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  1. #16
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    I have to say, when the Chinese want to, they can produce insane quality.

    7 years ago I bought a cheap ($170 + postage) mechanical skeleton watch out of China, not expecting anything spectacular. It has never been serviced since yet still keeps time to 5 seconds/day (checked with a watch timing app that measures the beats of the movement); that is borderline chronometer level (read: should cost at least 10x as much)

    It's still being sold for US$240 Skeleton watch 2::skeleton watch::skeleton watches::skeleton wristwatch::skeleton tourbillon watch::skeleton flying tourbillon watches I dunno how they does it, but they does it.

  2. #17
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    As far as I can see nothing has changed in the last 50+ years.
    I can remember my father complaining about some woodworking tools he bought in the mid 60`s from Japan. Cheap crap roughly covers his words. It was also the first time I heard the "you get what you pay for" phrase.

    Nothings changed apart from the country of manufacture.

    Tony

  3. #18
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    Willowbank QLD
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    For those that are sick of crap products, and I will put myself in that category, I think it may be an interesting question of who is to blame. Lets look at a few examples.

    If I buy something online from an overseas supplier and it is crap, I am effectively the importer and therefore the one to blame. It is up to the importer to verify the supply chain and quality of the goods. If I then sell this because I am not happy, I am to blame as a reseller of crap imported products.

    If I buy from an Australian store and it is not fit for purpose I have recourse under Australian consumer law. The importer has imported it but they have a legal obligation to make it right. The fit for purpose part can get a bit tricky. If I buy a $2000 lathe and it works but not as well as a $10 000 lathe, in my opinion I am to blame for expecting Rolls Royce features in a Great Wall price range.

    If I buy from an Australian store and find the quality to be inferior, I should be the one that needs to reconsider where I do my shopping. We need to ask the question of why some of the big stores in Australia are selling crap products. For me the answer is the big stores are the successful ones because they are selling what the consumer wants to buy, and that is cheap products. It is not up to the government to stop these stores selling cheap inferior products. The only thing the government should ensure is that the product complies with our safety standards. In my opinion the penalties should be steep for people who import unsafe goods and on sell them, this includes Joe public from the first example.

    As a consumer it is up to us to support any business that provides products that we are happy with and more importantly tries to help the customer when things go wrong. If we continually buy with the number one criteria being price we all are to blame. There is a place for cheap disposable goods. For one I would prefer to pay for a disposable coffee cup from the van at a swap meet than a fine Wedgewood cup that I am not going to want to carry around all day. For some the Wedgewood has its place.

    I think we need more praise for local businesses that look after there customer and are honest in there dealings. Also let others know if you buy a product that exceeds your expectations.

    Steve

  4. #19
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    Toowoomba Qld
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    Unless you can change the general public's mindset and get them to think that things should be repaired instead of replaced then cheap and disposable will always be an option.

    Cheap machinery has its place, most hobby machinists couldn't afford to buy "quality" machines new, "old iron" is only affordable because people have options and there is less demand in the used market as the option for cheaper new machinery is there. Neither of these machines are put it in the workshop and start using them tho.

    I have a mix of stuff in my workshop and some times you need to ask yourself what you could reasonably expect for what you pay. Some times your not buying a completed product, your buying a kit that they just assembled for you to show how it goes together. You pull it apart, finish it and put it back together. Some times your buying a project that you need to rebuild and repair. Don't want to do the work? go spend a heap more on a finished product.

    My pet peeve is when your buying something locally to support the local guy and it's exactly the same thing you can buy online for 1/10th of the price. The local guy hasn't added any value, hasn't quality checked anything, just ordered it online and then sold it to you at a markup when it came in.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterSpoon View Post
    My pet peeve is when your buying something locally to support the local guy and it's exactly the same thing you can buy online for 1/10th of the price. The local guy hasn't added any value, hasn't quality checked anything, just ordered it online and then sold it to you at a markup when it came in.
    Mine as well !

    There is a shop locally that does just that ! I've been in several times and all he has is rack upon rack of stuff he gets from Ebay or China.

