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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
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    14

    Default Local-ish Caster Wanted (QLD 4020) for Sword Copying Project

    Hi all, I have been asked to help out on a project which I was initially going to do in polyurethane with a plaster mold.

    Looks like it isn't going to work in that material.

    The Project:

    Cast an antique Japanese samurai sword, katana, so that the copy can be sent overseas to have all the furnishings custom made.

    The sword blade is in good condition but the scabbard, handle, hand guard and other fixtures and fittings all need replacing.

    Sending the original overseas is a risk that the owner does not want to take.

    If I can get an accurate cast of the blade in a lighter metal then that can be sent abroad instead.

    The guy is super keen on getting this done before his trip to Japan in March.

    I explained that it was going to be very expensive in polyurethane and he wasn't concerned about the cost. I suggested that it would probably be more in aluminium but he actually liked the idea of having an aluminium replica more.

    Questions are.

    Is this doable? The problem with polyurethane is that being long and thin the cast would deform easily. Would other metals (not necessarily married to the idea of aluminium) hold up better?

    I sent of a couple of inquiries to a local non ferrous foundry but I haven't heard back from them so I guess they are not interested.

    Are there any hobbiests who would take a crack at this project?

    Happy to do all the leg work and obviously cover expenses in material and time.

    Thanks for taking the time to read and consider this request, if you can help in any way it would be much appreciated.

    Mark

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Brisbane Australia
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Try Terry at Brisbane Foundry Ferny Hills 33516013 also could try the Trade Guild at Old Petrie Town , they have a foundry and are there Tuesdays , Fridays and Sundays from memory.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,540

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jislizard View Post
    ...I sent of a couple of inquiries to a local non ferrous foundry but I haven't heard back from them so I guess they are not interested...
    Mark, while not knowing the specifics of exactly what you asked for or how, most foundries (and workshops for that matter) are wary of these sorts of one off jobs as invariably they spend time putting a quote together and then the requester who has no idea of the real cost of this sort of thing complains about the price being quoted and is never seen again.

    Casting a long sword like a katana would be tricky too as you need to get the metal flowing all the way to the end through a long thin passageway (the blade). I heard of a guy who when doing special one off work would quote as if he was making two, and if he got lucky and the first one worked then the customer would get a second one 'for free'. Usually the cost for doing two is not much more than the cost of doing one. It's one of the things I do myself - unless something is dead simple I start off making two and at the end may have two or may have one.

    The best approach is to front up at a foundry with item to be cast with you (or in the car in the case of a sword) rather than approaches by phone. At least they can see you are serious about the job and you are prepared to make an effort to get things going.

    Michael

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Murray Bridge S Aust.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    5,942

    Default

    Would it be possible for someone to forge one, blacksmithing that is!!Might be cheaper than casting one, as a copy would have to be made , then cast.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stix012 View Post
    Try Terry at Brisbane Foundry Ferny Hills 33516013 also could try the Trade Guild at Old Petrie Town , they have a foundry and are there Tuesdays , Fridays and Sundays from memory.
    Cheers, I have emailed The Brisbane Foundry Non Ferrous Foundry | Brisbane Ind Agencies a couple of times not sure if they are the same group you suggest, the phone numbers are close but I will give them a call anyway.

    I was aiming for a hobbiest over a company because in my experience companies prefer large orders with no complications and hobbiests get bored doing the same thing multiple times and are keen to try something different.

    I will follow up both leads.

    Much appreciated.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    Mark, while not knowing the specifics of exactly what you asked for or how, most foundries (and workshops for that matter) are wary of these sorts of one off jobs as invariably they spend time putting a quote together and then the requester who has no idea of the real cost of this sort of thing complains about the price being quoted and is never seen again.

    Casting a long sword like a katana would be tricky too as you need to get the metal flowing all the way to the end through a long thin passageway (the blade). I heard of a guy who when doing special one off work would quote as if he was making two, and if he got lucky and the first one worked then the customer would get a second one 'for free'. Usually the cost for doing two is not much more than the cost of doing one. It's one of the things I do myself - unless something is dead simple I start off making two and at the end may have two or may have one.

    The best approach is to front up at a foundry with item to be cast with you (or in the car in the case of a sword) rather than approaches by phone. At least they can see you are serious about the job and you are prepared to make an effort to get things going.

    Michael
    Two copies would be twice as good in this case, he is very keen.

    I can understand not wanting to put the work into quoting if it is for a small job that is going to be expensive. In this case the potential cost of a lost or damaged antique blade is going to be far higher than the cost of casting a replica. I will let the foundry know how much the guy spent on the blade and they may be more comfortable knowing that he is happy to spend a bit on this hobby.

    I will see if we can arrange to go on a field trip to a couple of foundries with the item in tow and see if we can talk to someone.

    Cheers

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    395

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    Possibly get a metalworker to make a blade out of Al or Brass whatever.
    And then using the mould you have already made cast the handle in urethane onto the blade.
    Or epoxy or polyester, whatever your happy working in.
    A foundry may be prepared to cast an Al handle but you’d need a pattern.
    The Japs are touchy re stuff like this but the Koreans would be happy to help I’m sure.
    H.
    Jimcracks for the rich and/or wealthy. (aka GKB '88)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    14

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    The blacksmithed copy would have to be a perfect match in order for it to be fitted with handles and a hard wooden scabbarb etc. The only blacksmiths I know don't work cheap either.


