Thread: TIG & MMA Welders & Welding

I thought given that I had hijacked (not intensionaly) a MIG thread to talk about TIG issues it maybe wiser to set up a thread for TIG itself.

I'd like to thank the guys below for their replies to my queries - much appreciated.

Grahame - In regard to your reply you mentioned a Fronious unit that I have never heard of - where are they made?. This morning I went to the local BOC depot and had a look at the Kemppi Mastertig range (15A) and was impressed by the unit. However, I will go back in the next few weeks to have a demonstration of one in use (in house). I have learnt from past experiences in life that apart from the equipment (e.g. cars, lathes) that you have to have the service to back up the unit. That is why I would prefer to deal with someone locally and not one interstate as is usually the case when buying on Ebay. I buy & sell things on EBay and have found out that items purchased are not the way they are described and even look:mad:. As they say sometimes you have to pay extra for peace of mind. The reason I am know looking at a 15A 240V machine is that I was told on Wednesday I was going to be retrenched in a fortnights time, so I am toying with the idea (and many more) of maybe starting to do some welding on a casual basis. Thus if I get tasks to do on site(s) I won't have that much trouble getting 240V power as I would with 3 phase.

Mick I have attached a couple of images that may help you to distinguish whether I can have 3 phase or not?.

Does anyone here ever worked (or have) either a 240V or 3 phase Tig welder they would like to share their opinions on please?.

Thanks to all.

Cheers
David


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Head
Given that I want this installed in my shed at home (residential) are there people (e.g. council, electrical company etc) that I have to get in touch with in order to get permission to do this?. Secondly, would anyone have any idea (apart from alot ) how much it will cost to have 3 phase fitted and do I have to seek a special type of electrician to install it?.


The simple answer, David, is to grab hold of a good electrician (just look one up in the yellow pages), ask for a quote, and basically leave it to them. In QLD there are no special requirements. Three phase capacity should be outside your house, and it's just a matter of running it in. It is expensive, I wouldn't be thinking of getting away with much under $2000 by the time it's installed. They have to run the cable (underground or overhead) install circuit breakers and new outlets and so on. All three phase electrical componenets are exxy. A plug or socket costs over $50.00.

It is worth it though. Once you have it you enter a new market where you can buy three phase machinery relatively cheaply. I bought a 200amp three-phase CIG MIG with traveller, two torches and a good roll of wire for $200.00, and it's been a gem. On Ebay during the week I bought a 2.2KW induction motor for $27.00, and so on....

You also enter a world of power. For instance, my stick welder runs up to 300 amps, and I bought a 10HP rip saw on Ebay that literally weighs a tonne. Because of this power, as Grahame has pointed out, three phase welders just seem to weld better. You can feel the smoothness the first time you use them.

If only I could actually weld, I'd be really happy (keep writing Grahame, I'm listening!).

If you need to justify it, just remember that once installed it can also be used for three-phase air conditioners with the power to run ducting through the house.
___________________________________________________________________

David,
wander out onto the street (if you have overhead powerlines) and count the wires running past your house. If there's four (3 phases and neutral) then you're fine. If you don't (and some areas don't) then unless you spend a lot of money, you're stuffed. If the power in your area is underground then you need to talk to the supply authority.

Mick
___________________________________________________________________

Sorry people, been off line for a time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Head
do I have to seek a special type of electrician to install it?.


Yes the special type of electrician is one of the rare ones .
What you are looking for, of course, is one that turns up when on time and on the day he said he would.

You can get caught with Tig too, if you are intending bigtime on the aluminium welding route .The torch will heat rapidly and unless you intend on welding for 3 mins and cooling for 10, avoid the air cooled torch.From what I have seen in industry ,the pros all use water cooled torches.

Another way around it may be to go to a A Fronious AC/DC unit.Yes they are very expensive but may well be under the set up cost of 3 phase.Once again I stress - air cooled torch.
The other side of the argument as noted by Ross Luck was the very cheap price good second hand 3 phase gear can be had for.In any case if you feel the ally work would justify it go for the water cooled torch.

Thats my two o bob's worth today

Grahame

Hi David, bad news about your job, but at least you had some advance warning. Glad to see that you are taking advantage of opportunities. I have a Fronius Magicwave 1700 sitting in the garage right now on trial,I am retiring in a year or two and am going to work at a "niche operation" requiring minimal equipment and utilising my skills gained over many years.In a way we shall be doing similiar things.

< you mentioned a Fronious unit that I have never heard of - where are they made?>.

