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  1. #16
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    Cigweld stuff seems to be like that. Running a Cigweld transmig 250SE on my 15 amp supply and it will cut the flick down fuse after a short time running it at a high amperage. You might get a minute or two welding time out of it.

    Upgrade to a 32 amp plug and the duty cycle improves considerably although the instantaneous output at the welder is unchanged.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  2. #17
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    Apr 2021
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    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    Cigweld stuff seems to be like that. Running a Cigweld transmig 250SE on my 15 amp supply and it will cut the flick down fuse after a short time running it at a high amperage. You might get a minute or two welding time out of it.

    Upgrade to a 32 amp plug and the duty cycle improves considerably although the instantaneous output at the welder is unchanged.
    Yes, the new imposed (lower) duty cycle seems to be an instruction to the user rather than something that would trigger a thermal or other overload of the machine. What it does trigger is the circuit breaker that is limiting the average current on the GPO.

    It is strange that CIG would take the opportunity to fit a lower rated mains cord so that if you have (or upgrade to) a "proper" outlet, you need to upgrade the cord.

    Your comments confirm that the machine itself (except for the power cord) is not changed in an Australian model - just the instructions. Thank you.

    By the way, does the "colour of choice" relate to bullion or to TIG welding?

    Jack

  3. #18
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    Dec 2018
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    NSW
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    It's funny that a power hungry machine will trip a 15A circuit, but work fine on a 32A.

    There is some marketing tactic there for sure. The first thing people think when they see a single phase, 32A plug is "that's 3 phase". Proportionately fewer people have this in a home workshop. Which is where a 35-60A plasma would be used.

  4. #19
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    Apr 2021
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    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    It's funny that a power hungry machine will trip a 15A circuit, but work fine on a 32A.

    There is some marketing tactic there for sure. The first thing people think when they see a single phase, 32A plug is "that's 3 phase". Proportionately fewer people have this in a home workshop. Which is where a 35-60A plasma would be used.
    And then the welder's power cord won't reach the power point so you need an extension cord. What's the difference between a 10 and a 15 amp extension cord - more insulation, the conductors are all 2.5 mm2 (assuming "heavy duty"). I don't know what a 25 or 32 amp extension cord looks like - I've never seen one.

    Jack

  5. #20
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    The circuit breaker protects the conductors. ie the wires.
    The machine's over temp circuit protects it's conductors.

    There are specs for what plugs need to be fitted to machines - namely the effective current (search my posts, I've spoken about this more times than I care to remember). These plugs need to be backed with suitable cross sectional area conductors for the machine side -IIRC 32A is a 4.0mm square CSA conductor. A standard home spec power cord is 1.5mm^2, a heavy duty extension lead cable is 2.5mm^2, so this is quite a bit bigger than a large extension cord.

    The engineering controls then come into the equation per AS3000 which the sparkies adhere to- meaning that a circuit with a GPO on in needs to meet requirements for the cable size back to main circuit board, the size of conductors from main board to attachment point, and wires to the mains system (on the stobie pole), plus the voltage drop, number of cables in a conduit etc etc etc on premise.

    This is so ham-fisted numpties don't (ie Can't- per design of the plugs and sockets) stick the wrong thing into the wrong outlet and put conductors at risk of melting and catching alight... where bad things can happen.

    And if your power points are not close enough to where you want to use your machine... have a guess which trade you gonna call?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post

    And if your power points are not close enough to where you want to use your machine... have a guess which trade you gonna call?
    Bunnings to get a extension cord and double adapter. And might as well get some stuff to make a 10 amp to 15 amp adapter.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    Bunnings to get a extension cord and double adapter. And might as well get some stuff to make a 10 amp to 15 amp adapter.
    I literally had a guy tell me that his welder wasn't working, piece of junk yadda yadda yadda... then it comes out he was adapting 15A>10A then on the end of 60m of extension cords. The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me.

  8. #23
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    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    The circuit breaker protects the conductors. ie the wires.
    The machine's over temp circuit protects it's conductors.

    There are specs for what plugs need to be fitted to machines - namely the effective current (search my posts, I've spoken about this more times than I care to remember). These plugs need to be backed with suitable cross sectional area conductors for the machine side -IIRC 32A is a 4.0mm square CSA conductor. A standard home spec power cord is 1.5mm^2, a heavy duty extension lead cable is 2.5mm^2, so this is quite a bit bigger than a large extension cord.

    The engineering controls then come into the equation per AS3000 which the sparkies adhere to- meaning that a circuit with a GPO on in needs to meet requirements for the cable size back to main circuit board, the size of conductors from main board to attachment point, and wires to the mains system (on the stobie pole), plus the voltage drop, number of cables in a conduit etc etc etc on premise.

