be up front about these things.
    • I've lost count of the number of times I've helped someone out and never known whether it worked or not (and as was pointed out, the same applies for advice given). I regard it as polite to acknowledge the efforts of others when they help you. I have relations that I am reluctant to do things for as I know from past experience that once having done these things I'll never hear about them again - not even to get the satisifaction of knowing that I fixed the problem.


    I've had far more positive experiences than negative so can't complain, and I've been lucky in my dealings but at the same time think that others may benefit from my experiences so that they don't get caught out. Sadly, there are those out there who will take advantage but I would hope with guidelines such as I have suggested, most problems can be avoided.

    Michael

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