    Although I did look towards getting it 3D scanned by a company which would then go on to 3D print it. The downside was that they would have to print it in several parts and then affix the parts together as their printers are not long enough. It would also be very flexible and easily damaged.

    Another option was to send the 3D scan files overseas, have the sword printed in wax, and then use a lost wax casting technique to produce the blade.

    However any variances in the scanning, printing and casting processes would multiply at each stage.

    I figured that sand casting would have fewer opportunities to go awry.

    Sand casting looks a lot of fun and I have been saving up scrap aluminium for a while but I don't think that this is a project for a first timer, no matter how easy it looks on youtube.

  9. #9
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    Mar 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by clear out View Post
    Possibly get a metalworker to make a blade out of Al or Brass whatever.
    And then using the mould you have already made cast the handle in urethane onto the blade.
    Or epoxy or polyester, whatever your happy working in.
    A foundry may be prepared to cast an Al handle but you’d need a pattern.
    The Japs are touchy re stuff like this but the Koreans would be happy to help I’m sure.
    H.
    I have made a handle in the past for one of my own blades, it is not up to the Japanese craftsmens' quality but it works.

    The scabbard makers train for 10 years before they are allowed to call themselves craftsmen, they take it really seriously.

    For an antique blade they are going to want the whole thing in the proper style, correct wood (Magnolia I think?), two part construction held together with rice starch glue that can be split for cleaning, sting ray leather grip, cloth ribbon bound on top, with the matching pommel etc. Each piece is made by a different person and I wouldn't be surprised if each piece is fitted by a different person too.

    They put a lot of effort into it and it is not going to be cheap so it really needs to be a close fit on an accurate copy.

    I am hoping that there is not too much shrinkage in the cast metal once it has been cooled!

    Thanks for the different ideas, I am very fixed on doing it one way but that's because I don't know any of the other options, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail"

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    54
    Posts
    825

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    G'day Mark,
    I think the main flaw in your plan is that producing a dimensionally accurate metal duplicate using an original item as a pattern is virtually impossible as this will not allow for shrinkage that occurs during the casting process.
    If you want a mould that will produce a near perfect duplicate your best bet is to use mould makers silicone which will capture virtually every detail of the original.
    From this you can then produce a hard wax or resin duplicate that should be fairly dimensionally accurate.
    If you still want a metal duplicate you could then use lost wax or investment casting but again, this may not be dimensionally accurate.
    Good luck.
    Cheers,
    Greg.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Thanks Greg, that was a concern.

    Even a small % of shrinkage over a 1m long blade may cause a slight inaccuracy as they are fairly close fitting parts, the handle not so much shrinkage, maybe but the length of the blade may shorten making it a little tight at the end.

    I did get in touch with a company that sells the resins and they didn't feel that they had anything that would be of any use for casting. Nothing that would hold the shape well enough over that length.

    Might be worth just doing the handle in resin and tracing the blade but I have a feeling that matching the handle to the scabbard is going to be the important part.

    On a side note, do you know anyone who can cast in resin?

    I bought a whole box of plaster bandages because that's how I do life casting, I was just going to make a two part plaster mold of the sword. I looked into mold release agent, two part resins and silicone molding and it looks like something that can get very expensive if you don't know what you are doing and waste materials.

    If anyone with experience in silicone/resin would be able to quote then it might be a bit easier, guess I will have to bug someone on another forum.

    Thanks again, much appreciated
    Mark

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    South Australia
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    1,656

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    I f the person wishing to have this done is going to have the Saya (scabbard), Tsuka (hilt), Tsuba (guard), Habaki (collar) etc, created in Japan, then I would not bother to make a copy, you are talking four different artisans/masters of their craft
    none of them if they of a high standard will have any interest in working on a copy

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    gold coast
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    303

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    I know this may be naive---but could they have a woodworker make a copy of the katana in a suitable wood by hand.

  14. #14
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    Mar 2010
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    Brisbane, Australia
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    14

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    Quote Originally Posted by China View Post
    I f the person wishing to have this done is going to have the Saya (scabbard), Tsuka (hilt), Tsuba (guard), Habaki (collar) etc, created in Japan, then I would not bother to make a copy, you are talking four different artisans/masters of their craft
    none of them if they of a high standard will have any interest in working on a copy
    From what I understand his plan is to send the copy of the blade over to a contact in China. Apparently there are quite a few people outside of Japan who are able to produce all the add-on bits, including Japanese makers who prefer to operate outside of Japan.

    I haven't seen the chap or the quality of his work but fortunately I haven't been asked about that bit.

    I know of an American who also makes the whole thing, from sword to saya to fittings, blacksmithing, copper work and woodwork. Does lovely work and I would probably go to him if I was getting it done for myself.

    Cheers

  15. #15
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    Mar 2010
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    Brisbane, Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briangoldcoast View Post
    I know this may be naive---but could they have a woodworker make a copy of the katana in a suitable wood by hand.
    It would have to be pretty accurate. Any copy is going to have to be, in order for everything to be fitted snugly.

    It would probably be kinder on the blade as I am not sure how the molding process is going to affect the blade but it is high iron content so probably doesn't need to be damp during any curing process.

    Cheers

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