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Thread: Bush Fires !

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by YBAF View Post
    Recommended reading - The entire article.. Fires are not where the heat is, they?re where the fuel is « JoNova

    From what I see Jo Nova is just being very reductio-ad-adsurdum to stress the point that No Fuel = No Fire. With a very fuel deficient fire you have a low intensity easy to manage fire. Start increasing the fuel load and the fire intensity increases. Anybody who has ever built a camp fire or used a wood stove understands these basics.


    .
    Today in NSW, a day of milder weather, the major fires are at advice level. Compare that to a few days ago when hot dry winds produced extreme fire behaviour. The fuel levels haven't changed, its the weather that's driving the extreme fire behaviour.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony_A View Post
    Today in NSW, a day of milder weather, the major fires are at advice level. Compare that to a few days ago when hot dry winds produced extreme fire behaviour. The fuel levels haven't changed, its the weather that's driving the extreme fire behaviour.
    Yes, its summer in Australia. We get lots of fires when the wind blows hot. The first European settlers wrote how fires were basically uncontrollable until the hot winds died down.

    I think the 1851 fires were the biggest of Australia’s recorded history, though for sheer land area burnt the 1974 fires are likely the biggest. How hard the fire is to fight when them hot summer winds blow has a lot to do with fuel load. That’s why we do burn-offs.

    Lets have a look-see at the CSIRO publication “Grassfires, Fuel, Weather and Fire Behaviour. P. Cheney, A. Sullivan” (book is aimed at farmers, etc)

    Page 133: “...Whatever the cause of the fire, its intensity is determined by the amount of fuel the landholder chooses to retain on the property. The landholder effectively owns the fuel and so determines whether the fire can spread and how intense it will be. In other words, the landholder owns the fire. How much damage a fire might do is a business decision for the landholder - who really cannot put the blame on someone else!...”




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  3. #48
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    Having a look-see at the NSW fire services map today and I see there are still some fires listed as out of control.

    https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/fire-info.../fires-near-me

    Of note on the map is the over lay of the burnt areas coloured in grey over the green areas. I wonder what those green areas are on the map...





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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by YBAF View Post
    Page 133: “...Whatever the cause of the fire, its intensity is determined by the amount of fuel the landholder chooses to retain on the property. The landholder effectively owns the fuel and so determines whether the fire can spread and how intense it will be. In other words, the landholder owns the fire. How much damage a fire might do is a business decision for the landholder - who really cannot put the blame on someone else!...”

    .
    Fuel reduction burning certainly has an important role to play in helping to reduce the impact from wildfires, I've been involved with many fuel reduction burns both as a firefighter and in planning for these burns. I also have over 20 years experience with wildfire working for Forestry and Parks. I've worked in many roles on fires, from firefighter to senior roles in major incidents. I've seen fuel reduced areas stop wildfires and I've also seen fires burn straight through them. The degree of protection a fuel reduced area provides is influenced by the nature of the vegetation and how quickly fuels return and weather conditions on the day. To start delving into this in detail will take a lot more than this post allows.

    What I have a problem with is the conservative media outlets promoting the message that fuel reduction burning will solve our bushfire problems. In my experience it definitely wont but this message gives our politicians an easy option to appear as if they are doing something to prevent such catastrophes reoccurring rather than making hard decisions. See article below from a number of retired fire and emergency management chiefs.
    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...climate-change

    We've always had fires and summers for me typically meant several weeks away from home firefighting. I've seen the the effects (as a fire fighter) of increasingly devastating wildfires first hand. Our last two bad fire seasons were the result of very dry conditions and a series lightning storms creating multiple ignitions(sound familiar). In spite all the resources now at our disposal fires are becoming harder to manage.
    If this is the new norm we need to be having a considered conversation on where we live and how we manage fire in that context, not promoting simplistic band aid solutions.

  5. #50
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    Proud Hercus 260 owner.

