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  1. #1
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    Default Trial and tribulations of remote area camping

    Join DateAug 2011LocationMelbournePosts4,541Post Thanks / Like


    Simon posted in another thread
    Just recently came back from a 4 week trip through the Flinders Ranges. Also been along the Tanami (in Feb), across the Simpson and many other remote places. I have always carried a 12V fridge and had ample power to run that and any lighting or other power devices. Did this all with solar and a second battery. A 150W panel gave me all the power I needed to stay anywhere for as long as I wanted. That was when I didn't tow a trailer.

    Now I have a camping trailer (with all the bells and whistles like inverter, hot water, ducted heating and lots of lighting etc) with dual lithium batteries and a 200W panel and a much larger fridge AND a freezer. Even without solar, I can camp for 4 -5 days before depleting the batteries. With solar I can stay indefinite. Still no need for a generator.

    I see people in caravans (often in full sun) and sit around with their Honda EU generators humming away. What the hell for I don't know. Dialysis?

    As for heating, used the heater once after we came back from a day hike and got caught in horizontal rain, soaked to the bone. Admittedly it was great to put the heater on to warm up and dry our clothes & shoes. That's the one time I have used it. If it's cold I put a jacket on and still enjoy the outdoors. Also, I often carry my own firewood from home. I use wood heater made from an LPG bottle which I made. I call it my camp coonara. It heats up an area very efficiently using much less wood than an open fire.

    It does annoy me how soft some people are. I still feel embarassed by our camping trailer after tent camping all my life. The technology and comfort is ridiculous although still modest compared to most others.

    Simon
    and as that thread was heading well away from the original topic, I thought it best to start a new thread. The subject of diesel heaters had arisen, and as you can see from Simons post he is not too keen on them. I agree that they can be noisey and sometimes smelly too, but I still feel that there is a place for them. The desert air can be very cold at night, and firewood scarce and hard to come by in a sustainable manner. I too have taken wood from home, NW Tasmania to The Big Red Bash at Birdsville, a pretty long haul when you think of it, and not something I would want to repeat. While I could usually just pull on another jumper or coat, my wife feels the cold much more than I do. For her, the bones ache, and she just feels miserable, and as we age that is something many of us will experience. During her working life, she spent time working in aged care organisations and she used to say that the residents all needed the heaters turned up to blazes, so much so that she found it stifling, but now she is getting like that herself. I can be quite comfortable even working outside at temperatures around 7 or 8ºC, come back to the house which is 18-20º, and she will tell me she is freezing. She is 5 years older than myself, and perhaps I will feel the cold more in the years to come too. I would say that the diesel heater is the difference between travelling or not travelling for us, particularly as we move northwards up through Victoria to warmer climates during our winter months.
    We are jealous of your recent travels Simon, this year was to be our trip to the Gulf country, and perhaps Cape York as well, but in the end the uncertainty of being able to get back home again put us right off. If we miss our slot on the Spirit, sometimes it is 4-6 months before there is another spot for a caravan, and friends have family who have missed out twice on coming back to Tasmania when a fresh Covid outbreak occurred in Melbourne.

  2. #2
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    Hi rope,

    I re-read my post and in hindsight I think I came on a bit strong. Sorry about that!

    I guess I'm torn between because in essence I think they are pretty cool pieces of kit but I just hate the sound they make.

    I guess if your heater enables your wife to be comfortable while enjoying the great outdoors then I think that's great.

    We're you at the BRB in 2019 by any chance?

    We were. One of the most awsome events I've ever been to.

    Cheers,

    Simon

    Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  3. #3
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    SWMBO loves camping/caravaning with her friends and being very capable at towing etc (she tows horse floats) has taken the caravan off with them a few times. Many years ago I used to be keen to go bush with a small tent on the motor bike, rode across Oz and around Tassie many moons ago but these days I'm much more of a home (shed) body.

    I do go down to the south coast with SWMBO and friends once a year for two weeks but thats mainly to keep her happy. Its a reasonable caravan park with Wifi on a beaut little inlet and its walls about 10ºC cooler than Perth at that time of the year so really I should not complain. The van is fully kitted out with all its own stuff but I hate the lead up/packing - 5 different folding chairs, endless bags of craft, doodads and gizmos, shoes, and wine (I don't drink) that I have to find space for in the car and van. Then when get home there's the unpacking etc. I bring it all in and it sits around the house for up to 3 months before its all packed away. I've lost count how many times I have called over the gear before it gets put away. Then, a few months after it all does get put away, like today - darling I can't find my XX shoes they must still be in the van. This requires uncovering the van and towing it out of the carport to get at the door - and of course shoes not there!

