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  1. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    4,978

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    Hi Steve, Guys,

    I have a vague idea that the original gear was a plastic extrusion simply cut to length ! From a manufacturing point of view that would make sense, easy and cheap to produce, also would be the reason that the gear can no longer be supplied.

    Since there is no or very little load on that gear your plastic one could/should hold up quite well !
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
    Age
    55
    Posts
    1,779

    Default Adventures with a jolly green giant

    Thanks John - thatís interesting.
    If thatís what they were like itís not surprising they were known for failing.

    I printed another fully toothed one, and have fitted that in the cross slide dials as they are the same size as the saddle ones. Works nicely.
    The compound will be a bit harder as itís much smaller with finer teeth.

    Started to get my head around the electrical control side of things.

    First thing will be to remove all the star/delta gear as thatís redundant with the VFD.
    Iíll replace the old fuses with circuit breakers.

    Hereís the full wiring diagram - hopefully itís legible.



    First good thing is while all the control gear is 110v, the step down transformers have 220v input tappings so I can just use that instead of the current 415 tapping. That will allow me to keep the existing control panel buttons and lights, as well as associated contactors and micro switches etc - even if I donít use the contactors for power switching and just use them to signal the VFD(s).

    The rapid traverse motor arrangement has caused a bit of head scratching.
    Finally clicked that itís just FWD and REV contactors, and the 2 (24vdc) clutches. One for cross feed, one for longitudinal.
    The 4 way toggle joystick controls both the fwd/rev selection as well as well as the cross or longitudinal drive.



    Blue wires go to the clutches, one of the red wires will be the 24vdc feed for them. The rest are tied up with the fed/rev.

    Photo of inside the joystick switch housing.
    3wires go straight from the electrical panel (LH side) to the motor (via hole on RH side)



    Itís only a small motor, and nice that its able to be set as 220v.
    Iíll use a small VFD to drive it.
    Think I may even have one in the cupboard somewhere.



    Thinking a logical way forward for testing would be to hook up a 400v 3ph supply from my RPC and use that to drive the motor, with the 110v control side being powered from normal 240v (connected to the appropriate tapping on the transformer).
    Once I know it works properly I can sort out a VFD to drive the motor.

    Steve

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
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    55
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    1,779

    Default Adventures with a jolly green giant

    Been picking away slowly in between other jobs.

    First, took up Racingtadpoleís suggestion for access to the electrical panel once the lathe is in its final location - a removable wall sheet for the shed



    Stripped out all the old star-delta gear.

    Before:




    After:



    The main isolation switch must have had a loose wire in the past.
    Itís now in the bin.



    VFD mounted, 6mm flex to a 32A main breaker, 10A breakers for the control side, brake transformer, and rapid traverse motor VFD (currently in transit from AliExpress)



    With the main motor running I could check out the feeds etc.
    since the spindle brake isnít connected I had to stop the motor before selecting different gears.

    First problem that showed up was no high range drive for the spindle. Bugger
    After removing the headstock cover and expecting to find a gear with all its teeth stripped or some other major damage, I was relieved to find that as well as moving the main speed selector from H1 to H2 for high range - thereís also a secondary gear selector ďJĒ that needs to be changed. Phew!!

    Gave me a chance to look around inside anyway:



    Hereís the spindle brake clutch - looks like itís got a bit hot in the past.



    Gear pump that supplies lube for the main bearings:



    The headstock has a small amount of oil contained in the bottom that gets picked up by the gears for splash lube, but the main volume of oil (about 30L of it) is in a sump below the headstock.

    There is an oil pressure switch with corresponding indicator light to show if the oil feed has failed.
    The oil from the pump passes through a filter housing on the rear of the headstock containing a couple of magnets.





    Doesnít look like thereís any oil getting there and I noticed there was nothing coming out of the copper pipes to the gears - will need to investigate that next.

    Steve

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    56
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    5,930

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    Quote Originally Posted by OxxAndBert View Post
    Gave me a chance to look around inside anyway:


    We had a machine like this at work with a similar looking tray. Turned out that during operation the tray would be flooded with oil that would then trickle down through various holes directly onto gears and/or bearings. Critical to operation was the lube viscosity - from memory it was something like ISO 10 or 15. It could be oil is not circulating well because it is too thick? Something to think about anyway.

    Michael

  5. #50
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    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
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    Thanks Michael. Thatís definitely the purpose of the tray.
    I had a read of the manual last night and the hole in the bottom of the tray goes to a distribution system. There was nothing specific about how oil gets to the tray. Iím assuming itís just splash filled but there is a pipe at the rear of the tray that goes to the oil filter area so may be pump fed.

