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  1. #1
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    Dec 2019
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    Australia
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    Default Cigweld Weldskill 185

    Hi all first post

    I have been hobby welding on and off for over 25yrs and have just picked up a Cigweld weldskill 185 https://sydneytools.com.au/product/c...nverter-welder

    I have encountered a frustrating issue where as when in stick mode it is near impossible to strike an arc, I am using Satincraft 6013 Rod's
    Clean earth point and fresh ground weld area 2.5mm rod set at 80 amps and near impossible to get going new rods even touch bar rod tip to surface without really scratching it there is no arc up, once i manage to get it going it lays down a nice weld but even trying to restart mid weld is a nightmare. welder is brand new all setting are correct electrode +, my smaller Super cheap inverter 140amp arcs instantly with same scenario even when i cant get rod going mid weld ( slight flux protruding past inner rod ) I can put that rod in other welder and it fires up no problem.

    Through browsing some other posts i have seen mention of Transarc units having dud circuit boards out of the box Im wondering if I have a dud

    The manual makes mention of the following
    VRD (voltage reduction device) is a hazard reducing device designed to reduce electric shock hazards presenton the output of welding power source when operating in STICK (MMAW) mode. Note that the presence ofVRD should not be used as a substitute for the use of appropriate safety practices as indicated in Section Oneof this manual.

    Could this be faulty ?

    Any input greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
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    59
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    Default

    I have a VRD on my Miller machine, and it was a pain to get used to. I did think at one stage of even turning it off. I learnt on a transformer machine where you poked the electrode at the work and away it would go. Eventually talking to others who had similar machines, I discovered that a different technique was used to start the arc. The circuitry is quite sophisticated and a poke won't do it - it will ignore that as an accidental strike. The way to do it as it was explained to me was to 'strike a match' - ie drag the electrode along as if you were striking a match and that should start the arc. Find some plate and practice...

    Michael

  3. #3
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    Aug 2008
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    Adelaide
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    Default

    Following on from what Michael posted, VRD equipped machines can also make it harder to restrike a partly used rod. Cleaning up the end of the rod with an old file helps in this regard.

  4. #4
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    Dec 2019
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    Australia
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    I have a VRD on my Miller machine, and it was a pain to get used to. I did think at one stage of even turning it off. I learnt on a transformer machine where you poked the electrode at the work and away it would go. Eventually talking to others who had similar machines, I discovered that a different technique was used to start the arc. The circuitry is quite sophisticated and a poke won't do it - it will ignore that as an accidental strike. The way to do it as it was explained to me was to 'strike a match' - ie drag the electrode along as if you were striking a match and that should start the arc. Find some plate and practice...

    Michael
    Thanks for reply

    What you describe does sound plausible (good old mythbusters) quote

    But how do you place a tack weld ( EG Tacking a nut onto radius of RHS ) without going into some kind of angry fit ( if only the wife seen me How one bloody nut could bring a grown man to his knees LOL) I could have launched the bloody thing into the pool,

    I don't believe there is any way or turning it off, even holding bare tip to metal didn't start the arc and It was hit and miss to try and strike away from start and long arc across to start point, dragging electrode honestly didn't seem to make much difference, I had tried ringing there support line on hold for 20 mins untill i guess they decided it was home time and line just dropped out. Ahh gotta love christmas

  5. #5
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    Oct 2011
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    Norwood-ish, Adelaide
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavin Newman View Post
    ...Cleaning up the end of the rod with an old file helps in this regard.
    I just tap the end of the electrode on the concrete floor.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbr77 View Post
    ...But how do you place a tack weld ...
    It's not much help I know but once you have the hang of starting an arc, you will be able to work out tacking. It is a pain, but it is also what you have to work with.

    Michael

  6. #6
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    Dec 2019
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    Australia
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    Default

    Thanks to all for advise I actually returned machine and upgraded to the cigweld 185 ultra a fair amount dearer and still a bit tedious to tack with but I must admit with the auto set feature it's got me laying welds to a quality I've never been able too, I was very happy when I had about a 6inch length of slag curl for the heavens lol
    Thanks again
    Last edited by Grahame Collins; 28th Dec 2019 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Turn of phrase inappropriate for a family type forum

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mackay North Qld
    Posts
    6,446

    Default

    Hi rbr77,
    First up welcome to the forum.