    Once we've set the van up at the caravan park with the dogs it's fine. I'm not a beach person but I like to take the dogs to the beach most days and I get lots of naps. Never been camping when its cold but I don't like being cooped up in the van when it rains so we have a 3m x 3m Gazebo thing with sides that gives more space. Several times we took two cars. I had my van with some chainsaw gear in it and did some chainsaw maintenance in the campground and then after a week left SWMBO at the camp ground and I went and stayed and milled timber at a friends farm about 45 minutes away from the campground. That was one of the best holidays I've ever had.

    Serious first world problem when I stop and think about it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonl View Post
    Hi rope,

    I re-read my post and in hindsight I think I came on a bit strong. Sorry about that!

    I guess I'm torn between because in essence I think they are pretty cool pieces of kit but I just hate the sound they make.

    I guess if your heater enables your wife to be comfortable while enjoying the great outdoors then I think that's great.

    We're you at the BRB in 2019 by any chance?

    We were. One of the most awsome events I've ever been to.

    Cheers,

    Simon

    Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
    Definitely no offence seen or taken Simon, they certainly can be a bit loud, ours has silencers on both air inlet and exhaust, and to be honest it could be a bit loud if we ran it all night and you were close by in a tent. We have not yet run it all night, I think that there would need to be snow on the ground before that happens, but it would probably be running till 2300 hrs before being shut down. we don't notice it in the van, other than the fan noise but no combustion noise to speak of.
    You are dead right about the heater allowing my wife to enjoy getting around the country and being comfortable if it gets cold, and as they say "If you have a happy wife, then you have a good chance of having a happy life". In answer to your question about the BRB in 2019, no we were not there, but we were in 2018, and we loved it too just like you did a year later. We had hoped to go there this year for Paul Kelly, but Covid stuffed that, but in a beautiful twist of fate, because of a cancellation of a show he was due to do somewhere on the big island, he was snapped up for four shows in Tasmania, Hobart 2 nights, Launceston and Devonport 1 night each and we snagged tickets to see him in Devonport, about 45 minutes from home. We were about 5 metres from centre stage, in a beautiful old City Hall, a small intimate setting and we had a great night
    I am in the process of upgrading the solar setup, but several factors in the past have conspired to force generator use in sustained hot weather. Initially we had AGM batteries X2 x110Ah. They were not performing and the local auto sparks felt that they were way down in capacity, so we replaced them with 2x Lead Crystal 110Ah. These too seemed to struggle, and then the inbuilt battery charger failed, and further tests revealed that the flexible roof mounted panels (2x 60W) had pretty suspect outputs, etc, etc. Current plans are to pretty well re-do the solar with better solar controllers, new panels on van and Ute, so that we can park the van in any available shade in hot areas, with the ute with >400W panels parked in the sun to charge everything up. That should get those electrons fair jumping out of their skins to keep the meat frozen and the beer chilled
    Your lithium batteries take a charge much better than pretty everything else, and your panels have probably been much better than my roof mounted panels, (I also have a folding portable 120W set of panels and they always seemed to work much better than the roof mounted panels) and a quick multimeter check confirmed that the roof panels had badly degraded.
    Cheers,
    Rob.

  5. #5
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    I've heard anecdotally that those flexible panels aren't great in terms of longevity. No personal experience with them though.
    About a year ago we upgraded from our rooftop tent setup - which we love and has never let us down - to a slide on camper setup for the ute.
    Not so much for the creature comforts - mainly to simplify storage and to provide a small enclosed area for inclement weather or those spots where the flies are so bad you just need some escape (at a minimum to avoid the extra protein while eating).
    The camper has 300W solar and just single 140Ah AGM battery. At present we're only running single 50L fridge but intend to add a second one as a dedicated freezer on longer trips (also provides some redundancy when heading properly remote).
    IMO something you definitely need with a solar install is a decent battery monitor. The camper has a Votronic one, which shows total battery charge as well as the instantaneous charge/discharge rate. We had a couple of weeks in Tassie in late May this year between COVID lockdowns, and even with the low winter sun and some dodgy weather on most days we were back to 100% charge by midday. The low ambient temp and load on the fridge probably balanced the low sun input.
    I purposely didn't bother connecting the camper to the ute electrics to see how it went stand alone - but my point is that the battery monitor allowed me to easily see that all was well, but if it hadn't been I could have taken steps to sort it out before it became an issue.