    I broke a good 1/2" Dormer drill trying to drill a bolt hole in a steel gate frame. The gate moved and trapped the bit. Since he was around the corner I went in to see if he had one. Apart from the fact that he wanted over £20 for it and then got stroppy when I took it back because it bent. I now just look and shake my head !
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  6. #21
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    The "average" consumer doesn't get a good return on most of their machinery/tool purchases. They will use most tools for one off projects and then it just sits in the garage collecting dust. For these folks the cheapest thing that could work is the right move. If you run a large business that will spread the cost of a tool over a bazillion production runs, then it makes sense to pony up and spend a bunch up front on a custom made machine that won't break down mid run. These machines typically are not bought at the local store, and it can be quiet a process acquiring them.

    The current system only sucks if you are a "prolific" hobbyist, or a small shop. These folks will tear through the cheap machinery in no time, but most likely don't have the capital for the big custom made machines. As far as I can tell, servicing this market is a lot of work for little return...which sucks but I don't see a great alternative.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    Hi Ray, Guys,



    This seems to be the direction that the UK is heading following Brexit !

    We shall see...
    Oh UK headed by that way long ago during/after Thatcher rein of terror, they slowly had it pegged until they entered the EU. Down hill fast they went yet again. Brexit will take a long while to get over as will Asia for many countries. However many can not see tthe lesson of Brexit or Asia or USA where reliancee on foreign lands to produce and manufacture in eventuality rule consumer buying.

    Many hound importers of goods but forget it is consumer who have demanded cheaper goods to be manufactired no matter what they be.

    If we could only get to grips with our own greed, cease they strangle hold of powers by over authoritarian organizations and get on with the job here at home.

    Look at progess in Asia or parts rthere of, communism rich & powerful, living the dream at our expense. By this I mean our resources, the theft of life and a future for generations to come!
    America and Europe is no different and are doing the same yet WE allow it by wanting what we believe they have.

    Covid is a lesson for the world to learn from! I wonder if we will?

  8. #23
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenLightly View Post
    The "average" consumer doesn't get a good return on most of their machinery/tool purchases.
    This depends on the definition of "return". If "return" only means direct recovery of the cost of the tool based on the value of the product made then I agree, but if the value of the experience or the cost of similar expenditure on an alternative experience then almost any tools can provide considerable return.

    If a DIYer spends $100 on a tool and makes $50 worth of product but also gets a few hours of a satisfying experience then the cost of the tool has probably been recovered. The alternative expenditure could have been a family dinner including an argument with an "in-law", or getting cold and wet on a boat, which could be far less satisfying. This does not apply to someone using tools for a living.

    For the folks that buy expensive tools they hardly or never use, some people just like collecting stuff, whether its nice tools, stamps or Elvis memorabilia, does it really matter?

    Maybe I have just been lucky but I have been amazed at the cost recovery on my very cheap tools. 15 years ago I needed to break up a 3 step concrete set of stairs. I looked up the cost of hiring a small (expensive) jackhammer and it was going to cost about $60 for a half day hire, and the cost of buying a cheap (OZITO) jackhammer was about the same.

    Contrary to expectations after using it to break up the stairs I have used it for countless jobs. The thing has paid for itself many times over. Same applies to my first "very budget end" angle grinder which is now more than 20 years old has had a thrashing including cutting up countless bricks and limestone blocks, I can't believe it's still on its first set of brushes.

    Of the dozens of cheap tools I have bought, the only one that I thought "well that was a piece of crap" was a budget end biscuit cutter where most of the plastic knobs vibrated or broke off after a few uses. I still use it after replacing the knobs.

    The other thing is tool sharing. I'm from a large (9 sibling family) and we share many of our tools so while they may not get used by the original buyer, overall they get a fair workout.
    My brother is currently using the OZITO Jackhammer to removed the plaster off the brick walls of a couple of rooms of his house. Conversely I still have his Festool ROS sort of on permanent load since about 2008!

  9. #24
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    Hi Jen,

    Welcome to the forums ! Nice to see female participation !
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    This depends on the definition of "return". If "return" only means direct recovery of the cost of the tool based on the value of the product made then I agree, but if the value of the experience or the cost of similar expenditure on an alternative experience then almost any tools can provide considerable return.

