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  1. #1
    Boringgeoff is offline Try not to be late, but never be early.
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    Default Gas V Gasless MIG.

    Hi all,
    Renting Argoshield from BOC and thought I'd buy my own bottle when it finally ran out. I use it on small jobs, use the stick for big jobs and BOC are making more from my renting bottles than refills. But had a thought, what about going over to flux cored wire and ditching the gas altogether?
    Your opinions?
    Cheers,
    Geoff.

  2. #2
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    Gas all day.
    Boc do a D size plan. About $100 for the bottle each year with an included refill. Also do E's and G's on simmilar. I think they even do CO2 which could pull double duties for home brew or some gas assisted FCAW jobs if you've got a big machine capable of running the 1.2 and 1.6 wires for big jobs (711, 81NI grades etc). Who needs more excuses than that?!


    Don't get me wrong, gasless FCAW has it's place (on generator, on farm, in wind etc), but most of the E71T grade stuff out there is single pass only, and most of it is horrible to use. When you start pricing up what a good 'gasless' wire costs, you'd probably reconsider the gas bill with all other options being weighed up. 3-8 times the cost of an equivalent roll of ER70S-6 solid wire.

  3. #3
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    Gas all day.
    Boc do a D size plan. About $100 for the bottle each year with an included refill. Also do E's and G's on simmilar. I think they even do CO2 which could pull double duties for home brew or some gas assisted FCAW jobs if you've got a big machine capable of running the 1.2 and 1.6 wires for big jobs (711, 81NI grades etc). Who needs more excuses than that?!
    My CO2 bottle spends most of its time under the house plumbed to the soda water maker up inside the kitchen.

  4. #4
    Boringgeoff is offline Try not to be late, but never be early.
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    Thanks CK, I read through a few threads here earlier on before posting and got the feeling that BOC might be making some deals that haven't been extended to existing customers. I've had an account with them since 1980 when I started working for myself and used a fair bit of Oxy/ Acetylene then got into the MIG in the mid 90's but since we've retired doesn't get used so much. Every so often the send me a get a free refill deal but the rent on three gas bottles is still fairly steep.
    It looks like I might be best to stick with gas and buy my own bottles.

    Soda water, Italian heritage? I thought the two would be incompatible Bob.
    Cheers,
    Geoff.

  5. #5
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    To get around the nasty anal bill, I pay $20.00 a fortnight to them, as I use about 1 E size every 2 years, it automatically pays for the refill also.
    Gasless has it's place, particularly if a lot of welding is required outside in the wind, and not of a structural nature. It's OK if you're doing a lot of 1.6-2mm, otherwise it's not of much use.
    Kryn
    To grow old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

  6. #6
    Boringgeoff is offline Try not to be late, but never be early.
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    Thanks Kryn,
    I'm only running 0.6 wire and always inside the shed. Any big work I prefer to use the stick welder.
    Cheers,
    Geoff.

  7. #7
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boringgeoff View Post
    Soda water, Italian heritage? I thought the two would be incompatible Bob.
    No way - you may have heard of San Pellegrino? The thermal/mineral springs/waters has been a place of pilgrimage/tourism/healing for centuries, apparently Leonardo Da Vinci used to take the water to refresh himself, The company was one of the first to bottle and ship water more than 100 years ago. Soda was first shipped in the 1930's. Now its owned by Perrier which is owned by Nestle and Pellegrino bottled water has also not actually contained water from the San Pellegrino spring for some time.

    In the early 20th century drinking mineral/soda water was an outward sign that you could afford more than just tap water and its use grew rapidly after WWII. We used to drink a fair bit of that stuff when I visited relatives but stopped after we found it contains all sorts of additives, as does all bottled soda and soft drinks. Some of this is deliberate but some is not. These days, Italian folks that know this (even those with money) and live outside of cities carry a dozen or so empty 2L bottles and stop when they can at high mountain springs to collect purer mountain water. Many small villages still have their own mountain fed village square (Piaxzza [not pizza]) spring where they can get purer water. Then came the household soda makers.

    And that's why we make our own soda direct from filtered water and sometimes flavoured soda using fruit juice direct from real fruit.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boringgeoff View Post
    Thanks CK, I read through a few threads here earlier on before posting and got the feeling that BOC might be making some deals that haven't been extended to existing customers. I've had an account with them since 1980 when I started working for myself and used a fair bit of Oxy/ Acetylene then got into the MIG in the mid 90's but since we've retired doesn't get used so much. Every so often the send me a get a free refill deal but the rent on three gas bottles is still fairly steep.
    It looks like I might be best to stick with gas and buy my own bottles.
    Yeah, the D plan is on the front page of the boc website, and has been sinceI was looking into it about 2 years ago. I was surprised because when I visited the shop, there was posters for it everywhere too. It's a good deal if you only use a bit of gas, about a cylinder or two per year of thereabouts.

    I did a faair bit of research before commiting. When you look into it, nowhere actually lets you 'BUY' your own bottle. You are actually only buying the right to use on of their bottles- I asked one crowd if they refill it out the back and I could get my exact same bottle back, and it's not the case, they just swap it out. So much for buying my own, huh?

    So when you start looking into it, some of the deals where you 'buy your bottle', it's just the equivalent of 3 years rent, paid in advance up front... in disguise as an 'ownership cost'. Then the refill prices are steep (like what the big gas companies charge as their everyday Joe Blo price), and that's before the 50% discount you could get if you meet the sales rep, talk crap for 20 min, and ask him to look after you. I've played that game once or twice before, it's good fun. So at least with BOC who I'm with for now, the cylinder and a refill is around $100 ($2 a week), and I get a replacement each year which is plenty for me. And I didn't have to scrounge up $300-$800 to buy the bottle up front.