    You might try this. When you need a non fail arc strike -as in first time and every time - an arc striking plate might possibly be able to solve your problem or at least minimise it.

    A red hot electrode end with the striking end gun barreled- -ie flux proud and wire core down inside the counter sink, is far easier to strike than a cold electrode. I am not a fan of "scrape the flux from the rod and expect it to fire" because of the following:
    The arc, if it initates has no protection from atmospheric oxidisation so the beginning of the bead or tack will affected by oxidisation because if there is no flux cover to transform into a gaseous sheild during the solid to liquid phase of the weld, a time when it is most vulnerable to the effects of oxidisation.

    Multiple arc striking of the unfluxed electrode end all over the job surface does nothing to promote the decent appearance of a job.

    Indeed arc strikes over certain classes of work are a cause of failure and are not acceptable.
    Otherwise stray arc strikes and oxidisation of the beginning of a tack or bead just looks plain shoddy and should not be considered good practice by any welder professional or amateur.

    A tiny disclaimer here.: I have never owned a VRD machine and can't swear to the efficacy of the above process using a VRD equipped machine as I have never tried it. NON VRD units sure! I have used it hundreds of times with NON VRD units and written about it here in this forum. Lots of members have reported success with it. It is just a matter of a piece of scrap plate near the desired area and running a small bead until the electrode end id red hot.before the electrode end becomes cold ,whip it over the the desired arc strike area and begin as normal.

    The key is to do this immediately after breaking the arc of the scrap plate and restrike immediately where you want the new weld bead/tack.

    Hope this works for you

    Grahame

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Adelaide
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    68
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    Default

    Grahame

    VRD equipped machines are indeed harder to re-strike, it's the price paid for the safety factor I suppose. Austarc 16TC rods are especially hard to restart in my experience due to the glassy nature of the flux, which is why I use a file to get down to bare metal in the rod - but I am careful not to strip flux back from there so I effectively end up with a "new" rod which restricts properly.

    I have a Fronius 1500TP with VRD and one without - the difference is quite distinct.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Australia
    Age
    46
    Posts
    7

    Default RE Arc strike

    I did try Grahame's suggestion with little success VRD is indeed a pain to get use to but quality of weld i am getting far out ways the the small negative as I don't have a true weld table to work from I tend to set up an old door on saw horses with a fiber cement sheet on top for obvious reasons and work from a sitting position therefore i have used Michael's suggestion of just a quick scrape on concrete floor to expose bare rod tip the smallest exposure is all that is needed and away i go again if I have a job with a lot of tacks involved i wont rule out using old machine for tack only part of the job.
    As stated previously I am only a amateur regarding amount of years I have welded but do intend to be doing a fair amount of welding in future for different garage projects etc.
    Thanks again all


    Quote Originally Posted by Gavin Newman View Post
    Grahame

    VRD equipped machines are indeed harder to re-strike, it's the price paid for the safety factor I suppose. Austarc 16TC rods are especially hard to restart in my experience due to the glassy nature of the flux, which is why I use a file to get down to bare metal in the rod - but I am careful not to strip flux back from there so I effectively end up with a "new" rod which restricts properly.

    I have a Fronius 1500TP with VRD and one without - the difference is quite distinct.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    586

    Default

    VRD stands for Voltage Reduction Device.
    The VRD reduces the OCV (Open circuit voltage) when not welding- and provides a level of safety to prevent the welder inadvertently becoming part of the welding circuit (zapping noises, eyeballs popping, death, destruction etc). Many electrodes require a minimum OCV to strike- so this is likely where your issue is arising. Others are right about the knack to it... but I like the VRD, and all of my stick welders have it.

    The way it's going these days, the standard for welding equipment requires a VRD to be fitted to machines that are used in what they call a 'category C environment'. This is where the welder comes into contact with the job (eg makes contact with it- ie welding out the inside of a tipper trailer for example). The standard also has a temp factor attached to it- VRD needed in temps greater than 32 degrees... One or the other would cover most welding operations in most parts of australia for much of the year.

