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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Toorloo Arm, VIC
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    39
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    1,270

    Default La Principessa Italiana - Graziano SAG 180

    Yes, it's true. Sorry to disappoint those of you eagerly awaiting Project Banarama: Part the second, but that ain't gonna happen - I took the "easy" way out.....

    dirty girl.jpg

    One extremely dirty old girl. Of course, used lathes are only as good as the tooling you get with them. Unfortunately I didn't get much of that.....

    IMG_1316_1400x1050.jpg

    I believe I have almost every single accessory this machine was shipped with from the factory... 13 change gears, including the ones on the machine - not that you actually need any change gears for 99% of the time, as the Graziano has a true metric/imperial quick change box. Both the original steadies, the original 12" 4 jaw (think the 3 jaw currently on it is likely also the original), the original set of quick change holders (plus a few, like the MT2 holder with the little centre in it!), the riser block/rear toolpost for the cross slide, and bits for the taper turning attachment.

    Plus, of course, all the other bits you see. Lots of various old Sandvik insert tooling, there's a Komet threading holder in there, a couple of rear mount parting tools, plus a heap of already ground HSS - all of which is in excess of 30 years old, so there's all kinds of good brands in there, ground into various form tools, some acme threading tools, etc (I haven't even gone through all of them). In the plastic bag inside the white tub is what I estimate to be about 200 inserts for the 1 inch shank toolholder currently sitting on the machine, plus there are various other inserts kicking around in the pile.

    IMG_1321_1400x1050.jpg

    The taper turning attachment, and you can see the slots for the rear mounted riser block.

    So, whats the plan? At the moment, it looks like about 12 months of cleaning

    Think the current plan of attack is simply cleaning everything while waiting for the Ecogoo 4kw VFD to arrive (which probably won't be until the new year), fixing anything obvious, and probably change the oils. Then run it a bit, and see what happens. Not sure about painting it yet - I'd kind of like to avoid that, but it's coming off in big chunks in a lot of places, so my OCD may get the better of me. We'll see when it's a bit cleaner how it looks.

    I picked all the loose bits up on Wednesday, so I was working on cleaning the tailstock today while waiting for the truck to arrive (which is why it looks ok, it DID have a 1mm thick layer of baked on crud.), and noticed that the quill lock doesn't really.... lock. It appears to have some washers added to it for some reason, so I'll strip the tailstock and go through it, see what I can sort out. The flat way on the base of the tailstock has a bit of wear in it, only time will tell how much of an issue that will prove to be in use. The rest of the ways initially appear pretty good though, so not sure at this stage whether any scraping is likely to happen.

    Think I need some new belts though - note the one escapee down the bottom...

    IMG_1322_1400x1050.jpg

    Time for dinner - more at a later stage. The keen eye will have noted the decapitated Bridgeport in the background though - typically I stripped the upper half of the head to replace belts and check it over/clean it out before doing spindle bearings the day before this lathe became a thing. Now I have a serious space issue, and may have to move on with the mill before the lathe (if I can tear myself away...).

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    Melbourne
    Age
    35
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    Default

    Congrats they are a great machine. Solid design, not too complex and a decent spindle bore. Im sure you'll love it!

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Toorloo Arm, VIC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caskwarrior View Post
    Congrats they are a great machine. Solid design, not too complex and a decent spindle bore. Im sure you'll love it!

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    It fit my requirements and desires absolutely perfectly - and I feel like a proud dad with a newborn baby.

    I didn't want to buy just a better machine to replace the AL335, I wanted to really make it worthwhile and get as close to 'toolroom' class as possible. But I set myself limits on space, which dictated nothing longer than 40" centres, and somewhere around the 14-17" swing. Ended up deciding I really didn't want to go smaller than the AL335 in the end, particularly in swing as I've gotten pretty marginal on room a couple of times. Also didn't want to go any higher than 1.5 ton and 5hp due to possible future constraints. Those same constraints meant that a clutched machine would also be desirable, in order to run a long ramp time on the VFD to keep inrush current as low as possible without it being annoying to wait for it to spin up. Easy metric threading was also high on the desires list, and it's surprising how few high class older machines do metric well, even Japanese machines. For some odd reason, 1.75mm pitch is a particular issue, and is often not readily available without change gears. A larger spindle bore than the 38mm of the AL335 was not a necessity (it's never big enough no matter what size it is!), but was considered a nice bonus. I did also want a decent top speed without having to crank the VFD way up.

