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  1. #16
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    My 900x600x200 plate bought through Dan (that Marcus is talking about) was $850 (plus shipping from Dan's place to me)

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcuschrist View Post


    funnily enough my partner and I where supposed to be heading to tassy earlier this year and I had plans to bring my Biax, hand scrapers etc but the flights were cancelled due to Covid. There's only one Tasmanian on the scraping chat who I was going to meetup with to do a bit of scraping and I still may when restrictions lift. RE the scraper just make your own, my favorite rougher is the mushroom handle one that Donnie made me. only important thing is to use a facemill to cut the seat so that the radius of a scraper blade will sit it tight without rocking (see pic below and video)
    Thanks Marcus. What length do you make the metal shank in the scrapers? If you happened to get down to Tassie at some point in the future would you be interested in running a course and if so what sort of numbers would you want?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    My 900x600x200 plate bought through Dan (that Marcus is talking about) was $850 (plus shipping from Dan's place to me)
    That's quite reasonable. But 200mm thick? That must make it about 400kg? Which brings me to another question, how does one normally deal with lifting a 400kg lump of rock once it's out of the crate? Seems like a horrible thing to try and get slings under, but I can't see any other way of dealing with it. Seems you'd be buggered if it's sitting on any kind of flat surface, how do you lift it up enough to get something under it without levering chunks out of it?

    And is Dan contactable outside Facebook, when the time comes?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde View Post
    That's quite reasonable. But 200mm thick? That must make it about 400kg? Which brings me to another question, how does one normally deal with lifting a 400kg lump of rock once it's out of the crate? Seems like a horrible thing to try and get slings under, but I can't see any other way of dealing with it. Seems you'd be buggered if it's sitting on any kind of flat surface, how do you lift it up enough to get something under it without levering chunks out of it?

    And is Dan contactable outside Facebook, when the time comes?
    The benefit of The ultra thick plates is that even when not supported on the bessy point and regardless of the load they are always flat. The actual cost of the extra thickness granite was a fraction of the cost of the plates themselves. Going from a O grade plate to a double OO means you have to go slightly thicker so that the plate doesn't deflect out of spec when under a normal load but Dan went perhaps a little crazy on the thickness and had a few plates that where only just within the OO grade relapped to the extreme end of OO. They're a real pain to move around but if I had a choice I'd go the thicker plate and RE moving it one of the Mech engineers in the scraping chat who is a real Wiz with ropes earned the nickname "King of Knots" after he lashed his huge plates with an amazing cradles of ropes to lift it into place at his hanger. this is his Myford in the video and it links to his channel in which he has a few videos working on the groups Laser interferometer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9K884qyuA4

    RE the hand scrapers, the full length of my mushroom handle rougher is 570mm and the timber handle section of it is 275mm. you may wish to change this based on your on what feels right for you. also there are several members of the chat who have stashes of sandvik blades, Gabriel ended up getting a full pack and them some when he bought his biax from the states. I have my own plus one of the gents that came from Newcastle who came for a saturday/sunday lesson was kind enough to post me a small stash as a thankyou. the recommended price the reps sell them for is 80/per insert which is insane but you can be dirt cheap, Clive the admin of the Aussie hobby machinist group on facebook just used carbide flat stock and had me lap the faces for him which worked very well. I also cannot stress how important a good brayer is, The soft white rubber "speedball" brayers from spotlight are Gods gift to scrapers. Donald a lovely fellow who attended the class brought one with him and near everyone in the class was near fighting over the brayer.