Germany

< That is why I would prefer to deal with someone locally >
SEMCO the Australian agent for Fronius is in Melbourne

<that items purchased are not the way they are described and even look . As they say sometimes you have to pay extra for peace of mind>
Around $5000 for the 1700

<Thus if I get tasks to do on site(s) I won't have that much trouble getting 240V power as I would with 3 phase>
Ask if the other inverter machines will run from a generator – Fronius can.

I have run this machine at home and yet to see any problems with radio frequency interference – Make sure of this if you are doing a bit of work from home. neigbours will complain.

A small negative I would raise is that the machine controls are complex and not for the technologically challenged ( Me! I have trouble setting the VCR ) The manual is large and should be read over and over gain. Go here for the Australian Importer Smenco

http://www.smenco.com.au/fronius.htm

You will have more questions for sure.If you wish to send me a PM I am more than happy to answer them privately.
Last thought
Have you had Oxy welding experience .It is a superb lead up to TIG work as the wire filler manipulation is almost identical.

Regards Grahame

David,
you have got 3 phase running past your door.

Mick

Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

David,

you have got 3 phase running past your door.

Mick

Thanx for that Mick.

Cheers
David

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Hi David, bad news about your job, but at least you had some advance warning. Glad to see that you are taking advantage of opportunities. I have a Fronius Magicwave 1700 sitting in the garage right now on trial,I am retiring in a year or two and am going to work at a "niche operation" requiring minimal equipment and utilising my skills gained over many years.In a way we shall be doing similiar things.

< you mentioned a Fronious unit that I have never heard of - where are they made?>.

Germany

< That is why I would prefer to deal with someone locally >
SEMCO the Australian agent for Fronius is in Melbourne

<that items purchased are not the way they are described and even look . As they say sometimes you have to pay extra for peace of mind>
Around $5000 for the 1700

<Thus if I get tasks to do on site(s) I won't have that much trouble getting 240V power as I would with 3 phase>
Ask if the other inverter machines will run from a generator – Fronius can.

I have run this machine at home and yet to see any problems with radio frequency interference – Make sure of this if you are doing a bit of work from home. neigbours will complain.

A small negative I would raise is that the machine controls are complex and not for the technologically challenged ( Me! I have trouble setting the VCR ) The manual is large and should be read over and over gain. Go here for the Australian Importer Smenco

http://www.smenco.com.au/fronius.htm

You will have more questions for sure.If you wish to send me a PM I am more than happy to answer them privately.
Last thought
Have you had Oxy welding experience .It is a superb lead up to TIG work as the wire filler manipulation is almost identical.

Regards Grahame

Fronius are actually made in Austria. I used to sell quite a few of their machines. In my opinion the Kemppi is the best machine (it is made in Finland) I still sell plenty of them and they are very reliable and have great back up. $5,000.00 for a 1700 is way over the top. You could get a brand new Kemppi AC/DC 2000 for about $4500.00 including GST. An H/F D.C. only machine would sell for only about half that. I have been selling welding equipment for 25 years so I have had plenty of experience and don't mind answering any questions you have because that's what I hope for from here when I have wood working questions. I'm in NSW but could steer you to someone in your area for a good deal if you're interstate.

Originally Posted by bez

Fronius are actually made in Austria. I used to sell quite a few of their machines. In my opinion the Kemppi is the best machine (it is made in Finland) I still sell plenty of them and they are very reliable and have great back up. $5,000.00 for a 1700 is way over the top. You could get a brand new Kemppi AC/DC 2000 for about $4500.00 including GST. An H/F D.C. only machine would sell for only about half that. I have been selling welding equipment for 25 years so I have had plenty of experience and don't mind answering any questions you have because that's what I hope for from here when I have wood working questions. I'm in NSW but could steer you to someone in your area for a good deal if you're interstate.

Hi Bez,

Thanks for the reply. The machine I saw was the top of the range (in the Kempipi 2000 series - AC/DC) with all the whistles but not the assessories. This would cost $5000 @ BOC in Preston, Melbourne. How much cheaper would just the DC be although I'm bound to kick myself (in the long term) for not having the aluminium option:confused:. If you do have connections here in Melbourne who maybe who could do a cheaper deal then I am all ears. If you prefer to PM me or you could send the info to my email address at

[email protected]

Please Note - There is an underscore in between jackson & close.

Thanking you in advance of your reply.

