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Thread: Hercus 9 B Restoration
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14th Jan 2021, 09:16 PM #1Intermediate Member
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Hercus 9 B Restoration
My last post was in 2009 and my Hercus restoration project languished untouched since then until a year ago. Most of it lay under a bench at my former workplace until I dragged it home late in 2019 not sure what I would do with it.
An examination of the collected parts inspired me to do a little further research that quickly turned up the AMH website, and I realized that it was a viable project. Being in Melbourne and working from home since March has helped with progress. I’m guessing COVID 19 has fast tracked more than a few old projects.I’m now going to attempt to document this project in the hope that some may my find my experiences useful, or at least entertaining!
Before I begin a couple of caveats: I have a trade background, but I am not a trained machinist, and although I have restored many things this is my first attempt at a machine tool.
The lathe is a 1956 ‘B’ model which was given to me around 2003. It was obviously quite worn, and I quickly discovered a serious problem, the gear teeth cut into the end of the main spindle were pretty well stripped. Shortly after that I brushed past the lathe reversing switch and there was a blue flash and all the smoke got out!! It then sulked in the corner until May 2008
0 As I begun dismantling the Hercus in May 2008 (1).JPG
A retired toolmaker friend offered to have a look at the problem, so I pulled the headstock off and passed it to him. In very short order he handed it back to me having repaired the main spindle by machining off the gear teeth and fitting a toothed sleeve that he had manufactured along with making replacements for the tumbler gears. I didn’t expect that!
Further dismantling of the lathe revealed it was in very poor condition. It appeared to have been run extensively without proper lubrication, but I suspect long use of a tool post grinder sharpening slitter knives without protection from the grit was the major cause of the severe wear
A few new parts were sourced with some difficulty along with a replacement second-hand bed with almost no wear (circa’68). The new bed and some other parts were cleaned, stripped and sprayed with colour matched paint, but by late 2009 I had run out of affordable/available spare parts and ideas.
So in February 2020 I launched back into it, painting the next batch of components and placing an order with AMH – the first of many.
The ‘new’ bed’s ways whilst essentially unworn had suffered some abuse, but an oilstone and fine diamond hone removed the high points around the dents - still leaving plenty of character! The first real challenge was that my saddle was extremely worn with deep ridges formed each side of the ways preventing it from sitting on the ‘new’ bed’s ways. I removed the wear ridges from the saddle’s ways with die grinder and files then had to relieve the underside of the saddle in several areas to ensure clearance of the tailstock ways and bed lands.
I then armed myself with a modified file and a tube of bearing blue and taught myself how to hand scrape, scraping in the saddle and tail stock base to fit the ‘new’ bed. I don’t claim any expertise with this but the result seems to work ok The clearance groove at the base of way’s ‘V’ required deepening with a hacksaw
The cross-feed’s dovetails needed a little careful work with a fine stone to bring them back to parallel, along with the gib to allow all it to be set tightly with no binding as the cross feed is wound full travel. Some good news here – seems like the cross-feed screw and nut had been replaced prior to me getting it and were in acceptable condition.
fettling the crossfeed dovetail.jpg
The lathe bed was then assembled onto the cast iron legs
Lathe bed assembled onto its legs.jpg
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14th Jan 2021, 10:02 PM #2Senior Member
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Thanks for sharing Brett I'll be following along!
AMH is a great resource isn't it, I've placed a few orders myself over the years.
You could even convert the machine to a model A without too much effort, I have seen that others have done it. If you can get a gearbox for a reasonable price anyway.
I know what you mean about Covid helping the projects, I reckon being sent home to work allowed me to condense 2 years worth of projects into 2020. And I'm still working from home so 2021 should be just as productive!
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15th Jan 2021, 12:11 AM #3Intermediate Member
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You are correct Ratters, it would not be difficult to convert it to A spec if the gearbox leadscrew etc were available at 'the right price' (I've already blown the budget!)
One of the items in my first buy from AMH was a Hercus 9 repair kit including the South Bend Lathe ‘Renovating Guide’; an absolutely invaluable resource which was particularly useful for the next item to be tackled. This was the apron which being a ‘B’ Model has power feeds. The half nuts were worn virtually smooth, and the worm and gear worn to points. The hole for pinion shaft – which carries the Hand wheel – was badly worn. I found that I had the perfect sized bronze oillite bearings in my misc’ bushing drawer so in they went.
