Thread: La Principessa Italiana - Graziano SAG 180

Nice job on the tool holders J&H, I have the same qctp and holders and also use one of those 32mm parting blades with a 4mm insert in it, i also have a smaller 25mm same style of blade that use's 2 and 3mm insets... the 32mm blade with 4mm insert does 95% of the work as it works so well and i get a much better run out of the inserts, sometimes the blade is out sticking out so far that only 2 screws are really only holding the blade in the holder. My parting blade holder fits into a tool holder so does stick out the side a bit, your parting blade holder tucked in like that will be very effective.

Fantastic job Sir J&H. Just binged on your resto.

Your tag line is "I break stuff", but it appears to me your do the opposite! Well done. That looked like an ordeal. But ... old lathes are indeed projects in themselves, and, tbh, like most old machines, enjoyable projects. I hope you're getting some use from the old girl now. Using the correct 'lover positions' of course. <grin>

I think you have done it justice - even down to the colour. It is a hard choice to make re 'paint or leave original'. But, always great to see an old machine get some love and prep for the next 60-100 years. I think you made the right choice.

Question: Not knowing much about these thing, is a KA200/300 scale a kind of low profile scale?


Greg.

Originally Posted by StrayAlien

Fantastic job Sir J&H. Just binged on your resto.

Your tag line is "I break stuff", but it appears to me your do the opposite! Well done. That looked like an ordeal. But ... old lathes are indeed projects in themselves, and, tbh, like most old machines, enjoyable projects. I hope you're getting some use from the old girl now. Using the correct 'lover positions' of course. <grin>

I think you have done it justice - even down to the colour. It is a hard choice to make re 'paint or leave original'. But, always great to see an old machine get some love and prep for the next 60-100 years. I think you made the right choice.

Question: Not knowing much about these thing, is a KA200/300 scale a kind of low profile scale?


Greg.

Thanks Greg.

KA200 is, as far as I'm aware the smallest profile glass scale you can get, and only available in relatively short lengths. Perfect for cross slides etc. The KA300 is the most common profile offered, which is one of the largest, but comes in long lengths. The KA500 is often offered as a slim profile, and while it is indeed slimmer than the KA300, it's quite a bit larger than the KA200. I have no idea why they numbered them so illogically.

Dimensions of them all (including available lengths) can be found a handful of pages into this PDF: http://stankoservis.by/Download/SINO...r%20manual.pdf

Some of the mag tape scales can be set up to be even more compact, but I think you'd ideally want a machined surface to stick the tape to. There is also another thin rod type that the brand name escapes me, and is both expensive and hard to find....

As I have said mate, you're a mine of info. Thanks. Beer.

Nice work on the restoration, and the QC Tooling.
The chart for the gear changes, did you get a replacement or is it the original??
Asking as I've a Graziano also, and looking for a replacement as mine is unfortunately unreadable.
Thanks
Kryn

Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore

Nice work on the restoration, and the QC Tooling.
The chart for the gear changes, did you get a replacement or is it the original??
Asking as I've a Graziano also, and looking for a replacement as mine is unfortunately unreadable.
Thanks
Kryn

It's the original, complete with errors. In addition to the word 'lovers' instead of levers, I also realised the other day for the first time that the bottom two rows of feeds in the metric section are out by a factor of ten. And for some reason the feeds in the metric position are still quoted in thou.

Mine is mangled from years of the chuck key being hung in front of it, the metal has been stretched so it'll never go back on, and the feeds in the metric section are ALMOST illegible.

My partner has done artwork to have it recreated, but life has got in the way.

I assume you are now in possession of Bryans machine? Number one, we are all VERY disappointed in the lack of 'new machine' photos - especially since all the photos of that machine have long disappeared from the site. I'm fairly sure it's the one pictured on lathes.co.uk though (Archive: lathes.co.uk), which confirms my thoughts that a) it was an early model with plain bearings, and b) had the same ABC/123456 layout as mine. Interestingly though, the only plate visible on the machine at that time was actually the threading plate, which appeared to be readable?

Also interestingly, although the actual threading charts are identical, both it and the machine below have the 1-6 number positions on the actual selector reversed from mine - although they also still have the two right most positions non-sequential. Also a very Italian error on that plate as well - I can just hear an old Italian I used to work with saying 'tread' when I read that. Not really sure what they could have changed to flip the number positions, whether it's just the rotary selector layout or something more. The grey machine also has a 1/2" leadscrew instead of the 3/8" mine has, so there must be a difference in gearing somewhere in there...

I'll put a scan of mine here anyway, with the corrected number positions, it should at least serve as a functional reference for you. When I get back to dealing with recreating mine, I'll see if the artist can be convinced to do modifications to suit yours.

Graziano chart.jpg

Inspirational work throughout, J & H. Your posts are a thoroughly good read.

I often think about how this machining caper is much like a 'self licking ice cream', with so much energy, time and expense invested in growing the monster and creating even more machining capability. Of course, like many, I too am prepared to go along with the ride with [mostly] a smile on my face.