Cheers
David

Bez,
Thanks for the correction on Austrian Manufacture
You say that that the Kemmpi is the better make.
What are the comparisons that you can point out that makes the Kemmpi a better buy?
The machine I am offered comes equipped with MMA leads and basic torch ,one that controls the amps from the handpiece.
The Fronious Magicave 1700 has the following features
Checklist

Energy-saving inverter technology
Anti-stick function
Automatic ball formation
Automatic post-gas time (welding current dependant)
Carrying strap
Continuous welding-current adjustment
Digital welding process
Gas test function
Generator compatible
Hot Start
Lift arc ignition / HF switchable
Machine earthing test
Microprocessor control
Operating-hours counter
Over temperature sensor switch
Polarity switchover
Quieter arc with Active Wave
Remote controllable
RPI ignition
S-Sign, CE-Sign standard
Thermostat controlled fan
Upgrading though modular system
In addition I found that it does not seem to generate RF interference.

I would like to find how the AC DC Hf Kemmpi compares?

Regards
Grahame

Bez

Does your statement of Kemmpi hold for MIGs as well?

I know off the subject.

What is the difference between AC/DC and just DC tig machines?

Bez can you narrow down where in Sydney you are?

Thanks

pulpo

David and Grahame. Sorry I haven't answered your questions but I will reply to you both in detail tonight. Having sold both Fronius and Kemppi machines and especially TIG machines, the most important things when buying any machine are performance, reliability and service. i.e. warranty and future spare parts. In my experience this is where the Kemppi far exceeds anything else on the market. The Kemppi and Fronius are very similar in technology and features. I wouldn't buy a D.C. H/F machine, i would always opt for the AC/DC version. Most people buy AC/DC but we do sell a few D.C. only units to people who never want to do any Aluminium. It's worth thinking about seriously though before making your final decision because if you buy a D.C only machine, you can't convert it to do Aluminium, you have to buy another machine.
Will give you more info tonight
Regards
Bez

David, Re the machine you were quoted. Was that with the Pulse panel and 8 metre torch and does it include GST ? There are 3 panels available for the AC/DC 2000. There is a new model (230) due for release in about may but it will be more expensive. They are still going to keep the 2000 model going. There will be a few 2nd hand/trade ins on the market when that is released. I already have about4 or 5 trade customers wanting to upgrade when it is released.

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Bez,


I would like to find how the AC DC Hf Kemmpi compares?

Regards
Grahame

Grahame, the Kemppi doesn't have Automatic ball formation or up/down current control on the torch handle (although it will have on the new model and we have fitted them on a few occassions to the current model). What it does have is the best welding arc on A.C. a higher duty cycle (which is very important) and reliability with after sales service. Kemppi has an office in Sydney who imports and distributes their products from their parent company in Finland, through a distributor network. They have a massive store of machines and parts and have regular airfreights arriving weekly. Fronius on the other hand is imported to Australia by an Agent. If you ever get a problem, there is nothing like factory support in the country you llive in. The Kemppi AC/DC is by far the largest selling machine in NSW (don't know about other states but I'd imagine they're the same). They have been bought by hobbyists, people who specialise in custom car fabricationturbos, manifolds etc) and companies for large production runs. They are super reliable and easy to use. Granted, it may not be as small as the Fronius but it wasn't as small as the Esab AC/DC 180 which was popular a few years ago (it only weighed 11KG) and after 2-3 years of operation, they were dropping like flies, sometimes uneconomical to repair. Don't just take my word, do your research, ask repair companies about turnaround times should a problem occur and cost and availability of parts. Hope this helps.
Regards
Bez

Originally Posted by Pulpo

Bez

Does your statement of Kemmpi hold for MIGs as well?

I know off the subject.

What is the difference between AC/DC and just DC tig machines?

Bez can you narrow down where in Sydney you are?

Thanks

pulpo

Hi pulpo, no problems.
Kemppi 3 phase migs are among the best on the market. They don't sell any single phase migs here in Australia. A few months ago they introduced a lightweight inverter 240v mig machine 150 amps but to be honest I'm not a fan of it (and i told them so) and it is not selling as well as they hoped. The 240V mig market is very price conscious, if you want cheap you'd buy a CIGWELD or UNIMIG (Malaysian and Italian respectively) but if your after a better quality buy a WIA or an ESAB. A little bit more expensive but far better.
D.C. machines are for welding Steel, Stainless steel , Chrome Moly etc. AC/DC machines weld all of those when in DC mode but when in AC mode can weld Aluminium. Magnesium and their alloys.
Hope this helps