    If a DIYer spends $100 on a tool and makes $50 worth of product but also gets a few hours of a satisfying experience then the cost of the tool has probably been recovered. The alternative expenditure could have been a family dinner including an argument with an "in-law", or getting cold and wet on a boat, which could be far less satisfying. This does not apply to someone using tools for a living.

    For the folks that buy expensive tools they hardly or never use, some people just like collecting stuff, whether its nice tools, stamps or Elvis memorabilia, does it really matter?

    ...


    The other thing is tool sharing. I'm from a large (9 sibling family) and we share many of our tools so while they may not get used by the original buyer, overall they get a fair workout.
    My brother is currently using the OZITO Jackhammer to removed the plaster off the brick walls of a couple of rooms of his house. Conversely I still have his Festool ROS sort of on permanent load since about 2008!
    1. Yea I tend to miss the value of intangibles (the actual day to day experience) when I go full homo-economicus. The difference between a pleasant weekend project and an aggravating one may be worth a couple hundred bucks, especially if you are a busy person with enough stress as it is.

    2. Tool sharing is great, I'm a big fan. I think someone will make a lot of money one day making a tool sharing service - they just need to figure out how to make people behave and treat their borrowed tools well. This is more of a social problem than a technical one, so you might even see this happen outside of silicon valley. If they can get people to mostly behave when using other peoples property (Airbnb), they may figure out a good way for tool sharing too.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenLightly View Post
    2. Tool sharing is great, I'm a big fan. I think someone will make a lot of money one day making a tool sharing service - they just need to figure out how to make people behave and treat their borrowed tools well. This is more of a social problem than a technical one, so you might even see this happen outside of silicon valley. If they can get people to mostly behave when using other peoples property (Airbnb), they may figure out a good way for tool sharing too.
    This already exists...it's called hiring There are plenty of tool hire places everywhere and, yes, they make plenty of money doing it.

  12. #27
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    So what do we do?

    Starting a business here is not cheap even prior opening the doors! Backyard business is these days our of the question no one has in modern housing estates a back yard let alone side gate for access.!
    Ok so buy in an old suburb or a small acreage $60k+ to build shed, council 7 neighbours who demand we buy more locally halt the process because it doesn't fit their lifestyle! No matter the business. Supply chain treat small business like lepers! Unions demand same rates as if you were multi national even if no union !
    Ask yourselves whats killing off our industries!

    Edited to correct poor keyboard skills better known as fat fingers LOL

  13. #28
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    Ok so buy in an old suburb or a small acreage $60k+ to build shed, council 7 neighbours who demand we buy more locally halt the process becasuse it doesn't fit their lifestyle!

    Buy old farm with large barn. Repair barn. Shut barn doors so neighbours can't see in.
    Also get heavy 3-phase power installed, even if you have to argue with the supply Co. Farm, pumps, etc.
    Get there 1st so neighbours are the new-comers.

    It works.

    Cheers
    Roger

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcaffin View Post
    Ok so buy in an old suburb or a small acreage $60k+ to build shed, council 7 neighbours who demand we buy more locally halt the process becasuse it doesn't fit their lifestyle!

    Buy old farm with large barn. Repair barn. Shut barn doors so neighbours can't see in.
    Also get heavy 3-phase power installed, even if you have to argue with the supply Co. Farm, pumps, etc.
    Get there 1st so neighbours are the new-comers.

    It works.

    Cheers
    Roger
    It's not the old neighbours usually but city slicker after the green dream who are the ones who destroy the dream for others.

    As for "Old barn" full of asbestos roofing or walls yep its sure to keep things interesting.

  15. #30
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    Regarding Indian products, my experience has not been super great. I purchased a brand new Crompton Greaves (made in India) 240v 4-pole electric motor to replace the one which died on my Hercus 9" lathe. It works well but it has this terrible deep slow wooooob wooooob wooooob sound while operating. The original old Mcoll motor was practically silent in comparison and I wish I would have spent the money getting it repaired than opting for a new unit. I hate the bloody thing and will replace it at some point purely on account of the noise it makes.

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