    Ratty 05/2004 -05/07/2010 COOPER 01/08/1998-31/01/2012

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony_A View Post
    Fuel reduction burning certainly has an important role to play in helping to reduce the impact from wildfires, I've been involved with many fuel reduction burns both as a firefighter and in planning for these burns. I also have over 20 years experience with wildfire working for Forestry and Parks. I've worked in many roles on fires, from firefighter to senior roles in major incidents. I've seen fuel reduced areas stop wildfires and I've also seen fires burn straight through them. The degree of protection a fuel reduced area provides is influenced by the nature of the vegetation and how quickly fuels return and weather conditions on the day. To start delving into this in detail will take a lot more than this post allows.

    What I have a problem with is the conservative media outlets promoting the message that fuel reduction burning will solve our bushfire problems. In my experience it definitely wont but this message gives our politicians an easy option to appear as if they are doing something to prevent such catastrophes reoccurring rather than making hard decisions. See article below from a number of retired fire and emergency management chiefs.
    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...climate-change

    We've always had fires and summers for me typically meant several weeks away from home firefighting. I've seen the the effects (as a fire fighter) of increasingly devastating wildfires first hand. Our last two bad fire seasons were the result of very dry conditions and a series lightning storms creating multiple ignitions(sound familiar). In spite all the resources now at our disposal fires are becoming harder to manage.
    If this is the new norm we need to be having a considered conversation on where we live and how we manage fire in that context, not promoting simplistic band aid solutions.
    A fire expert! Hmmm... do you know what the green areas are on the NSW bushfire map that I linked to in my previous post ? https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/fire-info.../fires-near-me

    The 1974/75 fires burnt out around 15% of the Australian land mass. How do the current ‘global warming’ caused fires stack up in burn area ? Do you know the reasons the CSIRO fire scientists gave as why the 1974/75 fires were so big ?


    As to our current fire ‘managers’...
    I been on me farm for over 30 years now. My farm land area is a bit smaller then when I started as a lot of my lease country were turned into National Park. When I had the lease country I did all the fire management. The near annual fires, either burn-offs or wildfire, I controlled off fire breaks mainly by myself with a bulldozer and a fire lighter. Now, when the fires come through the park area National Parks and the state and volunteer fire fighters do the fire fighting.

    The most recent fire that affected The National Park and my land had in attendance: 3 helicopter water bombers; 1 observation helicopter; over 12 state, volunteer, and Parks fire fighting vehicles; Various fire officials up to the regional boss fellow; It were so epic, I think Charlton Heston might of been there somewhere as well. All this, to ‘fight’ a fire on land that I used to manage the fires on mainly by me-self....... So, do you think the fire problems on my farm are global warming or just plain green bureaucratic idiocy ?




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  7. #52
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    Mate who I mentioned earlier who got burnt out at Bilpin, (or at least his ex), said there's quite a bit more to that property in that first part of that story. Wouldn't take too much on face value there. One thing I'd agree with, there were no guarantees with a high 30s temp and 25~30 knot winds, burnt leaves covered the ground 27km away, the day after.

    Having said that, even if the bloke thought he was a high roller donor or somehow "connected" and wished to bypass the normal process any thinking person would use, Hawkesbury Council are cnvts. Another mate got a 3k fine for removing a borer infested tree without proper process and authorisation, when a neighbour dobbed him in.

  8. #53
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    Default Catastrophic Fuel Loads, More Bad Fires, More Business

    A fascinating read from the NSW VFFA...

    “..By Dr. Christine Finlay, (PhD, Bushfire Management, UNSW; BA Hons, Disaster Management, JCUNQ; BA UNSW)
    In my PhD, I find that fires in buildings were common news events, but until the 1920s stories on bushfires were rare.
    This change to bushfires regularly making the news followed new, no-burn government policy with ever-tightening restrictions on hazard reductions...”

    https://volunteerfirefighters.org.au...-more-business




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  9. #54
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    Default 2003 Canberra Fires

    Via CSIRO Publishing, Grassfires: Fuel, Weather and Fire Behaviour, page 133...