    So for those not familiar with this machine, with a 51mm spindle bore, 14x40 capacity (almost 20" in the 'not gap'), 1250kg and 5hp, 9 speeds from 54 to 1800 rpm, and an excellent selection of both metric and imperial threads available with no change gears required, you can see it fits my wants like a glove. The fact that it had both the original steadies, the taper turning attachment AND the change gears was just the icing on the cake, given how often these disappear over the years. I'm unlikely to use any of those very often, if at all, but I'd much rather have them and not need them than the other way round.... The cherry on top for me is the smaller 3 jaw with the 2 piece jaws - I've been thinking about getting one for ages, for the ability to have all kinds of weird and wonderful softjaws for the odd job. And in a similar vein, I've been meaning to make a big boring bar for ages - now I have many that are bigger than what I had, and as with many of the insert tools the biggest is a Sandvik. Hopefully I have inserts for that, or they're not obsolete.

    My hands smell like 60 years worth of hydraulic oil for some reason....

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,651

    Default

    Awesome - sounds like you’ve picked up a burger with the lot there!

    What sort of vintage is it - 80’s??

    Steve

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    Melbourne
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    35
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    Default

    Id say early 70s

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Toorloo Arm, VIC
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    39
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    Default

    I think you're both quite a ways off.

    I have read on Practical Machinist that someone had a test certificate for serial number 2384 which was dated Jan 62.

    The number on my bed and compound is 1287... So I'm guessing mid to late 50s for mine?

    Lots of cleaning and bits and pieces happened today, but have visitors, so photos will have to wait until tomorrow.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Werribee, Melbourne
    Posts
    177

    Default

    Just had a look on Lathes.co.uk as that machine isn't one I've come across and that is a really nice bit of kit you have there - particularly good score with such a swag of the original accessories.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Toorloo Arm, VIC
    Age
    39
    Posts
    1,270

    Default

    Lots of fun had round here. I think the phrase is 'Well, that escalated quickly!'

    So at the start of yesterday, I had scrubbed around part of the headstock, making my way around to the electrical box so that I could find the bolts to open it, and do so without getting covered in crud.

    IMG_1325_1401x1050.jpg

    Not much in here at all, which is nice - not that I'm going to need any of it, but at least I don't need any fancy solutions - just use one of the buttons on the front as input to the VFD to start the motor, and another to stop it. Surprisingly neat job for Italian machinery too.

    I was getting a bit tired of scrubbing, and got into an area where it felt a bit pointless, as it would be far quicker to just scrape the badly flaking paint off (see below for one example) than to actually clean what's there.

    IMG_1347_1400x1050.JPG

    So I decided to do something different, and started looking at the slides, which felt kind of sticky. First job was to remove the toolpost, which amused me in that it was far heavier than I was subconsciously expecting) - makes sense, it's twice as wide as the BXA toolpost on the AL335 and a bit taller. Shown below with a BXA holder for scale.

    IMG_1330_1400x1050.jpg

    As you can see, the compound is sitting next to it, and I note that the locating pin hole is rather ovaled out - the one on the left. I might bore that on the mill and put a sleeve in it at some stage, but it's probably not that important. The grubby looking screw with the collar on it is the cross slide gib screw. When I pulled the cross slide gib, it loosened up straight away, then started to feel a bit tight. Couldn't figure out why, but it didn't feel in any danger of stripping or breaking anything, so continued on, and it got loose again. Turns out, the gib was basically glued in place by the oily sludge seen below...

    IMG_1327_1400x1050.jpg

    So at the end of yesterday, this is what I had, a roughly cleaned pile of parts on the ground. The hex socket in the compound gib screw is rounded out, so that will require a solution later. The cross slide ways on the saddle have a bit of wear on the chuck side, unsurprisingly, but the rest doesn't look too bad really.

