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  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    66
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    > how do you know yours is a AmericanHercus/Southbend.....

    Derek, no that is not what I meant. I meant to say that the bearing maker Timken was an American company. In fact, Timken takes credit for having invented taper roller bearings in the first place. My (100% Australian made and sold in Australia) Hercus 260 is fitted with Timken bearings made in the UK. That is why I wondered if there may be another classification system that once was used by the Brits, different from ISO or ANSI. But its probably all wishful thinking, my bearings have no serial numbers and therefore most likely are just plain cheap common car wheel precision class.

    If intersed, my lathe was bought 1n 1988 (I know exactly who bought it). It has been used for less than 100 hours running time during its first 6 years by a company in Adelaide not far away from the old Hercus factory, doing only gas fitting modifications, mainly in brass. Then went into a looong period of storage. That is why all ways are still as new, no sign of wear or use at all. The serial number is ATM 19754, and there are no initials or signs stamped near the serial number.

    Chris

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    adelaide
    Posts
    597

    Default

    i have a new old stock 260 head stock the inner bearing numbers are left side 11162 england aa timken r in a circle
    dont want to shift the right side but i can see england and timken

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    40

    Default 260 bearings and tolerance

    My 260 (Serial 18646) has the same bearings listed above.
    Front Timken 18690 cone 18620B cup
    Rear Timken 11162 cone 113008B cup (not precision)
    The "B" is for a flanged cup.
    I do not believe Hercus used precision bearings unless they were ordered.
    The uses for bearing types in the Timken literature reflects this.
    The run out listed by Timken is 38 Mmeter for the bearings above (0.038mm?)
    This has me confused as the runout on my 260 is 0.002mm at the spindle nose.
    Does anyone have the original inspection sheet for a 260? I would guess the same as the earlier 9".
    I found the 18690 bearings as a precision set for $420USD (18690 only!)
    So over $1000 if you want a few less microns boys!!
    I might start by learning to set up correctly.

    Cheers Graeme

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    66
    Posts
    1,410

    Default

    Graeme, thanks for this info and confirmation.

    Regarding the 38micron runout, this is not static runout that can be measured with a DTI at the spindle nose. It is a dynamic runout. Meaning that there is not just one high spot and one low spot per revolution, as is the case with spindle taper runout or spindle face runout or spindle nose registration flange runout. A rolling bearing causes several high and low spots each revolution, and what is worse the pattern of these high/low spots changes with each revolution, because the cage that holds the rollers rotates at a different speed.

    For bearing experts, the term "bearing runout" and "bearing noise" have the exactly same meaning. You can hear bearing runout. You can look at bearing noise in an oscilloscope, and the real experts can even tell from this noise spectrum how many rollers the particular bearing being listened to has. One also has to keep in mind, that in a machine tool spindle a very high bearing preload must be used, much much more than say in a car wheel. This makes the bearing run hotter, but it also increases the bearing noise (and remember noise = dynamic runout).

    Personally I do not think the use of precision taper roller bearings in a lathe would let me make say more accurate shaft fits,or pistons for a model engine or the like. The difference is more in the surface finish attainable (less bearing noise = better finish), and in the roundness of parts (less bearing noise = rounder workpieces). In this regard, plain spindle bearings as in the 9" Hercus are far superior to roller bearings. But only in this regard. Lathes with plain spindle bearings and flat belt drives are capable of the finest and best surface finishes. The downside is that plain bearing lathes cannot be run at speeds as high as roller bearing lathes, and the center line of a lathe fitted with plain bearings changes with speed (as the spindle rides-up on the oil film within the bearing). Nothing is perfect.

    Chris

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    Smythesdale
    Posts
    19

    Default Koyo Bearings

    Hello everyone.

    I came across this thread and wondered if anybody else had seen the same bearings as I just found in my Hercus.

    Got to putting the gear set back on the side of my Hercus 260 ATM. Found the spindle was no longer turning.

    Seemed to turn fine initially but now it isn't!

    Took the gear set off the side again and rocked the spindle gently back and fourth with the chuck back on.

    After a bit it became free again but the front bearing is definitely emitting a rumble and I am going to guess it is toast.

    Perhaps the head stock was run with no oil at some point or somebody put grease in it rather than oil.

    Regardless I am going to need to pull the bearings.

    Now what I was expecting to find was the bearings discussed in this thread. It could be I missed it somewhere.

    But the bearing on the non chuck side is Koyo. Looks for all the world like an axle bearing to me.

    Koyo 11162 R

    I am a bit blind without my glasses but I am pretty sure that number is what it is.

    I cannot see what the bearing on the chuck side is because it is covered up by the spindle flange but I would guess it is the same.

    I also see evidence of previous hands as the hole for the C spanner in the collar on the drive side is boogered up.