    I've been critical in the past of the vans and motor homes etc that turn on the diesel heater,at 4pm, close the door and put up the TV antenna. Its definitely not our style of camping as we prefer to be outside in the environment. I don't see the point in camping if you're spending all your time inside a closed box.
    I did however install a diesel heater in the camper prior to the Tassie trip, expecting that we would get some inclement weather at that time of year and be forced inside. We had one evening down south near Cockle Beach where it was about 2degC, and enough rain and hail to put the fire out. It was nice to fire up the heater and be able to read a book inside in comfort. The other time we used it was after ending up with some wet bedding from a night of heavy rain and high winds. I'd left one of the side windows in the canvas open a bit for ventilation as we usually do, but the with the canvas flapping from the wind ended up with some water coming in. It was great to be able to pull up later that afternoon, hang all the bedding up inside, turn on the heater and make a giant clothes drier!!
    I definitely don't see the need to run one overnight though. IMO if you're cold in bed - put some more clothes/blankets on!!

    Steve

  6. #6
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    I recently bought what was advertised as a 350W flexible solar panel. It was not the cheapest at $300. Same sized flexible panels can be had on ebay for $100 so after looking closely at their website and the fact that they were in Victoria, I pulled the trigger. A 350W panel should have produced our daily power requirements in only a few of sun.

    Anyway, away we went on our most recent trip to the flinders ranges and in full sun I was lucky to get 100W out of it. The same output I was getting from my trusty 150W panel, which I also took.... just in case.

    I was a bit disappointed to say the least even if it was winter. It prompted me to do some further investigation and calculations, which are always fun when camping.

    The panel is 1470 x 674mm in size. Lets call it 1sq metre of solar cells.

    Most solar panels are tested using a standard irradiance from the sun of 1000w/sq metre.

    So to get 350W from 1 sq metre would by definition require the solars cells to have an efficiency of about 35%. Solar cells with 35% efficiency to not exist yet!

    Best solar cell efficiency you can get is around the 23% or so and that's on big dollar high end panels, not $300 panels. It does appear that I have been conned, either by the seller or their supplier in China.

    I was disappointed that I didn't do the maths BEFORE purchasing. I would have steered clear but I saw the dimensions (which fitted well on the camper) and the all impressive 350W and figured not only are my power requirements met but I could sell power to my neighbours as well!

    Anyway, After I got back I contacted the seller and told them I was not happy with the output of the panel. They replied saying that I could return it at my expense. So, I proceeded to give them a lesson in solar cell effiency and that fact that it was a physical impossibility that my 350W panel was actually 350W. I also threw in the word ACCC into the mix.

    They refunded my money within an hour and didn't even bother with the return of the panel.

    In summing up;

    Flexible panels have their place but I would buy another one, even a legitimately rated one. They are just too delicate and easy to damage and scratch for camping. Maybe OK if permanently fixed and used to take advantage of a curved surface but if you have a choice I would go the "old fashioned" aluminium framed glass panel every time.

    Do the same maths that I just did. If the panel size and it's claimed output requires a cell efficiency greater than around 21% then it's probably a conn.

    Steve,

    I totally agree about the value of being able to monitor your batteries, SOC and power usage. Otherwise you are just flying blind and the first you know about an issue is when all your food (and drinks) are warm!

    Until recently, I had been camping with a 120aH AGM battery as my second battery powering our 50L fridge. That with the trusty 150W panel did pretty well. I had a very basic monitor that roughly estimated the SOC of the battery and displayed the charging current. It was OK and it's all I had.

    Now I have twin 120aH lithium batteries and a redarc battery manager. It tells me everything, total power going out, solar power generated for the day and data logged over the last 7 days including SOC by the hour for the last 7 days. It also has bluetooth, so I can look on my phone in front of the campfire to see these things. I can set it to give me a notification if the SOC gets below a pre-determined value.

    The other thing I notice with lithium batteries is how efficient the charging process is. I estimate a charging efficiency of close to 95%. If the solar panel generates 100 aH then the batteries increase their capacity by about 95aH.

    I was never able to measure this with my AGM battery but I suspect it would have been more like 75 - 80% efficiency.