    IMG_1341_1400x1050.jpg

    Sat back, and took one or two photos. The very Italian error on the threading chart had me rolling on the ground when I saw it...
    IMG_1337_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1334_1400x1050.JPG

    This morning, I had a plan of attack in mind, stemming from the gunge in the cross slide, and the fact that I've already had to unblock two oiler passages. The one for the tailstock quill was plugged with some kind of oily booger, and the one for the compound handwheel was plugged with what looked like pink bog - some hard deposit.

    Step one in my cunning plan - remove the ridiculously overkill way covers. The ones that are bolted to the tailstock ways are about 6mm thick! Amazingly, somehow swarf is stuck to the undersides of them - no idea how that can happen. Even use of an airblower shouldn't get swarf up in there, as the covers under the chuck have a little return to fill the gap at the end of the main covers which should stop most stuff, but there you go.

    IMG_1342_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1343_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1346_1400x1050.jpg

    Step the second: figure out how to get the cross slide screw out. Some inspection of components, and a bit of thinking suggested that this sliding part needed to come off:

    IMG_1348_1400x1050.jpg

    After an epic saga involving the consumption of half a spray bottle of Inox, a dead blow mallet, numerous 'soaking' (more take a rest!) breaks, and finally giving in to the dark side and letting the anger flow by moving on up to a smash hammer and a block of wood, the recalcitrant slide was released from its slumber. This taper attachment ain't tapered in many a year....

    IMG_1356_1400x1050.jpg

    For those who are curious as to how these things actually work - this is how this one at least works:

    IMG_1358_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1360_1400x1050.jpg

    As you can see, the handwheel is attached to a splined piece, so when the taper attachment slide is fixed to the bed, the block visible in the photos above rides in the big slot, and can float the cross slide nut in or out. The splined section disappears inside the gear at the handwheel. At the rear is a machined part with a bronze bush inside, thrust bearings either side, and a lever which locks the end of the screw into place against the long snout shaped casting hanging off the back of the cross slide, I assume so that when the taper slide is NOT seized in place it can't walk across and change your tool position. What I'm not sure about is whether I have the full range of motion in the splined segment, as the cross slide handwheel is not the correct one. I'm not sure that the original handwheel doesn't have a recess for the end of the spline to slide into. Something to look at later - I may make or adapt a handwheel of the correct style anyway, as I like the style and it would then match the compound slide handwheel.

    A short break, and I heard we were doing photos of coolant tanks, so I took some brave pills, opened it up, and was rather disappointed - no significant lifeforms.

    IMG_1352_1400x1050.jpg

    Then, well..... This all happened....

    IMG_1364_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1365_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1366_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1369_1400x1050.jpg


    The underside of the saddle was actually not as horrendous as I thought it might be after seeing the cross slide, and given the fact it's missing an oiler (the hole for which was full of crud). The reason I took the screws and rods off was that the leadscrew, although it's probably impossible to see in the photo, has more of that black baked on crap all over it. It scrapes off with a plastic scraper easy enough, but doing minute segments at a time didn't appeal. The feed stop rod is far more encrusted, and there was just no way I was going to get in to that. Having never used them before, I have no idea of whether I'll find them useful in the end, but again I'd rather have them working and not use them than the other way round, and there is no way they'll slide on the rod as it is.

    The clutch and feed rods aren't too bad, but there is a fair bit of play in the clutch lever at the apron (This machine has a lever at the headstock and at the RH side of the apron), so hopefully I can do something with that while it's out.

    The back of the apron gearbox is pretty heavily gooped up. Through a careful error in planning, I ended up needing to take the halfnut out - I though I had enough room with the carriage up against the headstock to wangle it out before I hit the wall, but amongst all the crud I missed the fact there was another bit of casting that would stop me swinging it out at the critical point. Some consultation of the SAG 14 and SAG 180 manuals followed, and appeared to confirm what I thought, so I removed the two gib screws for the halfnut gib. Nothing happened. No movement in the end of the gib I could get to at all. After some thought, I got my big aluminium drift, and gave it a whack. Slight movement then, so after a little wiggling I got frustrated, and managed to get a pair of vice grips up into the space, where I could use them as big pliers to pull the gib out. Same as with the cross slide gib, it was glued in by a congealed oil/grease substance - if it was all clean, that gib should have dropped straight on the floor when I loosened the screws enough to back out of the little dimples on the backside.

