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  1. #1
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    Default I am tired of crap products

    I just read the post in General Engineering about not looking at the ways on your Chinese lathe.

    I believe that after the lockdown people now have a better understanding of those very people that we relied upon generally, for our cheap poorly made machinery. Are they likely to change sometime soon? I don't think so.

    Other countries,like Taiwan and Japan started off with fairly rough engineering tool manufacture but they improved to being among the worlds best.

    Going forward,I believe our best hope is in dealing with the Indians. There is heaps of potential for them to make decent quality engineering goods at reasonable cost and be encouraged to continue to improve them as time progresses.

    I do not think China will reclaim the ground it has lost. It has too may internal disasters going on simultaneously. More so,if the the 3 Gorges dam fails and Bank of China goes under.

    I think the next few years will be real interesting from our perspectives as engineering hobbyists.

    Grahame

  2. #2
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    Default

    I think India is still a generation off being a genuine competitor; the whole culture of unquestioningly following instructions from the level above MUST change if they are to have a chance.

    A family friend has a large brass hardware business and he's been saying for decades that it can be like dealing with robots; they will do exactly as you ask, regardless of whether there is something better.

    Dad was working for an Indian software company and he had the same experience
    "This code doesn't work properly"
    "We knew that"
    "Then why did you do it?"
    "Because that's what you asked for."

    Same with call centres; if you give them an answer that's not on the script, they can't deal with it.

    Until that culture changes and they are taught and encouraged to actually think rather than just do, the best you could hope for is decently made copies of what already exists, not innovation.

  3. #3
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by elanjacobs View Post
    ...Same with call centres; if you give them an answer that's not on the script, they can't deal with it.
    On that basis, my son has the perfect reply to offshore call centre scammers claiming to be from "the NBN".
    First thing he says is "This is Microsoft Technical Service", and they are completely flummoxed.
    Bill

  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    I just read the post in General Engineering about not looking at the ways on your Chinese lathe.

    I believe that after the lockdown people now have a better understanding of those very people that we relied upon generally, for our cheap poorly made machinery. Are they likely to change sometime soon? I don't think so.

    Other countries,like Taiwan and Japan started off with fairly rough engineering tool manufacture but they improved to being among the worlds best.

    Going forward,I believe our best hope is in dealing with the Indians. There is heaps of potential for them to make decent quality engineering goods at reasonable cost and be encouraged to continue to improve them as time progresses.

    I do not think China will reclaim the ground it has lost. It has too may internal disasters going on simultaneously. More so,if the the 3 Gorges dam fails and Bank of China goes under.

    I think the next few years will be real interesting from our perspectives as engineering hobbyists.

    Grahame
    I too dislike rubbish equipment, especially when it could so easily be made fit for purpose. There have been many reports of imported materials which don't measure up to spec, and for the life of me I can't see why our government permits this sort of thing to continue. I really believe that pretty well everything should meet basic fitness for purpose standards, and if the manufacturers won't comply, then they should not be able to export their rubbish to Australia. The same comment applies to locally made stuff too, if it doesn't measure up, then the buyer should be entitled to a full refund. If a product has already been used and is later found to be non compliant, then the supplier should have to make good, so if building products are found to have asbestos say, then the supplier should be up for the cost of all remedial work to have it removed and a suitable replacement product installed. If someone imports steel and they have a bar of 4140 say, which later proves not to be of that spec, they should make good, and if they refuse, all imports from that company banned until such time as they do make good. It should not be the fate of the hapless purchaser of non compliant materials to cop it sweet, while the deceitful party gets away with fraud and able to repeat the behaviour on some new victim. I have just had to replace a fridgewbhich was probably 40 years old before it failed and lost refrigerant. My local refrigeration man was saying that some current model imported fridges from China can expire in just a few years, compared to the older Australian made fridges which often lasted 40+ years. If they could make a fridge back in the 1970s which is still working today, why are so many new ones failing in 18 months or so? If everything had to meet a basic fitness standard, it may be that local manufacture would be more viable, and for that matter if all overseas manufacturers had to meet the same conditions that our local makers need to meet, like the proper disposal of waste, payment of wages and conditions of employment, (so no working in thongs in a metal foundry, or tipping wast into the local river systems if you want to export to Australia), then local manufacturers may have a better go of it, and the whole world would be better off, even if we do pay more than we do now, but there would be more quality to offset the cost increase. That's my two cents worth anyway, and I have no knowledge of the 3Gorges dam or operations within the Bank of China, so won't comment there
    Rob.