    The lithium batteries were an optional extra. It nearly killed me forking out the extra for them but now I'm a total convert. Money well spent.

    Cheers,

    Simon
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  7. #7
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    Good to hear the Lithium’s are working well for you. I almost went down that track when we bought our camper, but in the end couldn’t justify the additional cost and decided I could do it myself later for less if need be.
    Very happy I had the second 150W panel fitted during the build though. I think it’s been the difference between chasing sun to get enough charge - and just not having to worry about it.

    Steve

  8. #8
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    Crikey you blokes have it like the Ritz! Many a tour out camping with schools I'd be under the coach in the luggage bin with nothing more than a sleeping bag. If weather was harsh maybe on the back seat just so I wasn't so cold..

    How I miss camping, body just not conducive these days, willing but need my comfort, old bones n aching muscles, not to mention trying to get back up into the wheelchair could prove to be a struggle especially those wee hours visits mother nature throws at us.

    Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    If you've got plenty of juice coming from the solar to charge up batteries etc, it might be worth buying some heated jackets/pants for the cold nights

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by NedsHead View Post
    If you've got plenty of juice coming from the solar to charge up batteries etc, it might be worth buying some heated jackets/pants for the cold nights
    Your starting to sound like my sister!

    Within reason, I don't mind feeling the cold. Besides, compared to when I first started camping we are so spoilt for choice when it comes to the amazing range of technical clothing that can be bought.


    Simon

    Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  11. #11
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    Forgot to add. While my camping trailer is absolute luxury (in my mind) I still enjoy multi day hikes where you only carry what's on your back. Hiking certainly keeps it real and a great way to experience minimalist camping.

    Simon

    Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonl View Post
    Forgot to add. While my camping trailer is absolute luxury (in my mind) I still enjoy multi day hikes where you only carry what's on your back. Hiking certainly keeps it real and a great way to experience minimalist camping.

    Simon

    Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
    Yep, thats my style of camping.