    Careful inspection of the photo of the apron gearbox will show there are some sort of grease creatures living in the bottom of that. There also appears to be various breeds of swarf in cohabitation. So that will likely get stripped down further, derust those couple of parts, cleaned and checked. One thing I have noticed is that there is a pin that goes right through from the front which the intermediate gear from the power feed rod rides on. When you turn the power feed rod input that pin actually rotates, and I'm not convinced it should.

    Another thing I discovered the other day, which I wasn't entirely sure initially if it was a feature or a fault - if you look at the carriage handwheel, there is a gear in mesh with the rack gear, and then there is a round profile groove between there and the handwheel. You can actually pull the handwheel towards you (as shown below), which pulls that entire shaft with the gear back, and out of mesh - presumeably so you don't get belted in the nuts by a couple of kilo handwheel going at warp speed. You can then of course reposition it at any tooth position you like, convenient if you were doing fiddly work via the carriage I guess.

    IMG_1363_1400x1050.jpg

    Getting slightly back on track though, I'm sure someone is wanting to know about the saddle to bed slides after a quick clean:

    IMG_1371_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1374_1400x1050.jpg

    The saddle has a bit of wear on the flat way side, fairly decent lip in it, but the bed way looks just fine. The prismatic way on the saddle doesn't SHOW any wear, but it must be worn down a bit, as the bed has a slight lip in it as seen above. The lip goes back to at least halfway up the bed though, so I don't think it's in any danger of causing me big issues re: changing tool geometry for most things I do. Of course, there's only one way to know for sure.

    A few other amusing or interesting things spotted along the way: I had previously looked at what I assumed to be a light between the start and stop buttons, and figured it was a thoroughly crustified red plastic lens. Turns out, no.

    IMG_1370_1400x1050.JPG

    It's that amazing new technology - broomhandle globes! Apparently the globe blew at some point, and I guess they couldn't find a replacement, so jammed a piece of broomhandle in it.

    This little cap gave me a heart attack when I first saw the join. It was so encrusted with crud it looked like the casting was cracked, as I couldn't see the bolt. Inspection of photos on the internet showed it seemed normal, and today I discovered it appears to be an oil reservoir for the end of the lead screw (wonder if it also feeds the end of the powerfeed rod. Hmmm.)

    IMG_1361_1400x1050.jpg

    Another interesting thing, which I'm not quite sure exactly what it does yet:

    IMG_1362_1400x1050.jpg

    I was originally thinking it was an overload clutch for the powerfeed, but having now seen how the feed stop rod goes together (the fork over the powerfeed shaft is attached to the stop rod, which has a spring between the fork and the headstock), I'm not sure if it does actually function as an overload or just a trip for the feed stop. It did have a steel pin in it though (not in the photo, obviously). The pin has ovaled out the hole in the splined part somewhat too, another job to consider later. It's also I guess possible there is an overload clutch buried in the gearbox that covers both, as the leadscrew was held on with a steel taper pin.

    Anyway, the old girl is now sitting there basting in an entire can of degreaser, waiting for me to get going again tomorrow. Problem is of course, given the state of a lot of the paint (coming off in big chunks), and the fact that I've now stripped it down so far, I'm really thinking about repainting it. I didn't really want to do that, and if the whole thing looked like the change gear door (which is cast aluminium, incidentally) and upper half of the headstock, I'd be more than happy to leave it and call it character. But the big chunks hanging off are going to bug me (and catch swarf in some places as well). Don't want to spray it, although I have spray gear - think I'd rather brush it with something like a tractor paint? Always a contentious subject, but anyone used any good paints lately?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    470

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde View Post
    Lots of fun had round here. I think the phrase is 'Well, that escalated quickly!'

    So at the start of yesterday, I had scrubbed around part of the headstock, making my way around to the electrical box so that I could find the bolts to open it, and do so without getting covered in crud.

    IMG_1325_1401x1050.jpg

    Not much in here at all, which is nice - not that I'm going to need any of it, but at least I don't need any fancy solutions - just use one of the buttons on the front as input to the VFD to start the motor, and another to stop it. Surprisingly neat job for Italian machinery too.

    I was getting a bit tired of scrubbing, and got into an area where it felt a bit pointless, as it would be far quicker to just scrape the badly flaking paint off (see below for one example) than to actually clean what's there.