    Precision ground stones will also change your life for scraping, they completely negate the risk of over stoning and will improve your finish scraping greatly. another fellow who came for a class Micheal Conner grinds them for us very cheap. from memory it was $100 or maybe $150 for a pair but that was when he made a batch for everyone in the chat so don't quote me on that price. Michael is a really lovely guy and very meticulous, he does the stones on a huge Stanko TC cutter that was NOS when he acquired it so it does a lovely job, don't worry about the faint striations down the length of the stone when you've used them a litlle. For scraping they're great but they make any ground surface you thought you did a great job on look like garbage so they do hold you to a higher standard and can be disheartening in that respect.

    https://michealconnorwoodwork.com.au...t/contact.html


    also RE your Mill table the front to back seems to dome slightly but the major effect is along the length. this is from a few roughing cycles in on my Cincinnati Toolmaster table and in this picture the blue in the center front to back is actually a false print. Remember that hinging only allows you to detect convexity or twist along the length of a part you need to either hinge a straight edge across the width of the face or my case just rough out the center like a mad man until it stops spotting. if this doesn't make sense just imagine hinging a long cylinder square it will hinge a third in from either side but its obviously not a "flat" surface. Also even if you make the alumnium dovetail clamp lifting jigs and spot with a gantry it is still well worth making T handles. using a length of Rod one person can flip even a hefty table and two people can quickly spot and flip a table. Working as a team when rebuilding a full size mill is almost a must. if you have no Local friends interested in scraping then advertise on Gumtree, the forums or even facebook and assemble like minded local machinists interested in scraping, as a group you will save each other considerable money and time working together and sharing masters and jigs.

    69906865_457601694967434_7798298804255457280_n.jpg69720363_428105251136070_4425442990793687040_n.jpg


    also if I do make it down to Tassy I wouldn't be concerned about Numbers and I don't mind hopping from shop to shop all depending on surface plate availability of course. you'd be surprised how many 1 on 1 classes I do here and honestly its a lot less stressful. more times than I can count I've mixed a large portion of blue before a class only to have someone take it off the plate and bring it to the benches to blue a master only to leave it there and scrape a fat stack of cast iron dust directly into the container rending it contaminated and useless.

    Even when I travel abroad I usually bring my Biax with me and stay with people I've met online so I can sink tins and scrape their machines/teach a bit of scraping. I also have to admit I've done a lot of "blind scraping" without plate or master to give mates back the full travel of their mills and to give them back a positive lock in each axis so they can Bore accurately. often relying on questionable reference surfaces and Best guesses. it's not great but at least a vast improvement, one of my greatest fear is that someone would take my rough Blind scraping on a worn mill and assume it was me at my best and that I was a hack of a scraper.

  5. #20
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    Thanks for posting this detailed info guys. I have a binding cross-slide issue on my hercus lathe that I'd like to correct soon. Marcus, would you be able to give a "dot point" summary of the order of operations you would follow to correct this. Something like: measure this, scrape these surfaces , measure that, scrap those surfaces, etc? Or point me to some info/resource. Would be really helpful to get my head around where to start. I've found a lot of info on how to scrape, not so much on order of operation.

    Anyone got an opinion on Connelly's Machine tool rebuilding book as a reference for someone starting out with reconditioning?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by monchochos View Post
    Thanks for posting this detailed info guys. I have a binding cross-slide issue on my hercus lathe that I'd like to correct soon. Marcus, would you be able to give a "dot point" summary of the order of operations you would follow to correct this. Something like: measure this, scrape these surfaces , measure that, scrap those surfaces, etc? Or point me to some info/resource. Would be really helpful to get my head around where to start. I've found a lot of info on how to scrape, not so much on order of operation.

    Anyone got an opinion on Connelly's Machine tool rebuilding book as a reference for someone starting out with reconditioning?
    I have a PDF of the Connelly, see attached dropbox link below, worth buying a copy off ebay but in the meantime it should serve you well. Just remember the Connelly book is a huge collation from different machine rebuilders and Connelly never scraped a machine in his life. there is some questionable information or at least information that pertains to building machines from new to allow greater interchangeability of parts, something that doesnt apply to rebuilding a single machine. if your Hercus cross slide doesn't have a completely flat top EI the cast section at the rear you will need to use a weight when spotting the top face to shift the center of gravity over the face where the compound bolts to get an accurate print. as such hinging will not worth and an indicator will be needed to check for twist. once you have it roughly scraped at an approximation of the original surface you can insoect the flat ways. the order of operation will depend on if the slide is a 1:1 or greater or a short slide, see the image below if you dont get what I mean. if you're serious about scraping it it'd be much easier to have a chat over the phone when I knock off today