    This is so ham-fisted numpties don't (ie Can't- per design of the plugs and sockets) stick the wrong thing into the wrong outlet and put conductors at risk of melting and catching alight... where bad things can happen.

    And if your power points are not close enough to where you want to use your machine... have a guess which trade you gonna call?
    Thanks for the summary but I don't have a problem with the regulations. My comment was really about what is easily available.

    There is no difference between a 10 amp and a 15 amp GPO (aside from the sockets themselves) - the wiring is the same. The difference is in the number of GPOs that can be attached to the circuit (share a CB). A "heavy duty" 10 amp extension cord bought from the likes of Bunnings looks identical to a 15 amp extension cord except for the plugs and sockets.

    I have not seen an extension cord for a 25 or 32 amp circuit - they are not sold at the likes of Bunnings or even the local tool shop. For the odd time that a welder cord might not reach a power outlet, I don't have a problem using an extension cord. There will be less loss extending the power cord than extending the work leads.

    Of course, if I frequently had a problem where the welder cord didn't reach the outlet (in the same direction), I'd get another outlet fitted.

    Regards
    Jack

  9. #24
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    We have a esab rebel on the boily ute at work, and we have been less than impressed with it. bought it to run off a genset for site work, and bought the recommended sized genset. turns out they are intolerant of any input voltage drop, after a few fried control boards, we now have to haul our 30kva genset around to use it. I was keen to get one for home, but not after the trouble we have had.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post

    I have not seen an extension cord for a 25 or 32 amp circuit - they are not sold at the likes of Bunnings or even the local tool shop.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/112235493309

    Far cheaper to roll your own though. The parts are easily enough found.

    I am going to get a 32 amp socket fitted to my shed when I get around to ringing an electrician.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/112235493309

    Far cheaper to roll your own though. The parts are easily enough found.

    I am going to get a 32 amp socket fitted to my shed when I get around to ringing an electrician.

    Yes, a home made extension would be cheaper.

    As the capabilities of some welders are being limited by the circuit breaker and GPO wiring, I wonder if there is a better option for a home workshop.

    (I haven't checked so don't shoot me)

    If a "domestic" 32 amp GPO were fitted instead of an industrial one, it would be compatible with 10 and 15 (and 25) amp plugs and therefore, the welders as supplied in Australia. Not particularly robust but very convenient.

    I'd still be making an extra heavy duty extension cord.

    Jack
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapatap View Post
    We have a esab rebel on the boily ute at work, and we have been less than impressed with it. bought it to run off a genset for site work, and bought the recommended sized genset. turns out they are intolerant of any input voltage drop, after a few fried control boards, we now have to haul our 30kva genset around to use it. I was keen to get one for home, but not after the trouble we have had.
    That's rather unfortunate. I don't have any experience running welders from a generator but I have heard that some mixes don't match.

    Is it just the operation with the generator or are there other disappointments as well?

    I'm not in a particular hurry so I'll keep listening to the experience of the group before I make a purchase.

    Thanks for your input.

    Jack

  13. #28
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    I have not seen 240V sockets like that before.

    Welders and plasma cutters off generators, you need a larger generator then you might think. My cut45 when measured with a amp meter actually puts out 50 amps and when the arc stretches out i measured 135 volts. (plasma cutters are constant current like a stick welder)

    So 135 time 50 is 6750 watts output. Say an efficiency of 90%, that is an input wattage of 7500 watts. Or about 32 amps. Depending on how good the inverter design is, the really cheap ones are really crap, they only input power when the voltage is above a certain threshold as proven in my thread here https://metalworkforums.com/f309/t20...ator-waveforms

    That is why some machines run absolute crap off a generator that should run them.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    I have not seen 240V sockets like that before.

    Welders and plasma cutters off generators, you need a larger generator then you might think. My cut45 when measured with a amp meter actually puts out 50 amps and when the arc stretches out i measured 135 volts. (plasma cutters are constant current like a stick welder)

    So 135 time 50 is 6750 watts output. Say an efficiency of 90%, that is an input wattage of 7500 watts. Or about 32 amps. Depending on how good the inverter design is, the really cheap ones are really crap, they only input power when the voltage is above a certain threshold as proven in my thread here https://metalworkforums.com/f309/t20...ator-waveforms

    That is why some machines run absolute crap off a generator that should run them.
    Thanks.

    Some do but not necessarily this one. The ESAB is reasonably efficient and is power factor corrected. So far, the sample space is too small to say in general that ESAB welders don't play well with generators.

    Cause to take note, but not to panic.

    Regards
    Jack

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    I have not seen 240V sockets like that before.
    These are all domestic GPOs but (possibly) suitable for the home workshop. Certainly much more convenient than the industrial versions.

    Jack
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