    IMG_1347_1400x1050.JPG

    So I decided to do something different, and started looking at the slides, which felt kind of sticky. First job was to remove the toolpost, which amused me in that it was far heavier than I was subconsciously expecting) - makes sense, it's twice as wide as the BXA toolpost on the AL335 and a bit taller. Shown below with a BXA holder for scale.

    IMG_1330_1400x1050.jpg

    As you can see, the compound is sitting next to it, and I note that the locating pin hole is rather ovaled out - the one on the left. I might bore that on the mill and put a sleeve in it at some stage, but it's probably not that important. The grubby looking screw with the collar on it is the cross slide gib screw. When I pulled the cross slide gib, it loosened up straight away, then started to feel a bit tight. Couldn't figure out why, but it didn't feel in any danger of stripping or breaking anything, so continued on, and it got loose again. Turns out, the gib was basically glued in place by the oily sludge seen below...

    IMG_1327_1400x1050.jpg

    So at the end of yesterday, this is what I had, a roughly cleaned pile of parts on the ground. The hex socket in the compound gib screw is rounded out, so that will require a solution later. The cross slide ways on the saddle have a bit of wear on the chuck side, unsurprisingly, but the rest doesn't look too bad really.

    IMG_1341_1400x1050.jpg

    Sat back, and took one or two photos. The very Italian error on the threading chart had me rolling on the ground when I saw it...
    IMG_1337_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1334_1400x1050.JPG

    This morning, I had a plan of attack in mind, stemming from the gunge in the cross slide, and the fact that I've already had to unblock two oiler passages. The one for the tailstock quill was plugged with some kind of oily booger, and the one for the compound handwheel was plugged with what looked like pink bog - some hard deposit.

    Step one in my cunning plan - remove the ridiculously overkill way covers. The ones that are bolted to the tailstock ways are about 6mm thick! Amazingly, somehow swarf is stuck to the undersides of them - no idea how that can happen. Even use of an airblower shouldn't get swarf up in there, as the covers under the chuck have a little return to fill the gap at the end of the main covers which should stop most stuff, but there you go.

    IMG_1342_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1343_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1346_1400x1050.jpg

    Step the second: figure out how to get the cross slide screw out. Some inspection of components, and a bit of thinking suggested that this sliding part needed to come off:

    IMG_1348_1400x1050.jpg

    After an epic saga involving the consumption of half a spray bottle of Inox, a dead blow mallet, numerous 'soaking' (more take a rest!) breaks, and finally giving in to the dark side and letting the anger flow by moving on up to a smash hammer and a block of wood, the recalcitrant slide was released from its slumber. This taper attachment ain't tapered in many a year....

    IMG_1356_1400x1050.jpg

    For those who are curious as to how this things actually work - this is how this one at least works:

    IMG_1358_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1360_1400x1050.jpg

    As you can see, the handwheel is attached to a splined piece, so when the taper attachment slide is fixed to the bed, the block visible in the photos above rides in the big slot, and can float the cross slide nut in or out. The splined section disappears inside the gear at the handwheel. At the rear is a machined part with a bronze bush inside, thrust bearings either side, and a lever which locks the end of the screw into place against the long snout shaped casting hanging off the back of the cross slide, I assume so that when the taper slide is NOT seized in place it can't walk across and change your tool position. What I'm not sure about is whether I have the full range of motion in the splined segment, as the cross slide handwheel is not the correct one. I'm not sure that the original handwheel doesn't have a recess for the end of the spline to slide into. Something to look at later - I may make or adapt a handwheel of the correct style anyway, as I like the style and it would then match the compound slide handwheel.

    A short break, and I heard we were doing photos of coolant tanks, so I took some brave pills, opened it up, and was rather disappointed - no significant lifeforms.

    IMG_1352_1400x1050.jpg

    Then, well..... This all happened....

    IMG_1364_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1365_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1366_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1369_1400x1050.jpg


    The underside of the saddle was actually not as horrendous as I thought it might be after seeing the cross slide, and given the fact it's missing an oiler (the hole for which was full of crud). The reason I took the screws and rods off was that the leadscrew, although it's probably impossible to see in the photo, has more of that black baked on crap all over it. It scrapes off with a plastic scraper easy enough, but doing minute segments at a time didn't appeal. The feed stop rod is far more encrusted, and there was just no way I was going to get in to that. Having never used them before, I have no idea of whether I'll find them useful in the end, but again I'd rather have them working and not use them than the other way round, and there is no way they'll slide on the rod as it is.

