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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2020
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    Willowbank QLD
    Posts
    516

    Default Arc or gassless mig

    Hello readers

    I have a tendency to overthink things which can then lead to limited progress. This has been the case with getting a welder and learning to use it.
    So in an effort to combat that I thought I should learn to walk and seriously think about what I will be welding. I have come to the conclusion that as a beginner it will be limited to general home welding such as a gate, shade structure, maybe a steel work bench and such.

    Therefore the two economical options appear to be an Arc welder or a gassless mig.

    Arc seems old fashioned and therefore mig is the way to go. But as I have aged I have become to realize that older technology can be highly suited to home use.

    So if you were after an economical welder for general duties that will be only used occasionally which way would you go and why?

    Steve

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
    Age
    59
    Posts
    6,540

    Default

    I'd go stick. Gasless MIG was a bit of a disappointment to me, as there was more spatter than I wanted to see. Bunnings and others 'sell' gas cylinders though, so gased MIG is possible without ongoing rental costs. The other nice thing about modern inverter supplies for stick is that they can be used for DC TIG if you buy the extra bits.

    Michael

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,779

    Default

    Totally agree with Michael.

    Until recently, in my shed I had a choice of gasless mig or an old AC arc welder.

    Being home use i could never justify the gas for mig, however I too was disappointed with gasless mig for the same reasons Michael outlined.

    However, about a year ago I bought a modern, reasonable quality DC inverter arc welder and I love it! So much easier and very forgiving.

    I have successfully welded 0.8mm stainless sheet with 1.6mm stainless rods with a bit of care.

    My gasless mig has spiders living in it!

    $360 bought me a great welder from a family owned company.

    Cheers,

    Simon

    Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,105

    Default

    If you are going to buy the cheapest mig you can get your hands on and run gasless wire through it don't bother as you will have nothing but problems.

    Gasless can work really well but you need to run it through a decent welder.

    I'd look into buying a low cost DC Inverter arc welder. Can buy one for under $200

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Tasmania
    Age
    53
    Posts
    149

    Default

    We all know opinions are like backsides.....so I have my own as well

    Forget the stick and gasless and just invest in a mig with gas........easy to use and you will be happy with the results

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,651

    Default Arc or gassless mig

    Definitely stick. I suffered through 2 cheap MIGs before giving up and buying a decent one. Cheap MIGs suck!
    For occasional use having a decent MIG is pointless and for the odd bit of welding here and there a stick welder basically has no running costs. A $30 box of electrodes will likely last you many years.
    Spend $150-$200 on a reasonable welding helmet and you’ll find it much easier to learn too.

    Steve

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by danshell View Post
    We all know opinions are like backsides.....so I have my own as well

    Forget the stick and gasless and just invest in a mig with gas........easy to use and you will be happy with the results
    Gas will end up being too expensive for a welder that is only used occasionally.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Tasmania
    Age
    53
    Posts
    149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Com_VC View Post
    Gas will end up being too expensive for a welder that is only used occasionally.
    Possibly, but for me its like anything in life thats worth while......after the initial investment (buying the bottle) IMHO he will long forget the cost and enjoy the benefits of using a mig with gas. Personally I couldn't think of anything worse than using a stick or gasless even for the odd occasional use.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    586

    Default

    If you want to stick metal together- either will work.
    If you want it to look good early on in the learning curve, then get a mig and run a solid wire with gas.
    Stick welding can get some very nice results, but it takes a lot of practice.

    I wouldn't recommend buying a 'cheap' machine, get the best you can afford. It will pay for itself in better arc characteristics, safety, and end results.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    55

    Default Also, TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    .....The other nice thing about modern inverter supplies for stick is that they can be used for DC TIG if you buy the extra bits.
    Michael
    And, the nice thing about a Tig inverter (something that I'm really growing to enjoy using), is that they can be used for stick welding.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Southern Flinders Ranges
    Posts
    1,536

    Default

    Get a MIG, buy one that has capacity to run both gas and flux core and can run a 5kg spool minimum. Easier to get good results earlier in the learning curve consumables are cheaper in larger rolls. Stick electrodes aren’t cheap, and require care in storage if you aren’t going to turn them over frequently. A MIG also allows you to weld thinner material without leaving gaping great holes in it. A 1.6mm wall fence post is relatively easy to weld to with a MIG, not so much with a stick welder.

    A slight off topic, but kind of related to decision making processes on using gas...
    I ran my first MIG on a diet of flux core for about 5 years because ‘gas was expensive’. Then I did some research and found out gas wasn’t actually all that expensive, more a matter of perception.
    Welding is an industrial process and as such has a price attached. People frequently get hung up about the cost of a rental bottle, which is around $200/yr for a D bottle. My take on cylinder rental, it’s like a supply charge for water, natural gas and electricity or the infrastructure charge for sewer, both BOC and SupaGas offer small cylinders on low turnover annual rental deals for the home gamers that work out to about the equivalent cost of a small takeaway coffee a week ( my oxy set up is on this plan from SupaGas, because I don’t turn them over very often). Yes Bunnings offer gas ‘rent free’ but you have several hundred dollars of cash tied up in a deposit, and there is every likelihood that you may not be able to recover it should they change suppliers or dispense with the product completely as has happened with a couple of other tool store ‘rent free’ cylinder exchange products.
    The other consideration around using gas is the cost of consumables, small home gamer rolls of flux core are poisonously expensive if you compare them to the cost of regular wire. 5kg of ER70 wire is about $30, a 900gm roll of flux core is around $18. If you go through 5kg of wire a year, half your gas rental is paid for.
    Welding, and most metal working in general for that matter, is a case of you have to pay to play, the amount you are prepared to pay, will to some extent determine the results you get. A cheap flux core mig will join metal together, but it won’t do it anywhere near as elegantly as a machine capable of running gas which will cost a bit more.

    Back to scheduled programming

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Tasmania
    Age
    53
    Posts
    149

    Default

    Sorry to be a little off topic but I havent paid for gas bottle rental for several years now.

    Quite a few suppliers allow you to buy them outright or in bunnings case pay a refundable deposit when or if you ever return the bottle.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    586

    Default

    People conveniently dismiss the importance of the deposit. No one considers the opportunity cost of what that money could go towards, or what that deposit could become (inventory, and subsequent revenue).
    Gee, just having a facebook post saying '$50 bucks for an odd welding job' would net a profit on gas costs after all was said and done... or at least keep the beer fridge stocked.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Willowbank QLD
    Posts
    516

    Default

    Thanks for all of the feedback so far. I have no doubt that a Mig with bottle would give a better weld than the other two. Like most of you I have a shed that is fixed dimensions. Yes I could build a bigger shed and than have more space, but then I would soon fill that, funds permitting.

    The other thing is we all have our skill sets. I think it would take me quite a bit of welding before I would be happy with the look and structural interrogatory of my welds that I fully trust them. Therefore for jobs that I really don't want to fail I know a few people that are not just welders but true craftsman.

    I am leaning towards an inverter arc welder. I also like the idea of a Tig attachment down the track. If it works out that I don't have the ability to do Tig welds that I am happy with I still have the arc welder. If by some miracle I master Tig I can get a good Tig welder.

    Recommendations of arc/tig welders would be appreciated. I only have single phase but could put a 20 amp plug in if necessary.

    Steve

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,779

    Default

    After some forum members reccomended Magnum Welders I bought a 200A arc/Tig inverter welder from them. At $360 (from memory) it's not the best or the cheapest but I have been very happy with it. I even took it apart and did a review on it See here:https://metalworkforums.com/f160/t20...agnum+inverter

    Cheers,

    Simon
    Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.

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