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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
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    Greendale Vic. Australia
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    Default Cheapest MIG that'll do the job?

    Any tips? I just want to be able to do simple jobs, nothing heavy.
    Would I get something that'll be much better than basic ARC?
    I see Mig welders from something like $250 upwards. OK or waste of money?
    Or should I look for second hand as well?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    NSW
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    Default

    Define "do the job"

    Simple jobs will not be simple with a poor quality tool.
    Personally, I wouldn't waste my time with a sub $1k machine, if I were forced to put a dollar figure / quality tag to it.

  3. #3
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Perth
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    Default

    Yes we need you to better define your jobs, mainly sizes of job, and thicknesses of materials and how often you wish to do this

    eg , bird cage , sheep cage or cattle truck, - daily - weekly - monthly.

    I don't have a MIG but have observed number of mates and acquaintances buying and running variouscheap welders.

    As long as they are not continually used near or at their max current end of their rated range, or for too long, they usually work as stated.

    Then like anything cheap the annoying niggling things start to happened which can get bad enough to eventually rend the welder inoperative.

    Little things like clip/brackets - anything plastic go sloppy/break/slip/fall off.
    MIG wires feeders and hand pieces appear to be a weak point.
    My mates appear to be forever fixing things that break on their cheap welders.

    If th welders are continually used at the max current end of their rated range they are also less likely to survive long term.

    If you are prepared to tolerate these things and buy another in a few years then go ahead.

    One of the few welder specifications that provides some indication of long term survival are their duty cycle at max current.
    The duty cycle is usually stated as a percentage - percentage of time you can expect to weld for a given time period.
    Lets say you have a weld job that requires about 10 minutes of actual welding at the max current.
    If the welder has a 10% duty cycle then the shortest possible time you can do that job is 100 minutes.

    The cheapest welders might have a 10% duty cycle at its max current while the bigger/better ones might have 80 to 100%% duty cycle at the same current.

    Not that many DIY usually need sigh high duty cycles but what the duty cycle can indicate is the quality of the build of the welder especially the quality of the electrical/electronic components and how they will survive - not just for HD but also lighter use.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    Geelong, Australia
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    57
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    Default

    Duty cycle aside - I've had a couple of cheap MIG's before buying something half decent and they were crap. Crap wire feeders, crap controls, crap leads, crap torch. Just crap.
    Did I mention they were crap?
    A cheap mig will just frustrate the living hell out of you IME. As much as I'd like to think you can get something decent for less, I have to agree with Commander_keen's $1000 figure. My Unimig 250 cost me around $1200 when I bought it new a few years back. I've been happy with it but its definitely just reasonable and nothing special.

    If you need a welder and can't justify spending the money on a decent one then stay away from mig. Buy yourself the best inverter stick welder you can afford. Minimal running costs - just electricity and rods, and no cheap mechanical parts. Unless it dies completely it will get the job done every time you turn it on compared to a cheap mig that could have you spending 30mins or more stuffing around trying to work out why its refusing to play nicely.
    If you perhaps already have an old stick welder and have never used an inverter type you might be thinking that stick isn't an option. Before you rule it out, go and try one somewhere. So much easier to use than an old AC welder - easier to strike, much more stable arc, and a fraction of the weight if you need to carry it anywhere.

    Steve

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    NSW
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    586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    One of the few welder specifications that provides some indication of long term survival are their duty cycle at max current.
    The duty cycle is usually stated as a percentage - percentage of time you can expect to weld for a given time period.
    Lets say you have a weld job that requires about 10 minutes of actual welding at the max current.
    If the welder has a 10% duty cycle then the shortest possible time you can do that job is 100 minutes.

    The cheapest welders might have a 10% duty cycle at its max current while the bigger/better ones might have 80 to 100%% duty cycle at the same current.

    Not that many DIY usually need sigh high duty cycles but what the duty cycle can indicate is the quality of the build of the welder especially the quality of the electrical/electronic components and how they will survive - not just for HD but also lighter use.
    I'd respectfully disagree, if it were all about duty cycle we'd still run big 500KG transformer based behemoths like the lincoln idealarc, or a miller synchrowave. In reality almost all modern/new machines are IGBT MOSFET 'inverter' machines. In English, smaller, lighter, more efficient, but lower duty cycle comparative to the machines of yesteryear. So comparing machines solely on a Duty Cycle between 10% and 100% is a folly.