  5. #5
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    Default

    There is no question the Chinese can produce top quality products. Sometime ago, I was discussing with the Company which makes the multi-fix toolpost holders. It was of real concern to them that the Chinese have this reputation for producing poor quality products. The engineer made it clear, they produce products exactly according to specification and here in lies the problem. We are not the customer, the companies which import these products are the customer. So if the typical importer of lathes has second rate stock, blame them and retaliate by not buying.

  6. #6
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    Hi Guys,

    "He who pays the piper calls the tune" !

    Old English proverb !
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Unfortunately, as I'm sure most people on this forum would know, you get what you pay for.

    "If they could make a fridge back in the 1970s which is still working today, why are so many new ones failing in 18 months or so?"
    The big corps that run the world don't want you buying a fridge every 40 years, they want you buying one every 2 or 3 years.
    That's because the whole worlds economic system is based around constant growth, which means an ever increasing population, constantly buying the latest fashion/consumer goods.
    That's why there are so many mags and TV shows about home improvements and makeovers etc. Its all about keeping the money moving from Joe Publics account into the rich (so called Elite) peoples accounts

    Getting back to cheap machines, I remember 35 years ago going to an Engineering expo and drooling over a brand new Colchester lathe. (maybe a Triumph 2000 - cant remember) anyway, back then, the price for a new basic machine was, I think, around $32K (might have been $35K ) I wasn't earning that much in a year and I was on what was considered to be good money for a fitter back then.

    So, whilst we all like to grizzle about the quality (or lack of it ) in the cheap imported machines, there wouldn't be many on these types of forums that could afford to buy a new, "quality" machine. So that leaves us with old worn out "Quality machines" that are usually close to their use by date or a new (or almost new) cheap machine that requires a bit of fixing up.

    I reckon if you went along to the xyz china machine tool company with a full spec of a lathe similar to a Colchester, DSG or what ever, and asked them to build you x amount of them to that spec, it wouldn't be a problem at all. It would also cost you a lot more than $7k too.

    peter




  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by topari View Post
    There is no question the Chinese can produce top quality products. Sometime ago, I was discussing with the Company which makes the multi-fix toolpost holders. It was of real concern to them that the Chinese have this reputation for producing poor quality products. The engineer made it clear, they produce products exactly according to specification and here in lies the problem. We are not the customer, the companies which import these products are the customer. So if the typical importer of lathes has second rate stock, blame them and retaliate by not buying.
    I don't disagree with you either Topari, in my previous post I was thinking more of the foreign exporters who falsely declare a product compliant, like a steel exporter who says he is sending 4140, and instead ships something else which does not match the 4140 specification, or someone sending vinyl flooring with significant asbestos content or even worse the mob selling milk powder with melamine content. The Chinese can absolutely produce high quality goods, and if importers only specify on price and not fitness for the purpose the machines are intended, then it is the importer who is at fault

  9. #9
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    Default

    Half the problem is that many people who lament the quality of the generic import will, in the same breath, say that everything else costs too much. You can't have it both ways.

  10. #10
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    Hmmm. I'm rather wishing I'd just stayed away from this forum at this point.

    I was under no illusions when I bought the SECOND HAND Chinese lathe that I was getting a DSG or Graziano. I bought it because it was less than half the price of a new one, was only a year or two old, had all the change gears etc and had some tooling with it. I suppose at the time I hoped that the HAFCO label on the front might make it a percentage point or two higher quality than some of the other sellers at the time, but it was by no means a primary driver. I've never been under the illusion H&F cheaper chinese stuff is 'high quality'. The price I paid at the time was what I would have paid for any of the 60 year old lathes on the market, the difference was that it was 6 foot shorter, a tonne lighter, and didn't require a crane truck to move or me to spend 2 years rebuilding it right off the bat just to fix up 50 years of wear and abuse from hard production work. I've spent a bit of time recently looking at what's floating around in the S/H market, and not much has changed - Dulux refurbs at ridiculous prices, blurry photos of rusty heaps of crap with standing water puddles in them that may or may not be gems underneath if you've got plenty of days off work to go check each one out, plenty of stuff of a size I simply don't have the space for, and a handful of small Hercus/Sheraton machines that, let's be perfectly honest were built to a price back then, and aren't exactly a giant leap forward from the 12x36 class of import especially given the prices asked for machines with 40 years of use on them, although probably a reasonable step forward from the 9x20 import class.