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/vp9vbnao1c...ng%20.pdf?dl=0

  7. #22
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    Thanks Marcus, the cross slide is shorter than the ways on the saddle and cross-slide is not rectangular in shape. I'd love to correct the problem but I need to gather the tools first, surface plate, scraper, etc. When I'm at that stage I'll try get in contact and have a chat about it. Thanks for the offer and the book. Actually one of the tools that I'm not sure where to source from is a straight edge with angle to use on dovetails. Anyone have recommendations, unfortunately I don't have a milling machine to make one.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by monchochos View Post
    Thanks Marcus, the cross slide is shorter than the ways on the saddle and cross-slide is not rectangular in shape. I'd love to correct the problem but I need to gather the tools first, surface plate, scraper, etc. When I'm at that stage I'll try get in contact and have a chat about it. Thanks for the offer and the book. Actually one of the tools that I'm not sure where to source from is a straight edge with angle to use on dovetails. Anyone have recommendations, unfortunately I don't have a milling machine to make one.
    If you're on Facebook (I'm not, but it's a public group), there is a guy in the Aussie Hobby Machinists group who is looking at getting a bunch of castings done, and that was one of the things that might be getting done.

    Taking a break, starting to get a bit frustrated...

  9. #24
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    grey iron durabar is the go to if you can access a Mill, I have on a few occasions scraped ductile iron camelbacks and they're far more difficult to scrape so avoid ductile iron where possible. The other issue with the Common L profile straight edge is that the extreme weight difference causes them to spot poorly when they've been scraped in and will only spot well on the side with red arrow. this can be avoided by making a counterweight that pops over the top to shift the center of gravity. it is also important to exert a slight tipping pressure when using them if you want an accurate print. This approach is also very important when scraping angle plates as most people will inadvertently tip the angle far askew when they scrape the first face.

    For those looking to simply buy a cast straight edge Denis Foster does some lovely models which are of excellent design and can be purchased Pre machined, I've yet see one in person but I've heard good things for well respected scrapers, also worth messaging him directly through practical machinist to avoid the ebay tax

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/fotodoc/m.h...1&_ipg=&_from=

    Clive in the Uk also does a lovely range which he planes personally
    https://www.instagram.com/blacksheepcrossmember/?hl=en

    Richard King of course sells his HK straight edges on ebay, I would compare them to the Brown and Sharpe straight edges which are my personal favourites.
    L straight edge issue 1.PNG

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll and Hyde View Post
    If you're on Facebook (I'm not, but it's a public group), there is a guy in the Aussie Hobby Machinists group who is looking at getting a bunch of castings done, and that was one of the things that might be getting done.

    Taking a break, starting to get a bit frustrated...
    I'd forgotten about Hayden's post, he's in the private scraping group chat on facebook. there are a few guys who don't have facebook but have the messenger app installed on their phones in that scraping group chat, I personally no longer have facebook as Both my account and the account I used when I was on a 30 day ban was permanently deleted and I've been IP banned so I cant even make a new account. To access the group chat and facebook I've actually been having to use my partners facebook account.

  11. #26
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    Frustrating day. Not helped by it generally being a bit of a black dog period again. Goes in cycles. Apologies for the negative tone this post will likely take.