    Quite a bit of, 'previous hands' on this machine :|

    Does this Koyo bearing I have found cross reference for the bearings I was expecting to find or has somebody done a bodge ?

    I see on the https://www.machines4u.com.au site both cheap bearings and the better quality bearings.

    But I am wondering if I should just replace the bearings that are in it with exactly the same ones as found?

    Anybody got any ideas about this ? I'll take a picture if anybody needs confirmation that I have not lost my mind

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holbrook, NSW
    Age
    71
    Posts
    467

    Default bearings

    front bearings 18690/18620 B cup, rear bearing 11162/11300 B cup. Don't know what the R is, maybe someone else is familiar with the reference.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    North Brisbane. Qld. Australia
    Age
    68
    Posts
    1,131

    Default

    Found this about the Koyo bearing.

    R High load capacity (Deep groove ball bearing, cylindrical roller bearing, tapered roller bearing)

    https://koyo.jtekt.co.jp/en/support/...ge/6-3000.html

    Same dimensions as the bearing number allterrain50 listed.

    If you are replacing use his info. If you order a Koyo I think you may get a cup without a flange.
    Nev.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    North Brisbane. Qld. Australia
    Age
    68
    Posts
    1,131

    Default

    I may be wrong, but have a feeling someone replaced the rear bearing in the original cup that is why you have a Koyo in there. As far as I can see Koyo do not list a 11300-B cup. You may find a similar thing has been done at the front.
    Nev.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    Smythesdale
    Posts
    19

    Default Koyo At The Front

    At the front is an 18590 Koyo. No other letters on the bearing. Does appear to be closed unlike the rear. I think maybe the rear bearing on it has spun a little. Looks like I am probably up for new bearings new races. Having a bit of trouble getting the key out of the shaft. Might have to drill and tap it to pull it out. Heating and gentle persuasion did not help. I also think the rear bearing which is where I am pretty sure the problems were has spun a little on the spindle. Will continue poking at the key and if I manage to get it out will see if I can clean the spindle up to a state where I can use it. I am going to guess the rear bearing was a 'fit' but not quite good enough as it just pulled pulled off with very little effort ( drift tight ). Did need press to get the front bearing to move but it wont go further because of the key which is stuck :/

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    178

    Default

    The rear bearing needs to be able to slide on the shaft with a little bit of effort to push it on by hand (I find at least) as it needs to be able to slide for adjustment as you adjust the spindle take up nut, also watch out for the keyway on the end float spacer when you reassemble it as it is an easy one to miss.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    Smythesdale
    Posts
    19

    Default

    Thanks everyone for this info. Allterrain50 I will be along at some point to order up a new spindle and bearings I think. I could probably clean up the original but has discoloured a bit after heating to try to get the key out. Never seen one quite so stuck before. If I am going for new bearings might as well also go for new spindle. Any recommendations on pulling out the old cups? I was going to tig em to shrink em and then tap em out.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    Smythesdale
    Posts
    19

    Question Pictures Or It Did Not Happen

    So I successfully got the key out. Drilled a hole in the key. Tapped it for an M3. Tapped out nicely with a screw in it for a bit more leverage. You can see where I discoloured it by over heating it. Before my clumsy arrival somebody else had already had a go. At the chuck end is a sorry dint. At the drive end the bearing surface has a pitter patter. Also I am not sure if the small key fell out or was absent but it is MIA. Trying to decide if I should keep this spindle and clean it up or just go for a new one. Now of course if the lathe was up and running I would braze that dint in and continue on my way. But it is the lathe I am fixing so ...

    discoloured.jpg

    nasty_dint.jpg
    bearing_pitter_patter.jpg

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    178

    Default

    The rear spacer has a spring wire in it that locates in the slot in the spindle, it stops it from spinning so if you happen to misalign it when you reassemble it it should just spin in to place and self locate, 9" spindles had a woodruff key in that position and also make sure you have between 3 and 7 thou end float between the pulley and spacer.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    Smythesdale
    Posts
    19

    Default

    I am about to order up a new spindle and I want to order a new key as well. I see in the Hercus parts manual it is listed as part 5H117. Is this key available or should I just make do with something from elsewhere? I would rather not use the original key since I had to drill a hole in it and tap it to pull it out.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    York, North Yorkshire UK
    Posts
    5,107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mixotricha View Post
    I am about to order up a new spindle and I want to order a new key as well. I see in the Hercus parts manual it is listed as part 5H117. Is this key available or should I just make do with something from elsewhere? I would rather not use the original key since I had to drill a hole in it and tap it to pull it out.
    Hi Mixotricha,

    I wouldn't worry to much about the hole ! The key needs to be a good fit anyway, and if it seems too tight to fit properly a rub on some fine emery cloth will sort that.
    Best Regards:
    Baron J.

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