    TL;DR - VRD is here to stay. It's a safety feature, and doesn't come without cost to the machine manufacturer, hence why cheaper or older machines don't have them./ Sooner or later, all MMA welders will need to have a VRD if they are to be sold in this country... just watch.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Australia
    Age
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    Posts
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    Default

    I thought i put a reply in earlier but guess it didn't go through.

    I have found as Michael mentioned earlier that a quick rub on the floor does the trick to expose a small amount of bare rod and away i go again, I use a set of saw horses with an old door and sheet of cement sheet on top as a bench at the moment and to reach down and rub tip on floor is a small price to pay for the quality of weld this machine produces even with a amateur like me operating lol
    I did try with a scratch plate but once rod leaves it you cant restart without dressing tip again.
    I must admit I do love the fact that machine Auto sets to correct setting's with just a few user input's added IE steel type and thickness, rod size and type and away you go.
    again thanks for all the feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by Grahame Collins View Post
    Hi rbr77,
    First up welcome to the forum.

    You might try this. When you need a non fail arc strike -as in first time and every time - an arc striking plate might possibly be able to solve your problem or at least minimise it.

    A red hot electrode end with the striking end gun barreled- -ie flux proud and wire core down inside the counter sink, is far easier to strike than a cold electrode. I am not a fan of "scrape the flux from the rod and expect it to fire" because of the following:
    The arc, if it initates has no protection from atmospheric oxidisation so the beginning of the bead or tack will affected by oxidisation because if there is no flux cover to transform into a gaseous sheild during the solid to liquid phase of the weld, a time when it is most vulnerable to the effects of oxidisation.

    Multiple arc striking of the unfluxed electrode end all over the job surface does nothing to promote the decent appearance of a job.

    Indeed arc strikes over certain classes of work are a cause of failure and are not acceptable.
    Otherwise stray arc strikes and oxidisation of the beginning of a tack or bead just looks plain shoddy and should not be considered good practice by any welder professional or amateur.

    A tiny disclaimer here.: I have never owned a VRD machine and can't swear to the efficacy of the above process using a VRD equipped machine as I have never tried it. NON VRD units sure! I have used it hundreds of times with NON VRD units and written about it here in this forum. Lots of members have reported success with it. It is just a matter of a piece of scrap plate near the desired area and running a small bead until the electrode end id red hot.before the electrode end becomes cold ,whip it over the the desired arc strike area and begin as normal.

    The key is to do this immediately after breaking the arc of the scrap plate and restrike immediately where you want the new weld bead/tack.

    Hope this works for you

    Grahame

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Brisbane
    Age
    69
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    452

    Default New welder

    Hello from BC.
    Just a few hints for your new welder. The later machines are sensitive to small voltage changes and use these to change welding parameters as necessary to maintain a stable arc. Any resistance in the circuit can give false signals. The earth clamp should go on the job and not the bench. I would check the Dinze cable connectors for good connection. On a few leads we have found the insulation was not stripped before the grub screw was tightened down.
    Make sure you use correct electrode angle, about 15 deg off vertical and lagging. This makes for a better start. If tacking is a major part of your work I would suggest changing to Ferrocraft 21 rods. These are semi iron powder with 115% recovery and easy arc start. We sell them to the security industry where quick starts are needed and fast tack rates count.
    Satincraft 13 are also a great rod so a few questions. Are the rods fresh? Stored in a dry place? Covered in a white powder? Any moisture contamination makes arc start a pain in bum. Reco the rods by heating at 130 Deg C for a few hours to dry them out.
    Your welder is fitted with a hot start facility and arc start should be no worries.
    Regards
    Ol Steamer.