    Manual specifies Shell Vitrea 27 which is equivalent to ISO32 grade hydraulic oil from what I can work out.

    Steve

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
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    37
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    1,047

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    Quote Originally Posted by OxxAndBert View Post
    Thanks Michael. Thatís definitely the purpose of the tray.
    I had a read of the manual last night and the hole in the bottom of the tray goes to a distribution system. There was nothing specific about how oil gets to the tray. Iím assuming itís just splash filled but there is a pipe at the rear of the tray that goes to the oil filter area so may be pump fed.

    Manual specifies Shell Vitrea 27 which is equivalent to ISO32 grade hydraulic oil from what I can work out.

    Steve
    The Graziano has a cast tray that bolts to the underside of the lid which then oils a couple of points (part number 968).

    sag headstock lid.jpg

    It's just fed by whatever gets launched up there off the gears. Boggled my mind when I looked at it that ANYTHING gets in there as there is very little in the way of a gap around the edge, it doesn't hang down very low, and I don't recall anything being very well located to spray up through the cutout in it. Also seems like if it overfills, it just... well, goes wherever. I'd suspect the pipe on your DSG is more likely to be a drain, but fully prepared to be wrong!

    One other thing I'll point out, which is probably going to be of no use to you, is that Graziano used holes drilled in the underside of one or two of the copper feed pipes to oil certain things. Photo (stolen from PM) attached to show it (along with one that might show how little clearance is on the oil tray on the headstock, the 'indent' is actually the cutout in the oil tray). I'd imagine DSG did a 'proper job' and actually dedicated a line to spray each location exclusively, but just in case...

    Sag 14 headstock inside 02.jpg

    Sag 14 headstock inside 01.jpg

  7. #52
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    Nov 2017
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    Geelong, Australia
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    The Graziano ďhole in the tubeĒ is interesting. I guess if it works and doesnít cause the tube to crack then why not!

    Itís only the main spindle bearings that are pressure lubed on this one. Everything else is splash or specific droppers from the tray.

    Steve

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
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    Default Adventures with a jolly green giant

    Had a proper look at the pressure lube (lack of) issue tonight.
    Refitted the filter housing and tried to prime the system by removing the blank in the housing and filling it with an oil can.
    Still nothing being pumped.
    So I removed the delivery tube where it connects to the tee that then goes to the front and rear spindle bearings. Filled it up with the oil can until I started to feel a bit of resistance then started the motor. A splurt, then a decent fart and finally a solid stream of oil




    Refitted the pipe and screwed a pressure gauge into the filter housing.
    Pretty happy with the pressure - photo taken with motor at 50hz and the gearbox lid back on.
    Another nice thing about a VFD is that you can run the motor at half speed to check these sort of things in the gearbox without covering yourself and half the workshop in oil like you would at full RPM.




    Also blew out the 2 drippers that run off the splash tray, and ran some thin oil through to test them. All good.




    I could also see oil flowing down the pipe from the tray, and worked out that is going to the bearing in front of the brake clutch. I decided not to blow any compressed air down that one as I've got no idea whether there are any seals etc involved. Likely not, but no need to risk it as I could see the oil flowing ok.

    Steve

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
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    Default Adventures with a jolly green giant

    Been picking away at the control wiring.

    Wanted to use a ď3-wireĒ control setup for the VFD that just uses the original start and stop buttons.
    The stop button worked fine but the start button wasnít making contact when pressed.

    After a bit of troubleshooting it turned out to just be dirty contacts, and some contact cleaner and a bit of compressed air fixed it.



    With that sorted out I can control the motor from the buttons.

    Next was to sort out the brake clutch. I salvaged the old brake contactor and mounted it in a new position. Traced through the wiring and got the brake connected, and could then press the contactor manually to engage the brake.
    All going well so far I connected the 110v control side to the contactor - but couldnít get it to activate.
    After lots more tracing and finding/testing of components - discovered the brake microswitch on the clutch mechanism inside the headstock was dead.
    Ordered a suitable replacement and made a bracket to mount it.

    Original IP00 rated switch (likely not original fitment)



    Replacement from Altronics - IP65 rated.




    New bracket and fitted.



    Fitted up and I now have a working brake!!

    Moving the clutch lever up releases the brake and engages the spindle drive clutch. Move the lever down and the clutch disengages and the brake goes on.
    Thereís also a microswitch on the gear selector knob - which releases the brake when you push the knob to change speeds. Supposedly itís to ease the meshing of the gear being selected.

    Another baby 220-380v Ecogoo VFD arrived yesterday, so the next task is to get that wired up and the rapids on the saddle working

    Steve

  10. #55
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    Nov 2017
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    Geelong, Australia
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    Default Adventures with a jolly green giant

    The switch arrangement behind 4-way joystick for the rapids looked a bit confronting for a start.
    4 switches in a double layer setup.





