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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
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    bunbury
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    Default Which electrode for Universal Beam?

    Hello all
    I am building a lean-to on the machinery shed. It will measure 10m x 5m. Skillion roof - 4.8 m on the "high" side, 3.6m on the "low"side.
    I got hold of some 200UB25 at a clearing sale, so I'll be using that for the columns as well as the rafters.
    The columns will be concreted in the ground like a fencepost - holes 1200mm deep x 600mm diameter.
    The rafters I was going to mitre cut (at the right angle) and weld straight to the columns - no bolts or haunch plates to bother about.

    Now, what rods would be best? WIA 12p's are my "go to" rods for most farm applications but doing a google search - mostly on U.S. forums and sites - they say 6010 for a root weld and 7018 over the top of that.
    Is this correct? Sounds a bit over the top. I mean it is not welding high tensile or pressure vessels. It is only mild steel, and not particularly thick - 7.8mm flange thickness and 5.8mm web thickness.

    Regards
    Graeme

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
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    Default

    I've gone down that track of listening to US welding information. I got some 6010 rods and have been using lots of 7016 and 7018 which I like.
    However: the American formulations of the electrode coverings are difficult to get here. The "6010 Standard" is no such thing.... every country or welding jurisdiction has developed their own it seems. The 6010s I got (Lincoln Electric - you would think they were Amercian, but they were made in Europe by Linde) behaved totally differently to anything I've seen on YouTube. I certainly would not consider them for root passes!
    I would suggest 6012 or 6013 for root passes in Australia and 7016 for cover passes. But then again, at welding school last year, my class was taught to use 7016 as the root pass and 6013 for all filler passes. I have a strong suspicion that was a misinterpretation of some old wisdom by my welding instructor....
    We have welding experts here on the forum and would like to hear what they have to say. I suspect 6012/3 is probably perfectly alright - as long as they are not wet (hydrogen embrittlement)....
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    N.W.Tasmania
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    Default

    I will watch with interest the ongoing commentary on this topic. I have pretty well zero expertise in welding, but am most surprised by Joes statements about standards for welding rods not being universal in nature. Although the Lincoln Electric rods may have been made by Linde in Europe, I would have expected them to be made to a spec which I would have thought Lincoln would have given them and fully expected Linde to comply with. I find it amazing that these standards are so loose, it just doesn't make sense to me that one 6010 electrode behaves quite differently to someone else's 6010, but like I said, I know very little about welding.
    I know that with steel alloys, there can be minor differences between one manufacturers version of say 4140 and that same designated alloy from another manufacturer, and indeed sometimes a different batch from the same manufacturer because sometimes batches might be optimised for a particular application, and very small changes can be made to improve one aspect while leaving most characteristics of the two batches for all intents and purposes identical, but the differences Joe described sounded to me to be far more profound than the above example.
    Last edited by Ropetangler; 1st Jul 2020 at 01:18 PM. Reason: spelling- ov to of.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Adelaide
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    378

    Default

    Id just use a general purpose rod like a 6012 or 13 for the lot.. (actually I lie.. I hate stick welding, Id put a roll of Flux core in the mig )

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Near Bendigo, Victoria, AUS
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    Default

    It seems the standards for welding rods are VERY variable between manufacturers and countries.
    The coding "E6011" for example is an American standard by the AWS and is essentially a standard for final weld strength and a vague indication for flux and use - and of no relevance to Europe or Australia or anywhere else in the world, unless they use the AWS classifications by default.
    Europe uses the ISO 2560 standard, which is much more descriptive. Here is a comparison of the two major standards:
    https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/electr...sification.htm
    In Australia, we seem to use both of these as well as the Australian Standard AS/NZS 4855. That's why it's confusing....
    Then there are proprietary formulations which go under names like "Ferrocraft 16" and list compliance with multiple standard and their deviation from them, particularly relating to flux composition....
    Cheers, Joe
    retired - less energy, more time to contemplate projects and more shed time....