    At the time I bought mine I also had a specific need to be able to swing 12", meaning that size of machine wasn't going to work for me. There aren't a lot of high quality options that fall into that 13x26 to 14x40 range out there, which was the envelope I wanted and that I had space for. So, I bought mine on the basis that at least I'd have A lathe, and I could always sell it on if I found something better later, and by using it I'd hopefully gain some idea of what to look for in the replacement. Time marches on, and here we are, many parts made on it later.

    The reality is that mine has worked just fine for what I've wanted to with it, and will continue to do so. I was just surprised to find how bad they'd actually made it when I saw the slides - it would have been better had they not attempted to 'scrape' anything and simply left it as machined, not to mention costing them 50c less in labour cost. Bizarre. The problem is, now that I've seen the way it is, I feel obliged to fix it so that it doesn't become a big problem later - which was actually the driving force behind my post. As the old saying goes, don't fix things that aren't broken. If you don't look, you can't find things you consider broken. I also had the thought I might share some tips on 'the wrong way" to improve it as I go (I'm sure I'll do it 'wrong') but feels like that might be a waste of my time.

    But I do have to address the comments about consumers shopping purely on price driving quality down that always seem to appear with respect to Chinese gear...

    One might assume without prior knowledge that H&F, given the price premium, would be a decent quality level of import product, compared to the other available options - after all, you can find other retailers selling what appears to be the same machine for close to half the price. But consider this - given that H&F is at the top end of pricing for that machine, what is the distinguishing factor between their product and the one that costs half as much? As the end consumer, you have nothing but marketing to go on, like the old generic "Made in XXXX to our design in Australia." What is that design, exactly? And how is the level of quality enforced? This is not just applicable to products made in China, either, this is a problem created by marketing types the world over.

    The consumer is constantly drowned in marketing and advertising, whatever the product may be, and oftentimes the marketing is simply an out and out lie. So, if the marketing literature is untrustworthy, how does one then make a decision? Product X costs $500, and is, according to the literature 'carefully refined with the optimum angles to bring the greatest of enjoyment yadda yadda yadda', product Y costs $250. The only problem is, looking at the two side by side, they look the same, they weigh the same, any specifications given are the same. And I'd be surprised if anyone here hasn't previously been bitten by paying an extra X percent for something because it was supposedly better quality/Australian made or owned/insert marketing line here, only to discover it's exactly the same crap as everyone else is selling. You're down to 'public opinion' to work out which to go for, and that's usually about as helpful as a chocolate teapot whether the impending purchase is biscuits, TVs, lathes, cars or hyperspace bypasses. You'll always find someone who's unhappy with their new hyperspace bypass, someone who's rapt with it, someone who objects on principle, and someone who suggests that maybe you just want a galactic walking track.

    At this point, I have an Italian made (or is it? who knows) OML vice on the way to me now (surprisingly, ordered through the Australian distributor at a price that equates to a little less than what I would have paid living in Europe). After fighting with my flogged out old vice for far to long, I didn't want to chance an import vice that could be ground out of square, hollow and flexy in the castings, etc, etc. I wanted a vice that was just spot on, so that I know that any issues I'm having come from the wear in my Bridgeport clone, and I suspect I may win the award for most spent on a vice by a hobbyist on this forum, given that the guys importing Kurts etc were doing group buys IIRC. What worries me is that despite OML (and Gerardi, very similar vices also made in Italy) having a stellar reputation for being immaculately made to the extent that guys running multiple units on CNC machines don't need to bother match grinding them, when it finally arrives it may just be exactly the same thing as Asset sell for $595+GST, warts and all...

    As has been said multiple times, China is perfectly capable of making extremely high quality gear - after all, they make products for a large percentage of big companys these days, at all levels of industry. It's fairly rare to pick up ANYTHING these days, no matter the "big brand" on the front, and it be made somewhere other than China. Unfortunately, even with the "big brand" on the front, it seems to be pot luck as to whether you actually get some of their high quality gear or not, which makes it a lot harder to part with extra cash for the "quality" brand. More and more, "price" does not correlate with "quality", which gets really frustrating when you ARE looking for quality.