    First up, checked the cross slide on the surface plate again, to remind myself what it looked like. Turns out, I had some big points conjoined. Photo below is after first past of splitting some up, you can see a few areas of heavy blue remaining.

    cross 1.jpg

    Second pass, and called it good. Bit less stiction on a trial fit to the saddle noted.

    cross 2.jpg

    That's about where the days success ended though. Spent the entire day chasing this:

    urgh.jpg

    Can not, for the life of me, figure out where I'm going wrong here, but I can't get an increase in points. Decided I must be scraping too deep, after some measurements with an indicator, so paint scraped a bunch of high points off, stoned hard, and did a few passes with less down pressure on the scraper in the hope it'd start leveling out. Ended up with the below, and I'm thoroughly over it. Had to have the blue on pretty thick just to get that, as evidenced by the smearing.

    enough.jpg

    Disinclined to waste any more of my life on it at the moment. The side that gets loaded by cutting force isn't completely horrendous, slides pretty nicely when oiled up, and the gib will still work (despite the fact it's too skinny at the thin end). Tomorrow is another day, but whether motivation returns remains to be seen.

    Decided to take a break and look at one or two other things. I'd discovered that the cross slide nut is actually a split nut, so thought I'd see about tweaking that. Turns out, one of the m4 jacking screws had the head rounded out, and neither of them were actually DOING anything, they were just there (with a gap to the surface they're supposed to push on). Fortunately I happen to have a bag of m4 grub screws kicking around, long enough for the job. Put 2 new ones in, discovered the one that had the stripped head wasn't tapped properly through. Surprise, surprise. Fixed that, had a bit of a fiddle with adjusting it, then decided to look at the screw itself.

    I knew it was wobbly, and I can push/pull the handwheel in and out a small amount. Took the cover off over the cross slide power feed gears, discovered that the long spur gear on the screw only meshed with half the mating gear in the apron. Loosen the grub screw that retains it, tried to slide it. Nope, doesn't move until you drift it with an aluminium drift. Okay, bugger that for the minute, this screw appears to be bent anyway, and looks like that gear is going to stop the screw coming out, lets take the handwheel off. Undo the cap screw that holds the handwheel, proceed to almost pull lathe over on top of myself trying to get it off. Nope, that's not going to budge without a puller.

    Really have no idea why I'm wasting my time with this thing. There is so little that is done 'right' on it. One of the reasons I pulled the cross slide off was to measure the hole in the underside for the compound studs, and the groove they ride in, because when you rotate the compound it gets stuck. I'm pretty sure the sloppy fitting studs rotate in the groove and jam on their corners - which invariably happens right at the point where you're trying to make fine adjustments. A couple of months ago I cracked it with the fiddly awkward nature of getting the change gears set just right for clearance, so looked into it. I ended up remachining the casting that carries the compound 120/127 gear because it was all on an angle, milling the flats on the stud for the same gear because they weren't the same height, and taking a bit off the shoulder for the same gear because it didn't do up tight enough to actually put any load on the centre races of the bearings, with predictable amounts of wobble. After I did all that, getting the teeth to mesh just right was finally no longer a ten minute trial and error ordeal, it just works.

    I guess the only reason I'm doing it, is because I'm telling myself the day after I finish, and it's spot on (as much as this pile of junk will ever be), will be the day a nice, decent old lathe of the type I'm keeping my eye out for appears at a nice price, and I'll have the knowledge and skills to just go for it, and maybe I'll get an extra $5 for this steaming pile. That's just how my luck usually runs.

    But it's still incredibly frustrating - people (like me) buy these things new because they're concerned about ending up with a worn out old lathe. The reality is, when you dig into these things, not much separates them from that 50 year old machine that Billy Bob has been patching up for 20 years with fencing wire and jam tim. Except that when you're done, one way you end up with a solid, dependable machine that will outlive it's owner in a home shop, and the other you still end up with a light duty noodle. And looking at the way they get these things into alignment, by hollowing out the entire centre of the contact surface, and then just trimming the 4 corners until it meets spec (maybe), the 'new machine accuracy' is bound to be shortlived - especially given they seem to warp like crazy anyway. I'm glad I bought it s/h when it was a couple of years old, I'd really be kicking myself if I'd stumped up the full retail off the showroom floor.