    The clutch and feed rods aren't too bad, but there is a fair bit of play in the clutch lever at the apron (This machine has a lever at the headstock and at the RH side of the apron), so hopefully I can do something with that while it's out.

    The back of the apron gearbox is pretty heavily gooped up. Through a careful error in planning, I ended up needing to take the halfnut out - I though I had enough room with the carriage up against the headstock to wangle it out before I hit the wall, but amongst all the crud I missed the fact there was another bit of casting that would stop me swinging it out at the critical point. Some consultation of the SAG 14 and SAG 180 manuals followed, and appeared to confirm what I thought, so I removed the two gib screws for the halfnut gib. Nothing happened. No movement in the end of the gib I could get to at all. After some thought, I got my big aluminium drift, and gave it a whack. Slight movement then, so after a little wiggling I got frustrated, and managed to get a pair of vice grips up into the space, where I could use them as big pliers to pull the gib out. Same as with the cross slide gib, it was glued in by a congealed oil/grease substance - if it was all clean, that gib should have dropped straight on the floor when I loosened the screws enough to back out of the little dimples on the backside.

    Careful inspection of the photo of the apron gearbox will show there are some sort of grease creatures living in the bottom of that. There also appears to be various breeds of swarf in cohabitation. So that will likely get stripped down further, derust those couple of parts, cleaned and checked. One thing I have noticed is that there is a pin that goes right through from the front which the intermediate gear from the power feed rod rides on. When you turn the power feed rod input that pin actually rotates, and I'm not convinced it should.

    Another thing I discovered the other day, which I wasn't entirely sure initially if it was a feature or a fault - if you look at the carriage handwheel, there is a gear in mesh with the rack gear, and then there is a round profile groove between there and the handwheel. You can actually pull the handwheel towards you (as shown below), which pulls that entire shaft with the gear back, and out of mesh - presumeably so you don't get belted in the nuts by a couple of kilo handwheel going at warp speed. You can then of course reposition it at any tooth position you like, convenient if you were doing fiddly work via the carriage I guess.

    IMG_1363_1400x1050.jpg

    Getting slightly back on track though, I'm sure someone is wanting to know about the saddle to bed slides after a quick clean:

    IMG_1371_1400x1050.jpg
    IMG_1374_1400x1050.jpg

    The saddle has a bit of wear on the flat way side, fairly decent lip in it, but the bed way looks just fine. The prismatic way on the saddle doesn't SHOW any wear, but it must be worn down a bit, as the bed has a slight lip in it as seen above. The lip goes back to at least halfway up the bed though, so I don't think it's in any danger of causing me big issues re: changing tool geometry for most things I do. Of course, there's only one way to know for sure.

    A few other amusing or interesting things spotted along the way: I had previously looked at what I assumed to be a light between the start and stop buttons, and figured it was a thoroughly crustified red plastic lens. Turns out, no.

    IMG_1370_1400x1050.JPG

    It's that amazing new technology - broomhandle globes! Apparently the globe blew at some point, and I guess they couldn't find a replacement, so jammed a piece of broomhandle in it.

    This little cap gave me a heart attack when I first saw the join. It was so encrusted with crud it looked like the casting was cracked, as I couldn't see the bolt. Inspection of photos on the internet showed it seemed normal, and today I discovered it appears to be an oil reservoir for the end of the lead screw (wonder if it also feeds the end of the powerfeed rod. Hmmm.)

    IMG_1361_1400x1050.jpg

    Another interesting thing, which I'm not quite sure exactly what it does yet:

    IMG_1362_1400x1050.jpg

    I was originally thinking it was an overload clutch for the powerfeed, but having now seen how the feed stop rod goes together (the fork over the powerfeed shaft is attached to the stop rod, which has a spring between the fork and the headstock), I'm not sure if it does actually function as an overload or just a trip for the feed stop. It did have a steel pin in it though (not in the photo, obviously). The pin has ovaled out the hole in the splined part somewhat too, another job to consider later. It's also I guess possible there is an overload clutch buried in the gearbox that covers both, as the leadscrew was held on with a steel taper pin.