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    NSW
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    Default

    Despite belief to the contrary, E6010, E6013, E7016 all are an electrode classification. This is stipulated by the American Welding Society (AWS). There is also an Australian standard as well... but AWS is more commonly known.
    There is some info available from Lincoln to support this. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/process-and-theory/Pages/aws-certificate-detail.aspx


    EG for E6013:

    E is electrode
    60 is the tensile strength of the weld metal deposit in psi (in 1,000psi- ie 60,000psi)
    1 stands for 'all positions' (weld positions, that is- eg vertical down, overhead, etc)- keep this "out of position" performance in mind if you intend to be welding in-situ.
    3 relates to the flux composition - for 3 it is a potassium flux, fast freeze for use with AC or DC current.

    MMAW by nature has higher Hydrogen levels in the weld metal than other processes. Usually the spec will also give a H2 concentration per 100g weld metal- higher the H2, the higher the likelihood of hydrogen cracking in the weld, defects and resulting failure of the weldment.
    Probably worth noting this AWS classification relates to the weld deposit. Flux composition can be varied between manufacturers, which also affects the weldment (and in some cases adds to the metallurgy of the weld, like an iron powder rod), but flux composition is likely a source of appeal to a welder when using the rod, and is one of the more tactile ways which an operator will rate an electrode for a task.



    Formal response to OP is to consult a structural or mechanical engineer for advice. You've sort of got a lot to lose if the weld fails for one reason or another and you are inside the structure. Or worse, it fails and damages your workshop equipment stored within. Can't have that now, can we?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    near Rockhampton
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    Default

    I would use 4mm 6012, 6013 or 7014 rods.
    Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Lebrina
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    Universal beams are not anything special material wise and any 6010, 6011, 6012, 6013 or 7014 electrode would suffice. Having said that, there is a reason that WIA 16TC's (7016) have attracted a cult following for site maintenance and repair.
    A lot will depend on your skill level and welder type. If you are restricted to an AC buzz box, then 6010 and most 7016's are out. If you are running a DC power source then drop 6011's off your list as 6010's are generally superior in appeal. If your welder will run them at a decent duty cycle, then 4mm will do the job quicker, although for positional work they will be harder to control than 3.25mm. 6012's (12P's) aren't ideal for vertical up, so I'd cut them out most probably.
    I would give serious thought to fabricating the columns and beams, then bolting them together as welding beam to column while swinging in the breeze could be somewhat challenging in practice.
    Bottom line is that you can choose whatever electrode you like and are competent with and it will do the job. If it were me, I'd grab a WIA 16TC, second choice would be WIA 13S or equivalent and a very distant third would be a 6010.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    s.w. sydney
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    Default

    hi, 6011-6013 are imo general pose rods, and arn,t used in structural workshops for structural welding, ferrocraft 61 are e7018, and are structural rods. this is what i would use without question.
    3.2 are a good size for your job. and will run on any welder, 2.5kg packs are available,

    if you put the posts in the ground, they will rust,not much work to put a plate on the bottom of the posts and chemset studs into the concrete.

  10. #10
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    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by mick21 View Post
    hi, 6011-6013 are imo general pose rods, and arn,t used in structural workshops for structural welding, ferrocraft 61 are e7018, and are structural rods. this is what i would use without question.
    3.2 are a good size for your job. and will run on any welder, 2.5kg packs are available,

    if you put the posts in the ground, they will rust,not much work to put a plate on the bottom of the posts and chemset studs into the concrete.
    6010-6013 electrodes easily exceed the material specifications of Universal Beams and other common structural steel sections and there is no reason not to use them. Many oil and gas pipelines are welded together with 6010 electrodes in fact.
    Assuming the UB is rolled from material conforming to AS/NZS3679.1-300 then it will have specifications of around the following numbers. Yield 320 MPa, Tensile 440 MPa and elongation 22%. WIA list the following specifications for their 12P electrode. Yield 450 MPa, Tensile 500 MPa and elongation 26%. Their 13S electrodes deliver the same performance, the 16TC Low Hydrogen exceeds their performance, delivering Yield of 460 MPa, Tensile 560 MPa and elongation 28%. Not much in it is there unless you are chasing sub zero impact figures. The unloved (in Australian circles) 6010 Lincoln Fleetweld 5P delivers Yield 420-475 MPa, Tensile 515-570 MPa and elongation of 25-31%. It doesn't do too badly in the low temperature impact stakes either.
    Based on this, I'll happily walk under a beam welded with any of the electrodes mentioned safe in the knowledge that the beam will fail before the weld.
    I definitely agree on using base plates and chemset anchors as it will make erection and assembly so much easier and even allows you to adjust column heights to get everything perfect.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
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    5,362