    IMG_20200903_193355_591x1050.jpg

    Anyone surprised by what the underside of the tailstock looks like? You shouldn't be by now. And those vertical ridges in the V way are DEEP. Probably have to drop the headstock by 3mm if you wanted to get them out.

  12. #27
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    With the tailstock, you generally raise the upper section with shims.

    Have you got enough clearance in the dovetails so it is not touching anywhere there.

    You did scrape the long section first and match the shorter section to the longer section?
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    With the tailstock, you generally raise the upper section with shims.

    Have you got enough clearance in the dovetails so it is not touching anywhere there.

    You did scrape the long section first and match the shorter section to the longer section?
    on most of the Chinese "lemon" lathes I've had come through here the Tail stock has almost always been high in some cases ridiculously high. In other cases I usually scrape the underside of the headstock to lower the centerline and set the inclination. something that if easily done with the small benchtop lathes like the Myfords (I am started to get very sick of scraping Myfords) however its not exactly practical on a large engine lathe esepcially if you have more than a few thou to take out so shimming is ab immensely more practical option.

    I have to ask, are you still running that churchill? There are loads of guys here on the coast looking at getting their lathe beds ground, Most are happy to freight the beds stripped and cleaned with no rush on the turn around. Cribpoint quoted $2000 per bed to do two CL-Y 1640a but as I understand it they have to get Marko in to run that grinder, I'm not sure if MTA got back with a quote. I think the issue was more about getting the beds down that way and back again where there are a few guys who are happy to do the run up to rocky as its in QLD should you be interested. unless he's already sent them up I think Josh still has a Box of those way grinder wheels that andre brought up from sydney at the last big scraping meetup me had.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    With the tailstock, you generally raise the upper section with shims.

    Have you got enough clearance in the dovetails so it is not touching anywhere there.

    You did scrape the long section first and match the shorter section to the longer section?
    Granted, shimming would be the easier option, but given the way the rest of this thing is, I wouldn't place any bets on the headstock being particularly planar either. In which case, while you're taking metal off that end... I wouldn't personally bother trying to get rid of all the ripples anyway, I don't think. Not interested in doing anything with it at this stage.

    Not quite sure what you mean re long section and short section? The cross slide is longer than the saddle, and I scraped that first?

    Re the dovetails - I thought I'd been pretty careful about that. Particularly on the left, being the non gib side. The right however, I was a bit less fussy with, thinking it didn't matter much because the gib doesn't run on it.

    IMG_20200904_142603_1680x945.jpg

    Used the flat side of my dovetail prism to get this print. It's not the right length, but it worked for the job. That was part of the issue, the other, which had occurred to me last night, is that the stone I was using on the bottom of the cross slide didn't fit under the dovetails, so I'd been using the little #1200 diamond plate off an Ezy-Hone (they always come unglued off the plastic handle after a while for me). I don't think it was spanning anywhere near enough length to "average out" properly. Found a diamond tile cutting wheel in my stash of angle grinder bits, went outside and hacked a side off the stone at the appropriate angle. Using that I then noticed it was just polishing the outer edge, due to the ridge in the previous photo. Addressing that helped, after spending a few passes just working the 5-10mm under the dovetail on the gib side, checking with the dovetail prism until it was blueing onto the center where I knew I had some contact with the cross slide, I managed to get this:

    IMG_20200904_153851_591x1050.jpg

    Then stuffed around a bit trying to get it a bit better, particularly hoping to increase point size. That just seemed to go backwards if anything. Not really sure why, maybe I just wasn't patient enough for it to emerge. I have that problem, anyone who considers themselves even slightly patient is going to get far better results than I did. The other thing I considered is that the scraping is possibly too deep on the cross slide for it to transfer well onto the saddle? Tested the idea by using the dovetail prism again, and it did seem to show the points as being a bit bigger, but still not ideal. But at this point I figured I've wasted enough time given this area is supposed to be a temporary improvement, no sense scraping all the way down to the bed chasing something that may well be off kilter anyway, or running out of gib adjustment.