    Anyway, the old girl is now sitting there basting in an entire can of degreaser, waiting for me to get going again tomorrow. Problem is of course, given the state of a lot of the paint (coming off in big chunks), and the fact that I've now stripped it down so far, I'm really thinking about repainting it. I didn't really want to do that, and if the whole thing looked like the change gear door (which is cast aluminium, incidentally) and upper half of the headstock, I'd be more than happy to leave it and call it character. But the big chunks hanging off are going to bug me (and catch swarf in some places as well). Don't want to spray it, although I have spray gear - think I'd rather brush it with something like a tractor paint? Always a contentious subject, but anyone used any good paints lately?
    Nice lathe you got there, i have seen one of those lathes at new mac machinery good quality Italian machinery. I have the Italian rambaudi V2 mill which i strip down and repaint using dulux paints, so far it has held up with no peeling paint coming off. I use one of those airless spray guns had very good results. https://metalworkforums.com/f301/t20...-repair/page-4

  10. #10
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    I've been studying the SAG 14 manuals and the SAG 180 manuals to see what the deal is with the clutch arrangement on the feed screw. I think it probably does both feed trip and overload.

    Feed stop clutch.jpg
    feed clutch 2.jpg

    The top diagram is from the SAG 14 manual, which is easier to see all the parts, but it's not quite clear how it works (to me at least) until you look at the second drawing from the SAG 180 manual. So there is a tapered bush in there, contained between the bronze part and the steel part which are bolted together. The tapered bush must be kept from moving towards the headstock by a shoulder on the output shaft, and the 3 springs when 'at rest' push the outer assembly towards the tailstock, transmitting drive via the taper. Then when the carriage hits the feed stop, the fork (# 1522 in the SAG 14 diagram) pushes on the front of the steel part (#1539), compressing the 3 springs, and breaking the contact between the tapered bush and the outer assembly - no more drive. When you then move the feed stop lever to another position, the spring on the feed stop rod pushes the fork back, and you regain powerfeed. Makes sense given the 4 stop positions, run until you hit the first stop, dial in the next diameter on the cross slide, click the stop lever up to "2" and you're off again - repeat until you run out of positions.

    However, looking at that package, it seems also fairly likely that should you run into something immovable under powerfeed, that the whole package would be able to slip and save the train, and I'd be pretty surprised if that wasn't part of the intent of the design. I'm not exactly keen to find out for sure, but I'm keeping it in mind, as if the springs get tired it would seem very possible for it to slip during a cut.

    I'm not seeing any overload protection for the lead screw though. I can't imagine the taper pin is supposed to be a shear pin... Have to keep looking.

  11. #11
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    Nothing like getting right into it!It’s amazing the holding power of that dried up oil gunge. I recall when I got my shaper, even after removing the gib from one side of the ram I still had to use a bar to lever the ram across to break it free.

    Pretty confident that carriage hand wheel disconnect is a feature.

    RE paint, I used this Wattyl Killrust epoxy enamel on my press build. Pretty happy how it came out with brush application.
    Used a bit on my forklift using one of those 100mm rollers and that came out well too.




    The single step epoxy enamels are my go to paints in the workshop these days. Minimal prep, reasonable finish with brush/roller, easy to patch if required and easy to get from the big green shed.
    I’m not a fan of the water based satin “Advanced Enamel” from White Knight but TBH haven’t tried the gloss version.
    Other than that I’ve got no particular brand preference - they all seem to similar to me.

    Steve

  12. #12
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    I did a small project with an enamel paint.
    The product was Norglass Weatherfast. Australian made, Australian owned.
    Local paint guy recommended it, results were good even with brush application.

  13. #13
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    Not a whole lot of progress today. Started off scrubbing away at the bed.

    IMG_1387_1400x1050.jpg

    Got to here, and got a bit bored of listening to chunks of paint showering into the chip tray, so changed it up by scraping most of the crud out of the chip tray, then went in search of something that would yield a bit more job satisfaction...