May I ask, if the QCTH's were cold blued, what was your potion of choice?

Cheers
Salv

Originally Posted by Salv

Inspirational work throughout, J & H. Your posts are a thoroughly good read.

I often think about how this machining caper is much like a 'self licking ice cream', with so much energy, time and expense invested in growing the monster and creating even more machining capability. Of course, like many, I too am prepared to go along with the ride with [mostly] a smile on my face.

May I ask, if the QCTH's were cold blued, what was your potion of choice?

Cheers
Salv

RUST!

1668731968957.jpg

More specifically, rust blued via a 2% sal ammoniac solution, using this recipe:

Mix 37 grains of Ammonium Chloride into 2 fl oz distilled water. Then add 100 grains of 95% ethyl alcohol (wheat source is OK). Lastly add enough water to make 4 fl oz.

I made up a litre (way more than I needed, but it'll last me forever now!), which translated to 1 litre of water (straight out of the tap, as we're on rainwater tanks), 20 grams of ammonium chloride, and 55ml of methylated spirits. The last is not strictly necessary, many recipes don't include it, but it probably helps to do a little extra degreasing. Certainly wet out a little better when I added it.

Apply to degreased items, leave alone, boil in water, card, repeat. When you're happy after the last carding, boil again in clean water, then drop in oil for a day. Time consuming, but I don't have the money to justify Caswells black oxide dip at the moment. The regular holders had 4 rust cycles, but I left them overnight each time, and they did get ever so slightly pitted. Not really noticeable unless you're looking for it, but depending on what you're doing might be a problem. The parting tool holder had 5 cycles morning to night, and maybe could have had one more cycle and still darkened slightly.

The knurled height adjusters and locking screws are just heated with a propane torch, and dunked in sump oil - I'm guessing no-one actually blew up the photo, given the lack of comments on the colours... You can get anything from a light gold through purple, and many blues, just heat gently and evenly (unless you want a colour gradient) and watch the colours change, then drop it in oil to stop the heat from continuing to change the colour.

All that said, the far left toolholder I did first was actually done with Birchwood Casey Super Blue. It does work well, gives nice results, but it's not much less fiddly than rust bluing, seems more prone to after rust and I think I would have needed a couple of expensive little bottles to get all these done (mine is nearly empty). Ammonium chloride is cheap cheap cheap.

You can actually use anything for the process, as long as it rusts the steel. Sea water would work, for example. Ammonium chloride just works faster, without some of the strong acids in other formulas, and gives a pretty even coating, and seems to not have a tendency to after rust (even some of the test pieces that have been sitting on the bench for weeks half carded and unoiled aren't really rusting, which is impressive in my shed). I believe if you skip the boiling part of the process, you can also create brown parts, which is on the list of things to try eventually.

Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde

My partner has done artwork to have it recreated, but life has got in the way.
I assume you are now in possession of Bryans machine? Number one, we are all VERY disappointed in the lack of 'new machine' photos -

I'll put a scan of mine here anyway, with the corrected number positions, it should at least serve as a functional reference for you.
When I get back to dealing with recreating mine, I'll see if the artist can be convinced to do modifications to suit yours.

As life normally does LOL
Yes it was Bryan's machine, I would put up pics of it, but where it's situated is in a dark corner with no lighting or power, plus I forgot where I put my camera. This getting old is not all it's cracked up to be.
Thanks for the scan, it's far better than on mine.
That'll be fantastic, thank you. Are you getting it done as a replica or just working off the sheet? If you're getting a replacement, could I bother you to get mine done also, PLEASE, as the artwork would be pretty much the same I'd say. Of course I'm happy to pay for it and your partners time in doing this.
Thanks Again,
Kryn

Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore

As life normally does LOL
Yes it was Bryan's machine, I would put up pics of it, but where it's situated is in a dark corner with no lighting or power, plus I forgot where I put my camera. This getting old is not all it's cracked up to be.
Thanks for the scan, it's far better than on mine.
That'll be fantastic, thank you. Are you getting it done as a replica or just working off the sheet? If you're getting a replacement, could I bother you to get mine done also, PLEASE, as the artwork would be pretty much the same I'd say. Of course I'm happy to pay for it and your partners time in doing this.
Thanks Again,
Kryn

I haven't really decided yet. Step one was to reconstruct what I had into digital format, print it and check it's the right scale, and the holes are in the right place. Then I was going to send that file off about getting it laser marked (rather than engraved, to match the original which appears to be screen printed), and then laser cut so I don't have to stuff around punching/cutting/drilling all the holes in the right spot. That may all end up falling by the wayside, I might end up screen printing it like the original, or possibly etching it like StrayAlien did.

Either way, don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen, it's a fair way down the priority list at the moment! I'll keep you in mind when I get to it though. In the meantime, probably best if you check that selecting levers according to my chart actually gives the desired pitch!

Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde

The knurled height adjusters and locking screws are just heated with a propane torch, and dunked in sump oil - I'm guessing no-one actually blew up the photo

I saw some purple, but thought it was room lighting

You can get anything from a light gold through purple, and many blues, just heat gently and evenly (unless you want a colour gradient)

I like a Purple->Indigo->Blue gradient. On a water hardening steel, it comes out really bright!
Oil seems to dull it with some grey?