    But it turned out to be pretty simple.
    One layer was the motor control, the other is the clutches.

    4 wires from the main electrical panel
    3 were for the motor fwd/rev selection (common, fwd, rev)
    The other wire was 28vdc for the clutches.

    The way it works is that the motor runs in the selected direction and the appropriate clutch is engaged to get the drive to the saddle or the cross slide.

    I hooked up the little 220-380v Ecogoo VFD, and got the motor running from the VFD control panel.

    Originally the joystick switched a pair of contactors on the main panel to control the motor FWD/REV, so I just removed the contactors and used the 3 wires to control the VFD via the terminals using a ď2-wireĒ config.

    Once the VFD was working I connected up the clutch supply wire and the rapids worked - but backwards. A quick swap of the fwd/rev wires at the VFD fixed that.

    Topped up the oil in the apron and with feed engaged I could check the oil was pumping.
    I expected I would have to prime the pump but turned out I didnít.

    The feed gearbox was a different story. No sign of any oil feed.

    The pump is located on the LH end of the gearbox near the change gears

    Thereís a blanking plug on the top that you remove for priming.
    Removed that, filled it with oil refitted the plug - still no oil delivery.




    I ended up removing the pump to work out why.
    Itís a plunger type pump driven from a cam on the end of one of the gearbox shafts.
    What the manual doesnít say about the priming process is that under the blank is a steel ball approx 12mm diam that functions as a delivery check valve.
    To get oil into the pump when priming you need to remove that ball.
    Refitted the pump, primed with the ball removed and now get oil flow

    Final piece of the electrical work was to the coolant pump.
    I was expecting to have to use another little VFD, but turned out the original pump had been replaced with a single phase one (which explained the additional buttons that had been added for the pump)




    Salvaged one of the old contactors from the rapids and hooked it up so the original coolant buttons controlled it.
    Super easy - so no idea why someone added the new buttons.

    I still need to tidy up the spaghetti, but hereís the current setup in the electrical panel.




    Steve

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaronJ View Post
    Hi Steve,

    Some of these lathes have geared dials, I'm not sure how they work but I do know that they seize and the tiny gear gets stripped. I vaguely recall someone complaining that they were a pig to strip and DSG couldn't supply new gears.

    Either way they are a very nice lathe to run and work with. A chap I know makes traction engine wheel parts with his. Next time I call on him I will have a chat and take some pictures.
    Hi Steve,

    I saw John this morning his DSG is a 2112 too and doesn't have the dual hand wheels ! He thinks that his is probably much older than yours made in 1956. In fact he admitted that it has very recently had the bed reground and new saddle gears fitted. Apparently the key and the saddle feed gear cost him £300 to replace.

    I didn't bother to take any pictures because apart from the dials its the same as yours.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
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    55
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    Tidied up the spaghetti.



    Put my biggest tool (20mm shank) in the monster multifix holder:



    And made a few chips from some 65mm C1020 bar



    I havenít hooked up the ammeter yet so canít see what current itís drawing, but with the VFD thereís no audible hint of load on the motor with a 4mm DOC.

    Looks like thereís an issue with the ratio selector on the saddle feed though, as it wonít move from its 1:1 position.
    Not too fussed for now as I think itís likely a tear down job to fix it - and thatís not happening any time soon.

    Steve

  13. #58
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    69
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    4,904

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    Quote Originally Posted by OxxAndBert View Post
    with the VFD there’s no audible hint of load on the motor with a 4mm DOC. Steve
    Thanks for the reports on the Jolly Green Giant Steve
    That's a nice DOC, I wish I could get 0.4mm DOC without stalling
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    Geelong, Australia
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    Thanks Kryn. I'm hearing you
    For about 30 years I had an old worn out 9" Hercus A model, with a 1/4hp washing machine motor I'd scrounged up at the time to get it going as it was given to me without a motor (young family, mortgage etc so no money for a decent motor). I recall spending most of a day squaring up a block approx 4" cubed!!
    Moving from that to the 14" Takisawa with a 3hp motor was awesome

    This DSG is a different animal altogether, and TBH its a bit sobering just how easily it removes material - and I've only scratched the surface so far.

    Steve

  15. #60
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    Sep 2012
    Location
    York, North Yorkshire UK
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    Hi Steve.

    I think that it was something to do with the saddle selector that my friend John had a problem with that necessitated the new gear and Key ! I didn't take too much notice, but he said something about the key being so badly worn and so thin that it rode up under the gear jamming it.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

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