3 Begining to bore out worn hole in apron casting.jpg
6 Bronze bearing mod done, apron ready to assemble.jpg
With a new drive key manufactured for the lead worm, the assembly of the apron proceeded. The half nuts, worm and gear, pinon shaft, gear and stud and rack gear, were all replaced by new items with lots of fettling and hand fitting required along the way. (not sure why some of my images are rotating?)
9 Apron Assembly completed except for gearbox cover.jpg
Once the apron was fitted to the saddle and the cross slide installed I was able to shim the leadscrew bearings to account for the material removed from the saddle’s ways (it was sitting low in the saddle so to speak…) 0.8mm required.
12 Apron and crosslide assembled on saddle.jpg
The original rack was heavily worn and had a couple of bent teeth, but fortunately the replacement bed came with a good one. This also required shimming, but it took 1.4mm to remove most of the backlash from the handwheel. The top/compound slide was next, with the dovetail requiring similar work to the cross-feed’s.
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15th Jan 2021, 01:16 AM #4
Hi Brett,
Re your pictures not being the right way up !
The camera stores the orientation information with the picture in what are called "EXIF" data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exif.
The forum and other web sites use this information to set the picture direction up in the same orientation as the camera when the picture was taken. This is the reason that they are rotated when viewed on the forum.
So the trick is to get rid of this data. If you edit the picture and re-save it how you want to see it then it will come out the right way up. Note that you must edit the picture, I usually just crop the edges off. Simply re-saving won't get rid of the EXIF data.
HTH.
Nice work by the way !Best Regards:
Baron J.
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15th Jan 2021, 09:50 AM #5Most Valued Member
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15th Jan 2021, 07:13 PM #6Intermediate Member
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Thanks for the tip Baron J re the images, I'll try that with the nest batch.
Regarding shimming Chris, I used hard brass sheet for the lead screw bearings and the rack, which is pretty ideal and easy to work with but any sheet metal of the required thickness would probably work. I found what I needed at a local hobby shop which had a rack of different brass sections sheets and strips in variety of thicknesses. There are cheaper sources but this was just before Lockdown 1.0 and my options were limited.
I determined the required thickness by loosening the screws retaining the rack and trying different thickness strips of scrap/washers inserted between the rack and bed tightened the screws and tested the backlash. This process would have its limitations if the rack and/or pinion were badly worn.
The lead screw bearings shimming was determined by setting the carriage in the middle of the bed tightening the saddle lock and gib. I then installed the leadscrew and bearings and closed the half nuts. the shim thickness required is the amount of bow the leadscrew adopts in this state. I tested the shimming by pushing the carriage up and down the bed and fine tuned it until resistance was minimised.
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15th Jan 2021, 08:24 PM #7Most Valued Member
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Thanks Brett. I've got some brass and copper shim. I'll have a crack at it.
Chris
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4th Feb 2021, 10:24 PM #8Intermediate Member
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There was some good news on examination of the headstock; it was obvious that the back gears, bull gear and drive pulley gears had all been ‘recently’ replaced and were as new – I imagine there is here some connection to the previously noted and repaired damage to the spindle’s spline. The headstocks main bearing surfaces were badly scored but a light application of an automotive brake took the lumps out. The spindle’s bearing surfaces only needed a light polishing with fine emery paper
All the parts requiring painting up to this point had been cleaned, processed through a stripping tank and bead blasted, but I no longer have access to this equipment so from here on it was all manual paint striping, wire brushing etc. I made no attempt to reinstate the filler and heavy priming originally applied by Hercus, but simply sprayed with Galmet red oxide metal primer and quick drying enamel colour matched to the dark blue grey the lathe originally wore. The cast irons natural surface is hence apparent under the finish.
20200606_113452.jpg
The original thrust bearing was worn and despite ultrasonic cleaning felt gritty. A direct replacement was not possible, but the local CBC outlet was helpful, and a metric substitute was found. This bearing was constructed with more but smaller dia balls resulting in a different diameter (of no consequence in this installation) and thinner, which was solved by the addition of two or three thrust washers as shims which were Loctited to the outer race for ease of installation. The only difficulty was the minor diameter of the outer race with the smaller ID was an interference fit on the spindle. This was sorted by running an abrasive flapper wheel of a slightly larger diameter mounted in a cordless drill inside the outer race for a few seconds.