P.S. Do you find the height adjusters jam if you use the lock screws?

My (chinese copy) Algra/Dickson style QCTP always jams if I turn the square head lock screw into the knurled height adjuster. Yes it locks the height, but if I want to change the height after that, the lock screw unscrews the knurled thing and the threaded rod that goes into the tool holder block.
I basically need to use vice grips on the knurl to let me loosen the lock screw.
I'm thinking of recreating them with a spanner flat!

Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde

Either way, don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen, it's a fair way down the priority list at the moment! I'll keep you in mind when I get to it though. In the meantime, probably best if you check that selecting levers according to my chart actually gives the desired pitch!

I'll be able to do that once I get power down in the Stables. Yes, I've currently got SOME of my equipment in an old stable, with a concrete floor.
Kryn

Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde

RUST!

1668731968957.jpg

More specifically, rust blued via a 2% sal ammoniac solution, using this recipe:

Mix 37 grains of Ammonium Chloride into 2 fl oz distilled water. Then add 100 grains of 95% ethyl alcohol (wheat source is OK). Lastly add enough water to make 4 fl oz.

I made up a litre (way more than I needed, but it'll last me forever now!), which translated to 1 litre of water (straight out of the tap, as we're on rainwater tanks), 20 grams of ammonium chloride, and 55ml of methylated spirits. The last is not strictly necessary, many recipes don't include it, but it probably helps to do a little extra degreasing. Certainly wet out a little better when I added it.

Apply to degreased items, leave alone, boil in water, card, repeat. When you're happy after the last carding, boil again in clean water, then drop in oil for a day. Time consuming, but I don't have the money to justify Caswells black oxide dip at the moment. The regular holders had 4 rust cycles, but I left them overnight each time, and they did get ever so slightly pitted. Not really noticeable unless you're looking for it, but depending on what you're doing might be a problem. The parting tool holder had 5 cycles morning to night, and maybe could have had one more cycle and still darkened slightly.

The knurled height adjusters and locking screws are just heated with a propane torch, and dunked in sump oil - I'm guessing no-one actually blew up the photo, given the lack of comments on the colours... You can get anything from a light gold through purple, and many blues, just heat gently and evenly (unless you want a colour gradient) and watch the colours change, then drop it in oil to stop the heat from continuing to change the colour.

All that said, the far left toolholder I did first was actually done with Birchwood Casey Super Blue. It does work well, gives nice results, but it's not much less fiddly than rust bluing, seems more prone to after rust and I think I would have needed a couple of expensive little bottles to get all these done (mine is nearly empty). Ammonium chloride is cheap cheap cheap.

You can actually use anything for the process, as long as it rusts the steel. Sea water would work, for example. Ammonium chloride just works faster, without some of the strong acids in other formulas, and gives a pretty even coating, and seems to not have a tendency to after rust (even some of the test pieces that have been sitting on the bench for weeks half carded and unoiled aren't really rusting, which is impressive in my shed). I believe if you skip the boiling part of the process, you can also create brown parts, which is on the list of things to try eventually.

Excellent! Thank you for taking the time to provide sufficient detail. It appears I'm not the only one who has hesitated at forking out for the caswell potion and whilst the Birchwood Casey I have is handy, it is not always available and its use becomes expensive real fast on sizeable work pieces. Could be something to do with my heritage - I appreciate savings where possible, which leaves more money for other stuff!

Cheers
Salv

Originally Posted by nigelpearson

Do you find the height adjusters jam if you use the lock screws?

My (chinese copy) Algra/Dickson style QCTP always jams if I turn the square head lock screw into the knurled height adjuster. Yes it locks the height, but if I want to change the height after that, the lock screw unscrews the knurled thing and the threaded rod that goes into the tool holder block.
I basically need to use vice grips on the knurl to let me loosen the lock screw.

Take the knurled adjuster off. Get two nuts the correct thread, screw them onto the studs, and lock them together by undoing the lower one as you tighten the upper one. I find it easiest to use one hand and squeeze the two spanners together. Then use the top one to do the stud up tight. Use the two spanners in one hand again to undo the top nut as you do up the bottom one, remove nuts. Problem Solvered. Trick also works to REMOVE studs from things, without butchering the threads like Vice Grips or 'stud removers' do (obviously you would use the lower nut and undo it in this case).

Some of the older ones do tend to want to undo the adjuster a little at the same time as undoing the lock screw, the new ones I made seem better about this. Possibly because I made the lock screws, and the end is faced off square to the thread, with a nice chamfer, and likewise I faced off and chamfered the end of the all thread I used for studs, so the contact point between the two should be square and centred. You've reminded me I wanted to go through the old ones, and have a look at possibly replacing a couple of studs. Think a couple are a little bent, the knurled adjuster sits crooked against the seat on the toolpost when clamped. Doesn't REALLY matter, as that contact point is still consistent each time, but....