  13. #13
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    Dec 2019
    Location
    Australia
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    46
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    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steamloco1954 View Post
    Hello from BC.
    Just a few hints for your new welder. The later machines are sensitive to small voltage changes and use these to change welding parameters as necessary to maintain a stable arc. Any resistance in the circuit can give false signals. The earth clamp should go on the job and not the bench. I would check the Dinze cable connectors for good connection. On a few leads we have found the insulation was not stripped before the grub screw was tightened down.
    Make sure you use correct electrode angle, about 15 deg off vertical and lagging. This makes for a better start. If tacking is a major part of your work I would suggest changing to Ferrocraft 21 rods. These are semi iron powder with 115% recovery and easy arc start. We sell them to the security industry where quick starts are needed and fast tack rates count.
    Satincraft 13 are also a great rod so a few questions. Are the rods fresh? Stored in a dry place? Covered in a white powder? Any moisture contamination makes arc start a pain in bum. Reco the rods by heating at 130 Deg C for a few hours to dry them out.
    Your welder is fitted with a hot start facility and arc start should be no worries.
    Regards
    Ol Steamer.
    Hi Ol Steamer

    Earth clamp is always on fresh ground part of work piece I will check grub screws for good contact I have seen plenty of power points singed from lazy leckos not striping back insulation,
    I must admit with a little guilt I was using up the last of my rods from an old pack and yes there was a fair amount of powder residue on them which i wiped off before use but defiantly didn't warm them up before use so that no doubt has contributed ( Guilty as charged )
    I actually used the last ones up yesterday and will open fresh pack today and give them a whirl How do you suggest i store them ? possibly a spaghetti container ?
    open to suggestions
    Excuse my knowledge but do you mind explaining Recovery 115% you mention with Ferrocraft 21 and also lagging ? I already hold rod at approx 15 off
    I have watch a few You tube vids but you can never really get a good idea of both angles just looking at a screen.

    Thanks so much for your input

  14. #14
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    Dec 2019
    Location
    Australia
    Age
    46
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    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steamloco1954 View Post
    Hello from BC.
    Just a few hints for your new welder. The later machines are sensitive to small voltage changes and use these to change welding parameters as necessary to maintain a stable arc. Any resistance in the circuit can give false signals. The earth clamp should go on the job and not the bench. I would check the Dinze cable connectors for good connection. On a few leads we have found the insulation was not stripped before the grub screw was tightened down.
    Make sure you use correct electrode angle, about 15 deg off vertical and lagging. This makes for a better start. If tacking is a major part of your work I would suggest changing to Ferrocraft 21 rods. These are semi iron powder with 115% recovery and easy arc start. We sell them to the security industry where quick starts are needed and fast tack rates count.
    Satincraft 13 are also a great rod so a few questions. Are the rods fresh? Stored in a dry place? Covered in a white powder? Any moisture contamination makes arc start a pain in bum. Reco the rods by heating at 130 Deg C for a few hours to dry them out.
    Your welder is fitted with a hot start facility and arc start should be no worries.
    Regards
    Ol Steamer.
    Thanks for reply I checked connections all grub screws are firm nipped up a little more to be sure I run earth always on work piece on clean area. ( Are magnetic earth clamps any good ) as was looking at getting one ?

    I think rods may be the culprit as i was using up the last of an old box and yes they were quiet powdery so likely damp I will start on a new box and see how it goes,

    Do you mind explaining The 115% Recovery and also Lagging for me
    Thanks very much
    Richard

  15. #15
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    Sep 2010
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    Lebrina
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    Default

    The 115% recovery relates to the amount of weld metal produced by the electrode. Let's say that the core wire of the electrode equals 100 units. There will be another 15 units contained in the flux coating as iron powder, naturally as the electrode melts this combines in the molten pool and you have an electrode that actually produces more weld metal than that contained in the core wire. Ferrocraft 21's are a semi iron powder and can be used out of position, while Ferrocraft 22's are full iron powder electrode and are downhand only while giving welding speeds roughly double that of a standard electrode. Ferrocraft 21's use roughly the same amperage as a standard electrode, while 22's use about the same as the next size up standard electrode (run a 3.2mm ferrocraft 22 as you would a 4.0mm rutile electrode).
    Ferrocraft 21's are an E4814 (E7014) electrode and they are really sweet to run, although rarely seen at Bunnings and those types of places. They leave a nice smooth bead and the slag usually comes off really easily. They are probably second only to Ferrocraft 22 E4824 (E7024) as far as ease of use and welder appeal.
    The lagging I suspect was a typo and the post actually meant dragging, so a 15° drag angle in other words.

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