    IMG_1376_1400x1050.jpg

    IMG_1379_1400x1050.jpg

    IMG_1383_1400x1050.jpg

    You can see how crusty the feed stop rod was. Its not that clean yet, but everything is so filthy you kind of end up doing a 2 stage clean. The stops are sliding nicely on it, so it can stay together until I've the need to do the second stage. Leadscrew is pretty good now though.

    IMG_1384_1400x1050.jpg

    Then I got stuck into something a bit more useful, and scrubbed the carriage down. There's a bit underneath that needs more attention, but it's bloody awkward to get in there due to the shape of it. Also got the air blower out, and blasted the snotty oil slugs out of all the oilers, nice and clear now. Also cleared the ones on the cross slide, and figured out why I had two oilers on one side. It had previously occurred to me that it looked like a DRO scale had been fitted, and I assume the upper oiler was added due to the scale blocking the one in the side. Now I'm wondering whether I can somehow get the oiler out of the side pocket (plug that hole with a brass plug) and put it on the carriage where it's missing one - they're quite good oilers, nice strong spring, and a conical depression that the oil can tip seats nicely on.

    IMG_1386_1400x1050.jpg

    Still pondering the pros and cons of painting, really don't relish the idea of all that stripping - I know that even though a lot is just flaking straight off, the other half won't budge . Enamels and I don't normally get along, they seem to stay like chewing gum for weeks, but that Norglass one appears to be a polyurethane based one, so should be pretty durable and hopefully dries decently fast. I'd like to pull all the little plates off if I paint it, so I'll have to see whether you can buy little copper rivets anymore (don't fancy making those much). Think I'd like to just stay with the current colour, as I think it suits it quite well, but I'm kind of considering other colours.

    Also need to track down some felt (I think that's what I'll use) for making new wipers. Will also be handy as I'd like to replace the felt oil washer at the top of the Bridgeport spindle, which has seen better days.

    Finished up the day aimlessly poking at lumps of crud in the change gear compartment. Tried to find a number on the belts, but no go. Have to measure it and see what length and section I need. I seem to recall something about matched sets being desirable in this application, but not necessarily available anymore? Have to read up on that again. I could run link belt I guess like I did on the AL335, but that's likely to get expensive for the 3 fairly long belts I need (I know I could probably get away with just two, but....)

  14. #14
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    If the oilers are just push in, you might have some luck with pushing it out hydraulically with grease. If it goes to a single point rather than a gallery try putting a needle nose grease gun into the opening and give it a couple of decent pumps. If it goes to a gallery then obviously you've got to deal with blocking the other openings.

    The Norglass products I've used in the past have always been good, but I've had no dramas with the epoxy enamels I said about.
    Definitely nothing like a standard enamel house paint. In regards to durability I painted a set of landy wheels in the hammertone finish almost 10 years ago and they are still holding up well. Pretty sure you can get them tinted to whatever colour you want too.
    I'm generally more interested in getting consistent coverage and protection than a perfect finish so the one-step epoxy's are great for me. I remove any loose stuff, blend any remaining paint/filler edges if I'm really keen and then degrease and paint.
    If you're going to go the whole hog and strip it, then filler, primer etc then you need to make sure all the layers are happy together. Its a mongrel when your topcoat reacts with something underneath, turns to wrinkles or other nasties and you have to strip the whole thing down and start again

    Edit: I got some felt washers earlier in the year from my local bearing place. From memory they actually had some sheet, but I ended up buying a couple of pre made washers and cutting them down slightly in diameter.
    Not sure where in Melbourne you are, but these guys look like they could be a good source: https://www.jjdavies.com.au/

    Steve

  15. #15
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    Oct 2016
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    Melbourne
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    I would just use masking tap for those little plate, they are not easy to get off, i stuff up the plate on the mill head on my mill so stuck it back on with double sided tape. I use a electric sander and sand some parts by hand. I sanded down to the body filler, some parts down to the bare metal then with the airless spray gun put 3 cotes of primer and 4 cotes of the finish coat. It takes time but worth it, took me ~ 7 months to complete the job and have the mill running but still have a some work to do on it. I think your lathe will not take that long to repaint. I did a clean and repair on my Okuma LP Lathe https://metalworkforums.com/f301/t19...-repair/page-4 That took ~ 6 months, so all these jobs i did on the machines i did when i had time, if you did it full time well maybe half that time.

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