    Duty cycle can and does get throttled by manufacturers electronically to adjust the 'effective current' of the machine, and as such, allow a more 'user friendly' input plug to be legally fitted as it is made ready for market. In reality this is as simple as a control board referring to a voltage signal trip point coming from a thermister attached to the main heat sink. This is just effectively massaging the formula set forth in the respective australian standard to make it work in their favour. So in real world terms, its a variable that is not really indicative of the overall build quality of the machine.
    There is some truth though, that most home users will not reach the duty of the power source for most instances and ambient temps. Duty cycle is a primary consideration for things like robotics, heavy industrial use (eg Bucket rebuilds, line boring or hard facing), and in these instances guys are generally running a water cooled rig over an air cooled option. Also worth mentioning that welding torch duty will pull up the task before many of the quality machines will throw a red light and start cool-down.

    IMO Country of origin has a lot to do with it. Comparing a cheap mig mad of chinese components from a downtown Shenzhen parts bin, is vastly different to a Kemppi for example filled with top tier components by the likes of Siemens. Having peeked inside many, the difference is not just limited the components like capacitors, transistors, mosfets etc, but the boards themselves will benefit from quality builds on a potted / sealed surface, with proper mechanical Molex (or Molex style) connections used. I have seen a few cheap machines considered cot-deaths, where the most elementary things slip past QC - eg a dodgy crimp on a mains cable attachment to a input filter board. Basic elementary stuff that should not have happened, but you can guarantee that if this slips through, then the less obvious omissions during manufacture are surely there.

    I'd also urge people to consider extending the budget to a machine that has in-house electrical engineering, manufacture and re-sale. Ie a company that is end-to-end INVESTED in a quality product. These companies are few and far between, but Kemppi, Miller, Lincoln, EWM, Fronius are the few that come to mind. The rest buy the rights to re-brand and sell (mostly) chinese machines in a market (eg Australia). The likes of Unimig, WIA, CIGweld, Rossi, Bossweld, Tokentools. For guys like the latter, they trade on their 'ease of doing business' and 'after sales support' becuase once you take quality out of the equation, you've go no other selling point that to offer speedy and painless response to any warranty concerns that occur within the warranty term. Outside of that good luck even finding a spare part (particularly so on the real cheap end of town!).
    You don't see serious fabricators rocking an Ebay special. They are all running big brand name gear with great parts support and a proven service/repair network. Field service will run a Lincoln vantage, or a miller bobcat often with a suitcase wire feed for MIG work. High end panel shops love the Kempact units, and EWM is the preferred welding plant for BMW. Pretty sure I heard they even play a part make the Bushmasters for Thales.

    My current machines are Kemppi x1 (Finland) and EWM x2 (Germany), and 1x full form BOC smootharc (China). These machines are downsized from a larger number in the past.
    Kemppi is a little workhorse, it's an older one, maybe 2005 vintage, but rock solid over the time I have owned it from second hand.
    The EWM's can't be faulted - in a multiprocess and AC/DC tig configuration. These particularly stick out as having an exceptional build quality being a german machine (electrically consistent, feature packed, as well as thoughtful design).
    The Smootharc has taken a backseat to the EWM's of late, nothing wrong with them, but a basic machine without too many bells and whistles, at honest price point for what it is.

    Not everyone has a need or budget for $13K of welding plant available to them, but just be mindful that you will 100% get what you pay for. If not in lifespan, definitely in quality of the welding power it can provide, ease and ability to do a job, and do it well. Particularly so if you need to rely on the gear to pay the mortgage, maintain the production of your business, or keep machines in repair for sowing/harvest etc.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australind , WA
    Age
    58
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    1,277

    Default

    I'm an electrican and I have never Mig welded before and I asked a mate what he recommended.
    I bought a S/H Name brand, transfomer, almost as big as I could use on single phase.
    Its simple, reliable, has a decent duty cycle and is repairable.
    Its also too heavy for anyone to want to borrow it (lol) I bought it locally on gumtree. I looked fo a couple of weeks and the turn over was quite high. A decent priced machine did not last long.
    The guy selling it was a professional welder. He bought it to use around home, but it didn't get much use so he sold it.
    Lots of guys were lowballing him, looking for a bargain. I new it was a good solid machine, I paid him th easking price, $700.
    Sorted.

    Its a Cigweld 200.

    Just the path I took.
    Good luck

    Steve

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/W77aNZMD8qjydHpA8

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Location
    Greendale Vic. Australia
    Posts
    64

    Default Great response, thanks ...

    .... I guess it's back to Oxy for me then!
    (as long as I don't have to RENT cylinders).

