Thread: Torch Welding Brass/Bronze

I would, even being humble, classify myself as a very good torch welder. Even my full penetration welds in steel, chrome moly and the like look like wider TIG welds.

So, with that conceited intro- I have never really thought about this. Is there a way to weld brass wherein the rod is amalgamated with the base metal- or a hybrid of brazing that melds? I want to make brass depth stop assemblies for plough planes and since I don't cast things, I was thinking on this. I have a Dillon(now Henrob) and Victor Aircraft and Victor full-size oxy-acet setups. Torch welding is still my favorite. Amazes them when you weld uphill or over top- they don't get to see that little surface tension"C" with the hole in it waiting for the next dip. Anyway, ideas? Thanks,jet

Originally Posted by J.E. Mike Tobey

Is there a way to weld brass wherein the rod is amalgamated with the base metal- or a hybrid of brazing that melds? I want to make brass depth stop assemblies for plough planes

Gday Jet,

Using your wording "amalgamated with the base" no ,but to clear a little thing up first, brazing is always a bonding process where the two metals,the metal being joined and the filler metal never meld or fuse with one another.The obvious exception of course is when you are joining brass items.

High quality brazing joints can be achieved by utilizing the capillary action of brazing.You are dealing with 2 types of joint design, lap joints and vee joints.

In the lap joint the bonding is a mechanical one as the filler metal (the brazing) flows into the microscopic pores of the parent metal ( the pieces being joined) . A large surface bonding area is desirable in this case.Typically it's application is for thin section metals.

The vee joint is more suitable for thicker materials and would be prepped to 30 degrees.Manganese bronze is the choice of filler as the surface areas are smaller and the tensile on the brazed joint is higher.

Naturally you must tack up in a number of opposing areas before staring to braze any appreciable length.

Don't overheat the brass in its molten state as the zinc content will vaporise and your job will be ruined.You only have a very small window between starting to melt and vaporisation.The agitated state of the metal will be your sign this is happening.

Lastly in case you are not familiar with the use of flux ,the wourk is heated and the flux sprinkle on so it sticks because of the heat. Do test pieces first .I can advise that it is more than adequate for plane body assembly. Derk Cohen our plane Guru may have more info on that for you.

If any problems we are here to help

Happy brazing
Grahame

Oh wondrous Guru, I appreciate your fine and considered reply. So, what I want to do is "weld" 3/32nd brass to make shaft and foot for a depth stop for a plough plane. So, to some extent, I will be making little partial rectangular boxes. If steel, I would clap my hands and my250 amp AC/DC water cooled TIG-- No, Mikie sold it-arrrgh, Then I could carefully fill the V joints created by positioning the steel with a compact bead leaving little to file into a nice radius. When I welded everyday, I would torch weld aluminium just to prove it could be done. But the brass isn't quite as eager to unite with the rod, is it?- Maybe I should just use stainless steel stock. I have special welding rod that is excellent for 360 SS. For precise welds like these, I favor my Dillon- it is really a gem unless reach is an issue. Please educate me further when you have time and inclination. Appreciation, jet

Jet,
Do me a favor please! I am Grahame not the !@#*&%Guru.This crap was started by someone ,admittedly well meaning ,but its started to get out of hand .Honestly!I positively cringe at being called a guru.So lets leave it there.Please! Grahame is fine with me!

The brazing is essentially the same process as soldering just a couple of hundred degrees higher.The dillion will do the work well.Its Aussie designed did you know.

It will take longer to heat up the rod than it will the 3/32" brass sheet so the heat is focused on the last 1/4" of the rod first.

Again,I stress, its not a weld,its two separate metals that never fuse with one another.

The free flowing metal just locks into the the porous surface off the other and when cooled the two are mechanically interlocked not fused..

I urge you to practice this first ,while it is not overly difficult ,it does require a bit of understanding and skill.It often takes practice not to overheat the brazing pool and burn out the zinc content.A bit too long on the one area and poof white smoke and its ruined.Don't inhale the smoke it will make you crook.Wear a respirator if you have any doubts.

Heat the end of the rod (to be joined) dip it in powdered flux.Heat the brass and sprinkle on a pinch of flux until it sticks. Align the two in final position ( you may need something or someone to hold it in position.
Heat the rod first until it gets red and watch the flux which will have melted and turned a clear watery color.

Stroke the filler wire along the joint line when the brass is red hot. If hot enough you will melt it and it will blend from the heat of joint-DO NOT DIRECTLY HEAT THE FILLER WIRE WITH THE FLAME.

With the practice it is near foolproof if you follow the procedure.

best of Luck
Plain ordinary every day bloke
non guru Grahame

No more G___. They did that to me on sharpening stuff on the Woodnet forum. It is odd how that 60's word became so enmeshed in daily use. Thanks for the instruction. For some reason brazing has always challenged me. Practice, I guess. Regards, jet

When I welded everyday, I would torch weld aluminium just to prove it could be done. But the brass isn't quite as eager to unite with the rod, is it?

