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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Malmesbury, South Africa
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3

    Default Thin walled sq tube welding for novice - 1.6mm - stick or mig (no gas)

    My hobby is woodworking, and I am happiest in the sawdust and shavings, but like most homeowners, we have to multi skill.
    Previously, I had some reasonable success making garden gates from square mild steed tubing, 2.5mm wall thickness.
    Encouraged by my success, to the untrained eye, I decided to make a storage frame for the garage, but this time used 1.6mm stock that was readily available.
    What a disaster, either burnt holes or welded the rod.
    Had a boilermaker friend come to my assistance, funnily, he didn't have a problem, and gave me a few pointers. Settings were slightly changed from 35 to 50A, the Afrox 6013 rods, 2.5mm, were ok. He suggested I needed a few years practice to become novice level
    5kg of rods later, and numerous hours with the grinder, I completed the project.
    While it is structurally sound, it is cosmetically challenged.
    He suggested that for thinner material, MIG would be easier for the novice than my 200A DC inverter.
    The problem that we have in South Africa, is the cost of the gas that is used. The monthly rental on the bottle is high, and a minimum period of 12 months, which for rare occasional use, is not good.
    There is a market for those bottles that "fell off the back of a lorry", but they bypass the routine testing also.

    Would the wire fed welder without gas, be better on such thin material, or should I just buy plenty of rods and keep practicing?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    Hi Saftaff,
    First up let me welcome you as a new member and give you the run down on how to best to use and navigate the forum.

    Goto the FORUM box in the top left hand cnr of the page and click the down arrow. This will bring up a pull down menu that has Forum Home at the top

    Then click Forum Home which will present a scroll down page.

    Our rules,the Terms of Service are right at the top ,please read them.

    Below that all down the scrolled page are all the various areas and sub forums that make up our MetalWork forums.As well as welding there is plenty to see and get interested in.

    As a new welder there's a lot in picking up the craft. To answer the last query first, my opinion is that that the gasless so called migs are not suitable for thin wall.Good for heavier wall metal but not so good for 1.6mm thickness.

    On 1.6mmm thickness you will be back in the same boat with a gasless mig- a constant dab and grind.

    The yanks have a saying" grinder and paint, make me the welder I ain't." I recommend against gasless mig in this instance.

    Age, fitness and eyesight are big factors and as an older welder myself I can offer some work arounds that will assist you and compensate for some of those factors.

    Your welding machine, its amperage range and how it is powered are other variables. DC output power (at the electrode side) is better- for thin wall work than power AC .

    Inverter machine is great if you have one.They run very well ( stable arc) on lower amperage.

    Working position is important. Working (welding ) on the floor is for young fellers, working at bench level is much better for our age group.
    For comfort avoiding fatigue, accuracy and visual focal length, bench work is best for us.

    Suffice to say using light thin tube as a starting point is a most difficult way of learning welding.

    The blokes here can give the quick online assistance and get you the basics but you are right ,there are lots of electrodes still to be burnt to bring you up to a skill level to satisfy your needs.

    I'll be back in a while to add more to this as she who must be obeyed is calling.

    Again, welcome to our MetalWorking Forums

    Grahame

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,651

    Default

    If you can get some 1.6mm rods give those a try. Before I got a decent MIG I found them a bit easier to use than 2.5mm ones on thinner tube.

    Steve

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    149

    Default

    ...."He suggested I needed a few years practice to become novice level"

    Harsh!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil317 View Post
    ...."He suggested I needed a few years practice to become novice level"

    Harsh!
    Not at all. SafTaff's boilermaker friend was very likely just teasing him as happens in interactions between good mates.
    It is just a tradies humor. We can say the most awful things to each other but rarely mean it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    SafTaff,

    It appears you can weld to a degree already but need a knowledge those finer points required.
    I suggest the following.

    Obtain the 1.6mm or perhaps 2.00 electrodes as suggested.I had a quick google last night and they have 2.00mm but could not see any 1.6mm.
    For those who have not used them1.6mm especially and 2.00mm are skinny and wobble if you start with a full electrode. The arc footprint is VERY much smaller and you can have difficulty in covering the line of the joint.

    Its OK to cheat. Cut the electrode in half with a pair of side cutters and bare 20mm of the end to provide earthing in the electrode holder. With 50% of the length gone so goes the wobble .

    Next check or change the arc length.

    Arc length is said to be the dimension from the yet unburnt end of the electrode to the work surface. For heavier material 3mm and up, it has nominal length being of that of the electrde core diameter. It is held shorter than that for thinwall materials.

    Too long of an arc length allows the arc to overheat heat the metal thickness more than a short arc length does and a hole occurs.

    The setting of the arc length is a trade off between the electrode sticking to the metal surface or if too set too long,just burning through. The happy medium is between the two, to achieve fusing/welding to the base metal .

    In the original post, notice that the amps were changed from 35 to 50. It's London to a brick that the amps were increased as the arc had been shortened and needed more oomph to keep the arc burning.

    At the same time ,the inclination electrode angle to the work should be increased.That is ,the drag angle of normally 10° off perpendicular. For light metal lay it over to 30° off perpendicular.Travel speed must be higher than was normal for 2.5 thickness.

    Try this with the 2.5mm electrodes on some scrap for starters and see how you go.

    I believe your results will improve. If they do I would chase up the smaller electrodes. Keep in touch and please give us some feedback.

    Grahame

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    gold coast
    Posts
    303

    Default

    For starters--I'm no welder!

    I was trying to make a roof rack for a landrover 40 years ago out of (then) 1 inch X 1/16" steel RHS.
    Like you, I would have had better success swimming from Oz to South Africa!

    A welder mate at the time taught me this "trick".