    Cheap MIG is NG apparently, Arc is crap, I have it and I hate it.
    This is odd-jobbing amateur stuff. I used to be able to do a passable oxy job, but the cylinder rental costs killed me so I took 'em back.
    Love my mapp gas for silver soldering and brazing but.
    "do the job"? - For example, this week I need to shorten a motorbike brake pedal, weld some square tube (making a paddock roller-starter), do little occasional things like that.

    Thanks for the advice boys.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh
    Posts
    618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joolstacho View Post
    .... I guess it's back to Oxy for me then!
    (as long as I don't have to RENT cylinders).

    Cheap MIG is NG apparently, Arc is crap, I have it and I hate it.
    This is odd-jobbing amateur stuff. I used to be able to do a passable oxy job, but the cylinder rental costs killed me so I took 'em back.
    Love my mapp gas for silver soldering and brazing but.
    "do the job"? - For example, this week I need to shorten a motorbike brake pedal, weld some square tube (making a paddock roller-starter), do little occasional things like that.

    Thanks for the advice boys.
    There is nothing wrong with Arc and a lot wrong with MIG. Many years ago I went to tech and did 2 year courses in Oxy, Arc, MIG & TIG and it has over the years paid off very well. Don't know the process if you don't have the skills to use it properly. It amuses me that [people think they can buy a MIG and weld to the highest standard without being taught. Being able to glue two bits of metal together is entirely different two being able to weld it together knowing that it was done properly. I doubt anyone who is a self taught welder just starting out & trying to use MIG would go anywhere near the duty cycle of even the cheapest welder. End of rant.
    CHRIS

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joolstacho View Post
    "do the job"? - For example, this week I need to shorten a motorbike brake pedal
    Well if the job ain't done right the first time, at least it'll be the last time!


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Berowra Waters
    Posts
    149

    Default

    [QUOTE=Commander_Keen;1979164]I'd respectfully disagree, if it were all about duty cycle we'd still run big 500KG transformer based behemoths like the lincoln idealarc, or a miller synchrowave. In reality almost all modern/new machines are IGBT MOSFET 'inverter' machines. In English, smaller, lighter, more efficient, but lower duty cycle comparative to the machines of yesteryear. So comparing machines solely on a Duty Cycle between 10% and 100% is a folly.

    Duty cycle can and does get throttled by manufacturers electronically to adjust the 'effective current' of the machine, and as such, allow a more 'user friendly' input plug to be legally fitted as it is made ready for market. In reality this is as simple as a control board referring to a voltage signal trip point coming from a thermister attached to the main heat sink. This is just effectively massaging the formula set forth in the respective australian standard to make it work in their favour. So in real world terms, its a variable that is not really indicative of the overall build quality of the machine.
    There is some truth though, that most home users will not reach the duty of the power source for most instances and ambient temps. Duty cycle is a primary consideration for things like robotics, heavy industrial use (eg Bucket rebuilds, line boring or hard facing), and in these instances guys are generally running a water cooled rig over an air cooled option. Also worth mentioning that welding torch duty will pull up the task before many of the quality machines will throw a red light and start cool-down.

    IMO Country of origin has a lot to do with it. Comparing a cheap mig mad of chinese components from a downtown Shenzhen parts bin, is vastly different to a Kemppi for example filled with top tier components by the likes of Siemens. Having peeked inside many, the difference is not just limited the components like capacitors, transistors, mosfets etc, but the boards themselves will benefit from quality builds on a potted / sealed surface, with proper mechanical Molex (or Molex style) connections used. I have seen a few cheap machines considered cot-deaths, where the most elementary things slip past QC - eg a dodgy crimp on a mains cable attachment to a input filter board. Basic elementary stuff that should not have happened, but you can guarantee that if this slips through, then the less obvious omissions during manufacture are surely there.

    I'd also urge people to consider extending the budget to a machine that has in-house electrical engineering, manufacture and re-sale. Ie a company that is end-to-end INVESTED in a quality product. These companies are few and far between, but Kemppi, Miller, Lincoln, EWM, Fronius are the few that come to mind. The rest buy the rights to re-brand and sell (mostly) chinese machines in a market (eg Australia). The likes of Unimig, WIA, CIGweld, Rossi, Bossweld, Tokentools. For guys like the latter, they trade on their 'ease of doing business' and 'after sales support' becuase once you take quality out of the equation, you've go no other selling point that to offer speedy and painless response to any warranty concerns that occur within the warranty term. Outside of that good luck even finding a spare part (particularly so on the real cheap end of town!).
    You don't see serious fabricators rocking an Ebay special. They are all running big brand name gear with great parts support and a proven service/repair network. Field service will run a Lincoln vantage, or a miller bobcat often with a suitcase wire feed for MIG work. High end panel shops love the Kempact units, and EWM is the preferred welding plant for BMW. Pretty sure I heard they even play a part make the Bushmasters for Thales.