    “...Woodchip-mulched gardens have replaced green lawn in many places. During the 2003 ACT fires these gardens continued to burn, producing showers of fire-brands for more than 20 minutes after the front had passed and contributing to the extensive loss of houses in the suburbs...”.



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  10. #55
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    Hi Guys,

    There was an item on the news with a video showing a group of fire fighters bulldozing a fire break and burning off scrub. They had a long cleared area, maybe 50 metres wide and several hundred long that one guy said would protect the area at the other side. And that they were winning the fight to stop it spreading.

    Though after seeing some of the video of one fire that they said was over 60 feet high and moving faster than you could drive a car away from it, I have my doubts.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    Hi Guys,

    There was an item on the news with a video showing a group of fire fighters bulldozing a fire break and burning off scrub. They had a long cleared area, maybe 50 metres wide and several hundred long that one guy said would protect the area at the other side. And that they were winning the fight to stop it spreading.

    Though after seeing some of the video of one fire that they said was over 60 feet high and moving faster than you could drive a car away from it, I have my doubts.
    I were doing a burn-off one year in a small timbered paddock. D6 dozer width break all round. Had the fire going nicely down hill off a down wind break with no jumps. Fire was several hundred metres clear of the break when I decided to light up a tall grass tree that the head had not burnt on. It were the only grass tree in this burn paddock... ...sparks all over the break and spot fires every where..

    There are many factors re will a fire break work or not.




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  12. #57
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    I had this short poem emailed to me and thought I would share it with everyone on here.

    WE HAD A BLOODY FIRE MATE

    We had a bloody fire mate
    It burnt the bloody trees
    It burnt so bloody much mate
    Almost brought us to our knees.

    It burnt the bloody houses mate
    It burnt our bloody scrub
    It burnt our bloody towns down
    Mate, it burnt the bloody pub!!!!

    And through the bloody fire mate
    The blokes that save the day
    Was not the Greens or Brumby
    But the bloody C.F. bloody A.

    The D.E.S the S.E.S
    The bloody Volunteers
    Their bloody great effort mate
    Could reduce a bloke to tears.

    So thanks for your efforts mate
    And thanks for all your care
    But most of all thank bloody Christ
    That all of you were there.

    Author unknown.
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  13. #58
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    The biggest problem is that a fire going up a hill, burns a lot faster than one going down a hill.
    And with the terrain that the fires were in, virtually inaccessible, it's little wonder that it was hard to contain.

    I read somewhere that the only wilderness was between a Greenies ears!!!!
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  14. #59
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    Tony Heller has a fascinating look at the USA temperature record vs snowfall records.

    In the USA the annual snow fall area for the last 50 years or so has been getting larger and yet the ‘official’ government heat records keep getting higher - something don’t look right...

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9BY--i_xDk




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  15. #60
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    OK, time to round up the 74-75 fires background.

    ”...In 1974/75, after exceptionally heavy rainfalls during the preceding years, Grassfires swept through the centre of the continent over a 6-month period...” via book, CSIRO “Grassfires, Fuel, Weather and Fire Behaviour”

    So, thanks to fuel load, the 74/75 fires were the biggest area of Australia burnt on record since written records began... and we can verify this all thanks to Landsat.

    If it wern’t for satellite photo mapping we probably wouldn’t have known of half of what burnt in 74/75 and there wouldn’t be the claim of the biggest fire in Oz. Makes yer wonder about the the claimed total burn areas of all recorded fires before Landsat (launched 1971?)

    At any rate, apart from them global warming cultists trying to push an agenda, the actual burnt area is, IMHO, a poor way to ‘compare’ fires.




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    The best way to combat Global Warming Hysteria is via reasoned argument.
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