Many many years ago when I was an apprentice I was taught to weld aluminum with a torch. I don't have a Henrob/Dillon, I use my comet torch.
I have lost count of how many people have told me it can't be done. I used to argue the point, by explaining the process etc, but now I just usually reply with something like.... "oh well if you say it can't me done, I must be wrong then".

I haven't used a Dillon, but saw the demo guy at the Henty field days a few years back, doing the promo "weld up the coke can trick". It looked like an impressive little unit, although quite costly.

I'll stick with the big bottles and the comet torch though.

Hi Folks,
I have the Henrob and I love using it. I don't get to do it very much any more but a few years ago I used it to weld up a few space frame chassis for some clubman cars and then used the torch to weld up the Al pertol tanks, overflow bottles and various cooling pipes. All from Al. It took quite a bit of practice but I got there in the end. It was the same with TIG... lots of practice for the Al and take note of the material, thickness, shape and make sure all the joints are as clean and fresh as possible.

Now, to the main point of all of this. Would it not be possible to fusion weld brass sheet, or rod, if the filler rod you are using are of the same alloy? For example, if I wanted to make a small brass box I could cut thin strips of the sheet material to use as the filler rod. That way the melting point of the two materials is the same and if one gets the heat just right, you get the rhythm going with the dipping of the filler rod(strip) it should all just go as well as mild steel, but be as difficult to learn as oxy welding Al.
I know that brazing is quicker and less work but I did get hooked by the welding thing and I love it when the tradies at work ask me to do some welding for them on their bikes or special works.

Just come in for a bit of a break from the clean upof the big wet.

It has become obvious I have missed explaining something. put it down to Alzheimer's maybe?

This is with a brass to brass joint. This of course would not fall in the definition I given above. The term for this is braze welding as the parent metal in this case is virtually same as the filler stick.

As with all molten brass situations you are still operating within that little temperature window to keep the pool from flashing off the zinc content.

I might add to this and say with silver solder the temperature window is even smaller.

The observation and control of temperature is a skill that is highly dependent on knowing the characteristics and heat absorptions relative to thicknesses of the metals you are working on at the time.

Changing from one metal to another means a recognition those different variations and responding accordingly.
Fossil ? are you like me.Having welded the aluminium with the CIG white acid hygroscopic flux.?
Not a beautiful finish by any means but quite adequate.

The school purchased a Henrob and I can say while I have used it, I do much prefer the Comet 3 Torch where I will happily take all comers on, with it.

I suppose after forty years of manipulating the Comet ,a Henrob just feels "unatural" to me.

Grahame

Yep, the Comet is the main tool for most of the Aussie's that have had a crack at any form of Oxy welding. I still use it for most of the thicker material. Any thing <2mm and I'll go for the Henrob every time. The lower gas pressure needed dosen't blow the weld puddle out on the ultra thin stuff. But at the end of the day they are just tools.

I am not familiar with the Comet. However, a Victor "Aircraft" Style is about 9-10 inches long with tip and the body is about 7/16" thich and 1 1/8th" wide. very light and reaches places Dillon/ Henrob cannot. My arrestors are quick change connections . The Dillon style can get heavy after a long session. In point of fact, my little Victor has almost the same flame control as the D/H but there is this odd but pleasant feeling of gentle flame with the D/H. Ah, who knows? mt

Fossil ? are you like me.Having welded the aluminium with the CIG white acid hygroscopic flux.?
Not a beautiful finish by any means but quite adequate.

Am I like you?????

I don't know. I am an exeptionally good looking man with outstanding intelligence! Is that like you??

The flux that I use is white powder. I was given to me by my brother about 15 years ago. It is in an aluminium tin, and the paper label is all but gone. I mix the powder with distilled water to form a paste. My brother says he has some stuff from the U.S. that is applied as a dry white powder. The powder melts to a thick liquid, just before metal has reached appropriate pool temp, which is why he says he likes it. I will get the name of it if anyone is interested.
I have attached a pic of the comet torch which is at the end of arrow. It is just a normal oxy welding and cutting torch Mike. We just like the commet torches in Australia, because they are made here, and are what we are used to. CIG is a now defunct company taken over by BOC gases, and then Lynde. It stands for Commonwealth Industrial Gases. FYI

Fos

Originally Posted by Fossil

Am I like you?????

I don't know. I am an exeptionally good looking man with outstanding intelligence! Is that like you?? ................

Aah, you're just like me then.

Mick

I suppose you are the unassuming retired type Mick, that doesn't boast either! Just like me.

why dont you silver solder the pieces together ? just as strong and easier? just a thought . cheers bob

Originally Posted by Fossil

I suppose you are the unassuming retired type Mick, that doesn't boast either! Just like me.

Why shucks , besides the retired bit you seem to have hit the nail on the head.

Mick