  13. #13
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    Good evening all, Lots of interesting comment here, Simon, I was pleased to hear that you were refunded for the panels that the vendor must have known were never going to deliver his claimed output. Our van has never performed satisfactorily from the solar power point of view, and I am endeavouring to get it sorted before any new trips. I now have 2 projects tied into one as i also have a fault in the pop top roof, which I hope to fix at the same time as I sort the electrics. We had purchased the van in 2017, it was then about 3 years old and was fitted with 2 x 60watt flexible panels glued to the roof, and a 10 Amp Morning Star MPPT controller feeding 2 x 110Ah AGM batteries. The main loads were an 80 litre Waeco Fridge, an EverKool FM55, a 55 litre refrigerated esky style chest fridge freezer, capable of and being used as a 50/50 fridge freezer and LED lighting. We had first seen the van after hearing of it when visiting The Melbourne Caravan and Camping Show in February, and had a look over it and come back to Tasmania to think it over. We eventually made an offer which was accepted a few weeks later, with the understanding that it could be stored at the manufacturers showrooms till we were ready to go on a trip in May/June. We arrived in Melbourne with a Patrol ute filled to the gunnels, loaded the van and set off in our first trip in her, - to The Kimberly!
    There was a set of folding portable panels 120W included and I came to the conclusion that they seemed more effective than the rooftop panels from monitoring things from the Victron 600 series battery monitor. When we were in Derby, it was unseasonably hot, for that time of year, around 38ºC, day after day instead of a predicted 33º or so, and the batteries just could not keep up. In a Caravan Park we were on mains power for three days before the inbuilt charger said that they were fully charged. I had an auto spark come in and check for issues as I had found and temporarily fixed a bad crimp on a battery lead, but he didn't come up with much else, and once away from civilisation I was running the eu20i generator for hours every other day to keep a decent charge in the batteries. When I got home my local autosparkie found that the batteries were well down on capacity, - more on this later, and we eventually went for a set of lead crystal batteries which were supposedly much improved over AGM.
    (Over half of this post has just been lost when I went to load some pictures, in spite of the auto saved sign flashing just before I made the move to load the photos. Talk about frustrating!)
    On our next trip the new batteries fared no better than the last lot, so upon our return, back to the auto-electricians to see what was going on, only to be told that the new Lead crystal batteries were testing barely half capacity, at about 15 months old. The distributor wanted to test the batteries themselves before coughing up for replacements, so by the time we got the results another 3 weeks had passed. They reported that the batteries were in like new condition, and when pressed for an explanation, they said that the normal test instrument used by auto-elecs to test car batteries did not give accurate indications as to the state of deep cycle batteries or other batteries not designed as starter batteries for IC engines. Perhaps my original AGMs were ok after all, but I will never know. By this stage I determined to test everything myself to see what was going on.
    On testing the flexible panels, I found one was badly degraded with open circuit voltages fluctuating all over the place, and generally low as well. The other panel was better, not fluctuating wildly, but was also generally low 12.7V and below in hazy bright conditions, - not full sun but although slightly cloudy, still bright enough to cast distinct shadows. I have since removed these bonded panels, what a job that was over a couple of big days. I plan to mount new rigid glass topped panels most likely on Unistrut channels. I am thinking of around 400 Watts capacity on our van, and something similar over the Patrol ute canopy. My idea here is to be able to make use of any shade for the van in hot conditions and still have power generation capacity by parking the ute in the sunshine, and connect to the van with an extension lead.
    I mentioned earlier that I had a fault in the pop top roof which I hoped to fix with the solar upgrades. I had noticed that rainwater pooled on the roof rather than draining off and away. Using a straight edge, I found that I had about 25mm of droop in the roof centre. The pop top roof has a perimeter of extruded aluminium, basically an upside down L shape with legs about 150mm±. Into the centre of the welded aluminium frame is a flat panel sandwich, made of closed cell foam with aluminium sheet bonded top and bottom. This sandwich assembly is bonded into the perimeter frame and gooped up to stop any leaks. The top roof skin is made of 3 sheets (I think) with a thin cover strip pop riveted over the joins. When I removed the bonded solar panels, I became aware that the bond between the foam and the top skin had failed, and additionally the pop rivets holding the cover strips had corroded to failure point, and the cover strips were loose for significant sections allowing pooled water to enter the 20 - 25mm roof space where the foam centre was. The bottom skin must have been well sealed, because water did not leak through in detectable quantities, although two pop rivets had shown rust signs.
    I am hoping that the Unistrut will not only hold the panels securely, but also allow me to pull the ceiling up with bolts through an internal cover strip of say 40 x 4 mm aluminium flat bar to the Unistrut on top. I could get a new roof but that is $5500 + fitting, so I would much rather try a work around fix first.
    Some pictures showing how I went about removing the bonded flex panels, (the 20 litre drum has about 15-18 litres of water giving the pulling power) and I used a paint scraper and prepsol to soften the mastic like adhesive holding the old panels. Also shown is the state of the rusty rivets on the cover strips.
    Attachment 393613

    Attachment 393615
    IMG_0538 2.jpg Finally got this lot to load, it has taken hours and I don't usually have major issues loading photos, but tonight it was not easy. Some of the trouble was of my own making, - trying to load .HEIC format photo files as my new phone saves image files, but the forum does not cooperate or warn you what the issue is either. The other issues were the Auto save feature not working properly, and the preview and image loading buttons just locking the screen while there was a message saying that I needed to delete or move excess PMs. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day,Cheers all.

  14. #14
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    What a saga.
    I don’t like your chances of pulling the roof up but hopefully I’m wrong. Does it flex much if you push up on it from the inside?
    If it’s just the join in the middle that’s an issue, it might be better/easier to just create a well sealed cap for that.

    One of the things I’m always conscious of is being able to maintain/troubleshoot things when away from mainstream facilities. From that aspect a fully bonded on solar panel is a of a design. I’d also be suss about their performance from a thermal perspective. Solar panel performance reduces with temperature increase, so unless that bonding material is thermally conductive there’s no way it can get rid of heat on a hot day.
    Traditional panels usually allow airflow to the back of the panel.

    Steve

  15. #15
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    Hi Rob,

    I hope your repair plans work out well for your roof.

    I agree with idea about having enough panels to charge even with overcast conditions. It can become stressful worrying about your energy requirements in remote areas with not enough sun etc.

    I assume your Victron can tell you your energy usage and solar input for the day?

    Perhaps some real world measurements with your camper set up in the backyard with the fridge running over a few days with and without solar input?

    Wrt solar efficiency and ambient temp, I have noticed a marked difference in output on a hot day just by cascading a bucket of water over the panel. Obviously if drinking water is scarce you wouldn't waste it doing that but if near a water source it's worthwhile.

    Keep us updated on the roof. I'm hoping you get it sorted.

    Simon

    Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

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