    (1) Use a 'thin' rod. I'd guess a 2.0 in todays measurements.
    (2)Increase the amps (no idea what, he just set my home welder to "max")
    (3)Lock the rod into the handset and then bend it at the fixing point until its angle is 30 degrees to the axis of the handset.
    This means when applying the tip to the work, the rod is about 30 degrees to the work face. yes almost running parallel to the work.
    Now strike an arc and draw the rod quickly towards yourself, sliding the rod on the surface of the work.
    if you have the formulae right you will get a perfect weld
    The length of the arc is maintained by the the thickness of the 'flux' on the outside of the rod.
    It takes a little bit of adjusting, but on corner welds, joining thin square tube at right angles, it works a treat.

    Good luck!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Malmesbury, South Africa
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Thanks guys, I think I have enough to go on for now.
    I started by improving the lighting and ergonomics around the work area, as Grahame suggested.
    Crawling around the garage floor in poor lighting is not good for old timers. Getting down there is not a problem, but getting back up cannot be achieved without making "old people noises".
    Another thing I am considering is a pair of spectacles just for welding distance. The multifocals lenses are not so good when used with a helmet.
    I will get to practicing next week, busy making Xmas presents at the moment.
    Many thanks for the advice, really appreciated

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
    Age
    72
    Posts
    3,102

    Default

    One last point, if I may:
    DON'T try to make welding 'beads' like you would on thicker steel. Invariably, the steel ahead of your puddle gets too hot and you will melt a hole sooner or later - the later the bigger!
    On some scrap, find out how far you can go before the inevitable hole appears. And get used to the relatively fast speed you need to travel at.
    While you are doing that, keep a regular eye on the underside of the weld. If you end up going too fast, you will not have much or any penetration, meaning you can trust the weld. As a beginner, you should actually do that with any thickness material.
    Once you have the travel speed for good penetration, make your beads just a little shorter than the distance to the hole. On 1.6mm steel, that might be just 6mm. Then jump that distance and make your next bead of the same length. Keep doing that to the end you the joint. Then come back to the start and fill the gaps, after a quick swipe with the chipping hammer. This allows the leading end of the beads to cool off. Eventually you will get good at lead-ins and recommencements and your welds will be attractive.
    For lead-in techniques, watch some of Jodie's videos on 'welding tips and tricks' on YouTube.
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    395

    Default

    Can you see what your doing?
    I just about gave up on Welding a few years back.
    I realised I couldn’t see what I was doing.
    So for oxy I’d take off my multifocal specs and get so close that my beard singed.
    For Arc ,Tig and mig bought a new Lincoln helmet.
    This had a larger window so I could keep the specs on.
    Was ok for a while but then lost it again.
    Had my cataracts done and had my focal length set to bench height.
    Problem solved, no specs just goggles or helmet.
    H.
    Jimcracks for the rich and/or wealthy. (aka GKB '88)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Malmesbury, South Africa
    Age
    75
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    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by clear out View Post
    Can you see what your doing?
    I just about gave up on Welding a few years back.
    I realised I couldn’t see what I was doing.
    So for oxy I’d take off my multifocal specs and get so close that my beard singed.
    For Arc ,Tig and mig bought a new Lincoln helmet.
    This had a larger window so I could keep the specs on.
    Was ok for a while but then lost it again.
    Had my cataracts done and had my focal length set to bench height.
    Problem solved, no specs just goggles or helmet.
    H.
    Thanks for the comment, vision is a big part of the problem.
    Until I had my cataracts done, I didn't need specs for the workshop / garage. Long distance was a problem, and to a lesser degree, very fine work.
    Now I can see distance without specs, but need to wear them in the garage, and for reading.
    Trying to line up the bottom part of a multifocal lens with a visor is not easy.
    A reversal could be costly, but I will discuss it with the eye specialist, have an appointment tomorrow.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    pakistan
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1

    Default best solution

    Quote Originally Posted by clear out View Post
    Can you see what your doing?
    I just about gave up on Welding a few years back.
    I realised I couldn’t see what I was doing.
    So for oxy I’d take off my multifocal specs and get so close that my beard singed.
    For Arc ,Tig and mig bought a new Lincoln helmet.
    This had a larger window so I could keep the specs on.
    Was ok for a while but then lost it again.
    Had my cataracts done and had my focal length set to bench height.
    Problem solved, no specs just goggles or helmet.
    H.
    you have got best solution i liked it.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Location
    Greendale Vic. Australia
    Posts
    64

    Default

    Any more tips, particularly welding thin stuff, would be welcome.
    I'm learning with my 2 day old Bossweld 180. I can do a passable weld on 3mm steel strip using a 2.6mm electrode. This seems pretty easy.
    This welder looks like a toy, but for the price I reckon it's pretty good, it makes my old transformer welder into a boat anchor.
    BUT!
    I've been trying and trying everything to weld 1" square tubing (thin walled), and whatever electrode and amperage I use, I get a short weld then a hole.
    Yes I know it's ME ! -i have found that holding the electrode on more of an angle, (something like 45 deg) helps, and I know that I probably need to move faster, the slightest hesitation and there's a hole.
    I've tried lower amps, and I'll keep trying, but it seems harder to strike an arc with the lower Amps.
    A mate tells me not to try to do continuous weld 'lines', but to do something more like tacking, just very short welds, say 7mm at a time, to avoid excess heat building up, then going over each line filling in between the tacks.
    Sounds painful though eh?
    Any thoughts? There's good info in this thread, thanks to all.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Bendigo
    Age
    60
    Posts
    419

    Default

    What electrodes are you using on the thin wall tube?

    Have you tried 1.6mm rods ?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Location
    Greendale Vic. Australia
    Posts
    64

    Default

    The smallest I have is 2mm, I think you're right I should get some 1.6mm rods.

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