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by graeme1000 View Post
    I got hold of some 200UB25 at a clearing sale, so I'll be using that for the columns as well as the rafters.
    The electrodes are fine , what about the steel?

    Who made that steel and the standards it was made to, may be a significant factor to the discussion. About a decade ago there was a lot of imported steel that failed Australian inspection on tensile yield tests.

    Yes I know it is just a shed,but then that's all I know.I have no idea of any loading that will or could be placed on it.

    The following is certainly worth consideration. Its a scant 84 pages but not too bad to get through.

    https://www.materialsaustralia.com.a...ds%20Final.pdf


    Grahame

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    NSW
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    264

    Default

    I'm sure we all appreciate a good steel erection. In our sheds or otherwise.

    Irrespective of the metallurgical specs of the rod, a cold, cocky-poop weld will be more of a liability than a help. So a lot is to be said for the welder above and beyond the rod. I've seen some shockers weldeded (not a typo) by chippies which would make your toes curl. Stick to the 'skil' saw good buddy...

    Don't have to look too far (Vic councils and collapsing road signs) before you see what magnitude fowl-ups can occur where out of trade jobs can end up.

  13. #13
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    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    I'm sure we all appreciate a good steel erection. In our sheds or otherwise.

    Irrespective of the metallurgical specs of the rod, a cold, cocky-poop weld will be more of a liability than a help. So a lot is to be said for the welder above and beyond the rod. I've seen some shockers weldeded (not a typo) by chippies which would make your toes curl. Stick to the 'skil' saw good buddy...

    Don't have to look too far (Vic councils and collapsing road signs) before you see what magnitude fowl-ups can occur where out of trade jobs can end up.
    Funny you should mention that. At this very moment, I am working on some doors to cover a hydrant and sprinkler booster that has been cut into a brick wall in the side of an old textile factory. The plumber that installed the booster and plumbing has also installed the lintel and posts to support it. I don't know where the slag inclusions start and the weld metal finishes. This is not a small brick wall either, we are talking over 20M high.

  14. #14
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    May 2020
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    s.w. sydney
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Robbers View Post
    Many oil and gas pipelines are welded together with 6010 electrodes in fact.
    yes 6010 for root run, not fill.
    those numbers are nice, i,m relaying what happens in a workshop/site environment and that if i was welding up a beam with g.p. rods, then there would be an issue, most probably cut out weld and redo. and i might loss a job because i can,t be trusted to do a proper job.
    low hydrogen rods also penetrate more than g.p. rods

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mick21 View Post
    yes 6010 for root run, not fill.
    those numbers are nice, i,m relaying what happens in a workshop/site environment and that if i was welding up a beam with g.p. rods, then there would be an issue, most probably cut out weld and redo. and i might loss a job because i can,t be trusted to do a proper job.
    low hydrogen rods also penetrate more than g.p. rods
    Nope, full 6010 welds, run vertical down as stringer beads on many pipelines, the Americans do it all the time. The Cellulose flux on the 6010 really lends itself to this type of work as there in next to no slag left and therefore slag inclusions are less likely and this combined with their ability to penetrate like nothing else leads to a sound, X ray quality weld.
    Under AS1554, 6010, 6011, 6012 and 6013 electrodes all meet the requirements for structural welds on everything up to and including Grade 300 steel.
    While they have improved dramatically, Low Hydro's are still more difficult to run well for many people and they will get better results by using electrodes that they are familiar with, provided that electrode can meet the requirements of the job, which these can, as has been demonstrated.
    I would probably use 16TC or Kobe LB 52's myself as I like the way they run, but standard rutile electrodes are more than adequate for the task.

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