    My current machines are Kemppi x1 (Finland) and EWM x2 (Germany), and 1x full form BOC smootharc (China). These machines are downsized from a larger number in the past.
    Kemppi is a little workhorse, it's an older one, maybe 2005 vintage, but rock solid over the time I have owned it from second hand.
    The EWM's can't be faulted - in a multiprocess and AC/DC tig configuration. These particularly stick out as having an exceptional build quality being a german machine (electrically consistent, feature packed, as well as thoughtful design).
    The Smootharc has taken a backseat to the EWM's of late, nothing wrong with them, but a basic machine without too many bells and whistles, at honest price point

    I too have an EWM machine, I love it. Would you know who and where the distributor for these machines is now? I used to buy them from a guy in Rydalmere but he is no more. Silverwater Welding supply didn’t know either.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    melbourne australia
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    3,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joolstacho View Post
    .... I guess it's back to Oxy for me then!
    (as long as I don't have to RENT cylinders).
    I reckon AO is fine for odd jobs. You can cut, weld, braze, silver solder, heat treat and bend with it. 3mm thick seems to be about the practical limit for welding/brazing. Otherwise the tip size, and therefore gas consumption, goes through the roof.

    Bunnings is the go for cylinders. They take a one-off $200 deposit on each cylinder. No rental fees.
    Chris

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    melbourne australia
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    End of rant.
    I'm trying to work out what triggered the rant?
    Chris

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Gulfview Heights, Adelaide
    Posts
    83

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by riverbuilder View Post

    I too have an EWM machine, I love it. Would you know who and where the distributor for these machines is now? I used to buy them from a guy in Rydalmere but he is no more. Silverwater Welding supply didn’t know either.
    The distributor for EWM machines in Australia is BOC.

    Paul

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Lebrina
    Posts
    1,910

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joolstacho View Post
    .... I guess it's back to Oxy for me then!
    (as long as I don't have to RENT cylinders).

    Cheap MIG is NG apparently, Arc is crap, I have it and I hate it.
    This is odd-jobbing amateur stuff. I used to be able to do a passable oxy job, but the cylinder rental costs killed me so I took 'em back.
    Love my mapp gas for silver soldering and brazing but.
    "do the job"? - For example, this week I need to shorten a motorbike brake pedal, weld some square tube (making a paddock roller-starter), do little occasional things like that.

    Thanks for the advice boys.
    Cheap MIG welders are definitely a compromise and probably best avoided in the main, although you do get the occasional brand/model that offers performance way above it's price point.
    You definitely do not need to shell out for a Kemppi, Fronius or EWM and in fact I would advise you not to as an occasional home user. Lots of options in between though.
    I know that you have said that you hate arc welding, but why?
    Based upon the 2 jobs you have this week, I would rate your choice of oxy welding as suitable for the motorbike pedal shortening job, but less than ideal, bordering on unsuitable for the paddock roller frame. Don't get me wrong, I fully realise the welding capabilities of oxy acetylene, but it will cost you a motza in gas once you start working above say 3mm thicknesses, it is hot, slow and will put a lot of unnecessary heat into the job potentially leading to distortion and other undesirable outcomes.
    Could I suggest that working on the aspects that make you hate arc welding in order to make it more pleasant/successful may well be a better course of action than adding another welding machine to your arsenal? Another interesting option would be to consider TIG welding seeing as you are comfortable with the gas welding process, although TIG would suit the pedal shortening job more than the paddock roller.
    There are many valid reasons why oxy acetylene welding has become a rarely used process.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    melbourne australia
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    Could I suggest that working on the aspects that make you hate arc welding in order to make it more pleasant/successful may well be a better course of action than adding another welding machine to your arsenal?
    For me, my dislike of arc started 40 years ago with a basic transformer welder with two voltages (70 and 140V from memory). I could never get an arc to strike and the rod would stick solid to the work and eventually melt (I was a kid and had no idea).

    But Steve's post about inverter stick welders has me thinking I might give it another go. Can anyone suggest a reasonable quality model that will weld up to 10mm steel? I have a 15A socket in the workshop.

    Hope I haven't derailed your thread joolstacho.
    Chris

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