    Little examples of the above - 6 months ago, my Makita BHP458 (made in China) cordless drill melted the (plastic) brush holder. Not a big deal, really, but given that this was the most powerful professional level cordless drill they sold at the time, and has been fairly lightly used at home (especially in comparison to the various Milwaukee drills I've seen on site working 6-8 hours a day non stop, and being dropped out of scissor lifts), I was rather surprised. I'm now wondering how long it'll be before I have to replace it again. My Makita 540W 5 inch angle grinder bit the dust last year, after over 10 years of HARD service. Fair enough - it was the entry level Bunnings model, made in China, and it's earned it's retirement. I splashed out and replaced it with one of the most expensive 1400W 5 inch Makitas (made in China). Heaps of grunt, soft start is nice, but it's already starting to sound just a little off, and I have a sneaking suspicion it's not going to make it much past the warranty period.

    If it does, in fact, die at that point, it's going to be real hard next time to justify spending 6 times as much to buy a Makita vs an Ozito or an Ebay special... Sad, given old Makita's used to be impossible to kill. Until recently my parents had a heavy old corded Makita drill that had been run over by a payloader, and after replacing the trigger still worked just fine (albeit with a bit of a whip at the end of long drill bits). Apparently not bushfire proof though.

    It's also worth noting, over the years I've had some real crap products, like faulty genuine car parts among others, where the country of origin wasn't China - or India. In fact, if I think about it long enough, I've probably had some form of rubbish from almost every country on the planet - including this one.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanjacobs View Post
    I think India is still a generation off being a genuine competitor; the whole culture of unquestioningly following instructions from the level above MUST change if they are to have a chance.

    A family friend has a large brass hardware business and he's been saying for decades that it can be like dealing with robots; they will do exactly as you ask, regardless of whether there is something better.

    Dad was working for an Indian software company and he had the same experience
    "This code doesn't work properly"
    "We knew that"
    "Then why did you do it?"
    "Because that's what you asked for."

    Same with call centres; if you give them an answer that's not on the script, they can't deal with it.

    Until that culture changes and they are taught and encouraged to actually think rather than just do, the best you could hope for is decently made copies of what already exists, not innovation.
    This culture is just as bad here at home! Not recent but decades, my years seeing mates and others in Gov jobs bundy on walk out the back door after doing their work in 20mins off to surf, play golf etc etc.
    Standards of many a tradie have been discussed on many a forum all local.

    So do we A- create a worldwide monitory system where ALL are paid equally regardless of education, status?
    B- create a worldwide standards for all production? Funny but I was under the impression we had this.
    C- cease all dealings with OS manufacture and start producing here at home again. Which of course will mean higher prices because we have not learnt anything of our own mistakes of tge past, which forced companies tp go off ehore!

  12. #12
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    Why do so many people spend so much time worrying about where other people spend their money?
    Got an iphone? What car do you drive?(although that no longer matters) far more important than where your lathe comes from.

    How long did Japan take to go from "jap crap" to "worlds best" to "to expensive to buy from"? BTW where do you think MAZAK lathe castings come from?(or at least they did 30 years ago! so I guess they must be crap)

  13. #13
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    Wonder how long it will take Australia to come up to an acceptable level before they again out price themselves

  14. #14
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    There have been many reports of imported materials which don't measure up to spec, and for the life of me I can't see why our government permits this sort of thing to continue. I really believe that pretty well everything should meet basic fitness for purpose standards, and if the manufacturers won't comply, then they should not be able to export their rubbish to Australia.

    So you want a Nannie State to look after you?

    Mind you, I agree about the sometimes outrageous mark-ups you get with local distributors who are selling the same imported stuff without even checking that it runs.

    I buy from a few Chinese/ebay vendors who have proven their merit over the years. MUCH better than some of the H&F stuff I bought at first.

    Cheers
    Roger

  15. #15
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    Hi Ray, Guys,

    Quote Originally Posted by wheelinround View Post
    C- cease all dealings with OS manufacture and start producing here at home again. Which of course will mean higher prices because we have not learnt anything of our own mistakes of the past, which forced companies to go off shore!
    This seems to be the direction that the UK is heading following Brexit !

    We shall see...
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

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