20210123_072101.jpg 20210123_071512.jpg
The bearing part number is on the box above, and the thrust washer/shim number on the plastic sleeve.
20200607_085243.jpg
The main bearing’s shimming was adjusted by tightening up each bearing bolt in turn to just pinch the spindle and the bearing gap measured with feeler gauges. I then a shimmed each 0.001” over this. The spindle turned with a slight drag, but I figured that it would soon run in!
The spindle take-up nut’s thread was stripped but a second-hand replacement was supplied by AMH along with a new fibre thrust washer. New lubrication felts were fitted, and the freshly painted parts assembled with a new Hercus decal finishing it off nicely. The South Bend Lathe ‘Renovating Guide’ again proving its worth. The reverse twin gear shaft was butchered, but AMH has new ones so tumbler gears were assembled and installed.
The headstock was installed onto the bed with new bolts.
20200607_133034.jpg
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5th Feb 2021, 03:42 PM #9Senior Member
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Really loving your work! It is giving me inspiration to do this myself one day when time permits.
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21st Feb 2021, 09:44 PM #10
That looks fantastic! I'd love to see more, I'm trying to match the same colour for my 43 9C.
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24th Feb 2021, 07:19 AM #11Intermediate Member
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Thanks Ratters, Its certainly a very rewarding project. I recommend you get started on yours!
Hi Delux. Its an odd colour. Its a blue that is hard to tell from grey in some light, in the same way that navy blue can be hard to distinguish from black. I had my original colour match done old school by eye back when I started it in 2008. However that company was gone when I recently went to get a new batch. A couple of places tried to do it using a computer scanning and tinting - not even close. I then found my local Haymes paint outlet (Hoppers Crossing Vic) could do eye matching and nailed it. They filed the recipe in their system under 'Lathe Grey' - although I note that a subsequent batch was a fraction of a shade less blue. Maybe your Haymes people can talk to mine?
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24th Feb 2021, 08:44 AM #12Senior Member
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If the paint shop has some technical data for mixing up this colour maybe they could kindly pass it on to you so you can share it here? My lathe is also the exact same dark navy blue/grey with the red inner section on the bed. Ideally when I get around to doing mine I want it to be as close to original as possible. Maybe not with all that primer though! I think they must have been troweling it on judging by the depth of some of the chips in my paint.
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24th Feb 2021, 01:37 PM #13
Thanks Brett! I'm going to go see our local Haymes and see what I can find out. I removed the gearing chart and found an unmolested patch of colour. I'll take it to them and see how they go. At least I've got a couple of potential ways to match it up now!
Thanks so much for your help!!
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24th Feb 2021, 05:04 PM #14Intermediate Member
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I'll ask at Haymes next time I'm in there, but even if they provide the mixing details I suspect it will be a series of tinter codes only relevant to the system they use. I would think the stores could transfer the data though. Given the small quantities being mixed - I've only used a couple of litres - its easy to get a shade of variation between batches even with mixing instructions. Eye matching is probably best if you can find someone with the skill. I do regret not biting the bullet and just buying four litres at the beginning - cheaper in the long run and I'd never run out!
Regarding the thick paint originally applied: Yes Hercus used bog and heavy primer surfacer with lots of sanding to achieve a smooth finish on the lathes castings. They certainly would have looked nicer on the showroom floor and been easier to wipe down initially. I have made (almost) no effort to achieve this because; a. I couldn't be bothered and; b. its a lot easier to touch up a thinner finish without having to fill a divert.
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25th Feb 2021, 05:13 PM #15Intermediate Member
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Tailstock before.jpg
The tailstock that came with the lathe is an earlier style that requires a special loose spanner to lock. Inspection revealed a lot of wear on the barrel/spindle threads and free play between the handle and nut.
I couldn’t source a new barrel but AMH provided a new spindle which dealt with the bulk of thread wear. I was able to eliminate the free play when drilling the new spindle for the taper pin that retains the handle.
Setting up the tailstock on centre.jpg
Lateral adjustment to centre the tailstock is simple enough but it took a bit of trial and error to determine the precise shim required for vertical adjustment. I figured if the tailstock can clamp a thin piece of shim between centres without skewing it – things should be close enough for starters.
With headstock, bed and tailstock from different decades and other bits from here and there, this is a bit of a Frankenlathe….
Tailstock finished.jpg
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