Sydneys western Suburbs but we do all of the metro area.
Regards
Bez

Originally Posted by bez

Hi pulpo, no problems.
Kemppi 3 phase migs are among the best on the market. They don't sell any single phase migs here in Australia. A few months ago they introduced a lightweight inverter 240v mig machine 150 amps but to be honest I'm not a fan of it (and i told them so) and it is not selling as well as they hoped. The 240V mig market is very price conscious, if you want cheap you'd buy a CIGWELD or UNIMIG (Malaysian and Italian respectively) but if your after a better quality buy a WIA or an ESAB. A little bit more expensive but far better.
D.C. machines are for welding Steel, Stainless steel , Chrome Moly etc. AC/DC machines weld all of those when in DC mode but when in AC mode can weld Aluminium. Magnesium and their alloys.
Hope this helps

Sydneys western Suburbs but we do all of the metro area.
Regards
Bez

Hi Bez,

Thanks for the reply - much appreciated.

I did a reply last night but when I came to load it - it crashed:mad:. I then tried to get back on the site for the next 20 minutes without any success. However, at some stage tonight I will forward the reply.

Cheers
David

Originally Posted by bez

Hi pulpo, no problems.
Kemppi 3 phase migs are among the best on the market. They don't sell any single phase migs here in Australia. A few months ago they introduced a lightweight inverter 240v mig machine 150 amps but to be honest I'm not a fan of it (and i told them so) and it is not selling as well as they hoped. The 240V mig market is very price conscious, if you want cheap you'd buy a CIGWELD or UNIMIG (Malaysian and Italian respectively) but if your after a better quality buy a WIA or an ESAB. A little bit more expensive but far better.
D.C. machines are for welding Steel, Stainless steel , Chrome Moly etc. AC/DC machines weld all of those when in DC mode but when in AC mode can weld Aluminium. Magnesium and their alloys.
Hope this helps

Sydneys western Suburbs but we do all of the metro area.
Regards
Bez

Hi Bez,

I’m still at work but bugger it. It’s my last day after 16 years service.

Anyway, if my memory serves me correctly the quotes were

Starter pack = $3950 + GST
Mini log = $4350 + GST
Pulse = $4700 + GST

These prices include a 2 year warranty + 8m TIG torch lead + 5m earth lead + gas regulator

Options – Foot controller = $1000
&
A TIG torch with control button/lead = $800

What is your impression of the prices quoted – fair?.

I have been lucky in the past that I have used TIG machines that had both a foot controller as well as a stop/start button on the torch handle – ESAB/Millers. Thus how would one control the amount of heat going into a weld without these accessories?, is it where the “Pulse” panel machine would come into its own?.

Hypothetically what would the criteria (skill level) of the operator be required for purchasing one of the above machines?.

I apologize for all the questions but I would appreciate a reply as I am still pretty naive when it comes to welding machines.

The image(s) are of the 3 panels on offer.

Cheers
David

Originally Posted by Metal Head

Hi Bez,

I’m still at work but bugger it. It’s my last day after 16 years service.

Anyway, if my memory serves me correctly the quotes were

Starter pack = $3950 + GST
Mini log = $4350 + GST
Pulse = $4700 + GST

These prices include a 2 year warranty + 8m TIG torch lead + 5m earth lead + gas regulator

Options – Foot controller = $1000
&
A TIG torch with control button/lead = $800

What is your impression of the prices quoted – fair?.

I have been lucky in the past that I have used TIG machines that had both a foot controller as well as a stop/start button on the torch handle – ESAB/Millers. Thus how would one control the amount of heat going into a weld without these accessories?, is it where the “Pulse” panel machine would come into its own?.

Hypothetically what would the criteria (skill level) of the operator be required for purchasing one of the above machines?.

I apologize for all the questions but I would appreciate a reply as I am still pretty naive when it comes to welding machines.

The image(s) are of the 3 panels on offer.

Cheers
David

Hi David, I wrote an answer to all of your queries tonight. It would have given War and Peace a start and a floggin' in the amount of written text and as I went to submit my reply the modem dropped out and I lost the lot. Thank God Optus don't have anything to do with welding. I have sent you an email instead. If anyone else wanted to know any of the answers to Davids queries, let me know and I will post them here again for you. (Not tonight though, i've done enough typing to last me a month)
Regards
Bez.

Originally Posted by Metal Head

Hi Bez,

I’m still at work but bugger it. It’s my last day after 16 years service.



Cheers
David

Got to be a sad day. I don't expect a reply from you for a few days.
Good luck.
regards
bez