    So it's back together. Did a short test, started by resetting centre height on most of my tools, and just locked the compound. Faced off the end of the bar below, which was cut off with an angle grinder, and certainly seemed to bump and clunk less on the interrupted cut there than it used to. Subtle, but just feels more planted. Could just be placebo effect. Then I skimmed the outside of the bar, fairly light cut, and again thought it was a bit more stable.

    This steel, I have no idea what it is. I have a few bits,they come out of Alfettas/Alfa 75s, where the brake pedal is splined onto one end, and it then runs across to the left hand side of the car to operate the brake booster/master cylinder (how the Italians made the right hand drive version). Maybe something kind of like 4340? Doesn't seem to rust readily, has a shiny finish like it's high in chrome or nickel. And it can be a bugger to machine. I've never worked out how to make it break a chip no matter the speed or feed, and when you turn a piece down in multiple passes, the workpiece gets stupidly hot after a couple of passes and you have to back the depth of cut down to about 0.1mm or it just laughs at the carbide. Put a raincoat on, run flood coolant and it turns like cheese - big DOC, no colour to the swarf.

    Anyway, after I skimmed the outside, it was about 31mm, and I need 25mm, so I thought I'd try something silly. Wound in 2.5mm (5mm off the diameter) on the crosslide, and went for it, at (I thought) 850rpm. I don't think I've ever gone for more than 2mm in this steel, and that's with coolant running where this stuff is just no issue. Without coolant I don't think I've gone for more than 1mm.

    IMG_20200904_182918_1680x945.jpg

    Result was interesting, to say the least. Maybe the machines always been capable of this, and I've just never felt confident enough? It's certainly never felt capable of getting anywhere near that in steel before, but then again I've been pushing things more lately. The biggest limitation seemed to be the motor. I was handfeeding it, and I bogged it a bit a couple of times at the start, and managed to get it right for the rest. You can't see it in the photo, but there is a tiny bit of chatter out toward the end. But given the stickout, and the bogging motor, I'd be hard pushed to say whether that was due to flex in the work given the load of the cut, or twisting of the bed under load. Certainly at no point did it feel or sound like it wanted to start chattering and carrying on. Not real bad for the puss bucket, considering that insert presents at 45 degrees, making the effective cutting edge just over 3.5mm, and the insert has a bit of wear. No idea on accuracy, didn't bother measuring it - can't imagine it'd be great anyway on that sort of cut.

    Oh yeah, and the motor bogging? Turns out I was in "2" not "3", so it was running at the 1400rpm top speed - the hardest load on the motor, given it's geared down the least. Probably would have run quite happily if I'd actually been at 850.

    I also fell into the radius/diameter trap on the next cut, realising about 15-20mm down the part, so I faced the end off pretty aggresively. By eye averaging somewhere around 2mm, and feeding hard - again, it seemed to be more solid even with that load, where I feel like I would normally have not taken anywhere near that much due to it chattering and carrying on. The carriage lock is terrible though (always been the case on this machine), needs some serious oomph on the handle to stop it walking off towards the tailstock during the cut - I wonder whether its that there's not much contact between the underside of the saddle and the bed, or the pad doesn't pull up evenly on the underside, or both.

    Will have to see how it cuts when I part the piece off tomorrow, that's probably going to be my best bet for a direct comparison. My insert parting tool usually needs an aggressive feed at speed to keep it from jumping all over that place, especially on this steel. Might try a softer touch, and see how bad it chatters.

  15. #30
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    J&H would you mind measuring the Sandvik scraper insert please, length and thickness.
    If I can get my lathe to somewhere about the point where you have got yours to then I think I will be happy. I expect it will do all I am likely to ask of it.

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