    Oh, and you can probably tell I'm not a fan of gasless.
    I'll rip out my Kemppi minarc 150 which weighs about 3kg and stick weld all day, before I set up the gasless mig and fart and pop my way thru the job.

  9. #9
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    Yeah, the D plan is on the front page of the boc website, and has been sinceI was looking into it about 2 years ago. I was surprised because when I visited the shop, there was posters for it everywhere too. It's a good deal if you only use a bit of gas, about a cylinder or two per year of thereabouts.

    I did a faair bit of research before commiting. When you look into it, nowhere actually lets you 'BUY' your own bottle. You are actually only buying the right to use on of their bottles- I asked one crowd if they refill it out the back and I could get my exact same bottle back, and it's not the case, they just swap it out. So much for buying my own, huh?
    It depends on the gas and where you go - in Perth there's a place about 5km from my place there's a one man operation (Pressure testing services) that tests and fills (mainly CO2) gas bottles. He keeps a wide range/types/sizes of filled bottles on hand but if he doesn't have a bottle on hand exactly like your bottle he will refill your bottle out the back for the same price as a swap'n'go ($30 for a D size CO2). However refilling does take about 20 minutes. It was definitely filled on the spot because it was the same bottle and it came back covered in frost.

  10. #10
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    CO2 is a liquefied gas, not too dissimilar to filling a LPG cylinder (although about 700psi vapour pressure). Should be filled by weight, but some cowboys who fill 'til she overflows will not maintain sufficient ullage space for it to be safe (safety relief valve may become inoperable). Ask him for a current test certificate for his filling scales and watch him squirm. I dare ya!

    On the other hand, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who will fill an industrial gas cylinder to 300BAR out the back of a one-man operation (mig gas, for example).

  11. #11
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    CO2 is a liquefied gas, not too dissimilar to filling a LPG cylinder (although about 700psi vapour pressure). Should be filled by weight, but some cowboys who fill 'til she overflows will not maintain sufficient ullage space for it to be safe (safety relief valve may become inoperable). Ask him for a current test certificate for his filling scales and watch him squirm. I dare ya!

    On the other hand, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who will fill an industrial gas cylinder to 300BAR out the back of a one-man operation (mig gas, for example).
    Before you slag off any business it might pay to find out bit more about it. He may only be a one man operation but what I didn't say is that he is "The man" everyone takes their cylinders to be checked and re-certified when they run out of of time. He is also used extensively by fireies and fire extinguisher companies around town and I seriously doubt they would use any old cowboy to test and fill their used CO2 cylinders. That's good enough for me.

  12. #12
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    Bit hard to research a specific business when we are talking in anecdotes mate. But more broadly, I know this industry well, and talk on knowledge overall.
    But my challenge still stands. Many (but not all) people who are filling CO2 are filling until it liquid sputters out the relief valve - ie not maintaining a proper ullage space for the gas to expand if the cylinder is heated.

    Bonus naughty points could be awarded if he's filling indoors. There should also be a CO2 monitor in the building as well if he stores product on his shelf.
    And to test a seamless high pressure industrial cylinder like CO2, your mate must really be doing a roaring trade to invest in the $100K of plant and equipment for this purpose- I'm sure he's tooled up with a hydrostatic test rig and ultrasonic testing gear to put another 10 years test on it. Need I go on?

    I've seen plenty of 'those men' come and go over the years, and I've got my fair share of business from these very people who show up one day, sell cheap CO2 (and everything else), and are nowhere to be found when the bottle is empty or out of test. Including one bloke who said his customers could 'just go the the post office and send your cylinder to Sydney for filling'. Could you imagine the face of the mail clerk when you try to stuff that package in the red post box? It's so stupid it's laughable.

  13. #13
    BobL is offline Member: Blue and white apron brigade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander_Keen View Post
    Bit hard to research a specific business when we are talking in anecdotes mate. But more broadly, I know this industry well, and talk on knowledge overall.
    But my challenge still stands. Many (but not all) people who are filling CO2 are filling until it liquid sputters out the relief valve - ie not maintaining a proper ullage space for the gas to expand if the cylinder is heated.

    Bonus naughty points could be awarded if he's filling indoors. There should also be a CO2 monitor in the building as well if he stores product on his shelf.
    And to test a seamless high pressure industrial cylinder like CO2, your mate must really be doing a roaring trade to invest in the $100K of plant and equipment for this purpose- I'm sure he's tooled up with a hydrostatic test rig and ultrasonic testing gear to put another 10 years test on it. Need I go on? .
    You can sprout all the tech talk and make as many claims as you like but it doesn't impress or fool me one jot when it's accompanied by continually slagging off about about someone you do not know. BTW if you did read it before jumping to conclusions I did mention the business name in my first post.

    To be clear, he's not my mate, he's a legitimately qualified operator that has been around for decades. Again let me say he does a a lot of work for fire-ies and extinguisher companies who wouldn't be going to a cowboy for their stuff. He does indeed have LOTS of plant - even from what I can see standing at the doorway of his factory unit operation I can tell he has way more than $100K worth of gear. His large pressure vessel and industrial scale compressor test gear alone would be more than this.

    Now maybe how about taking your foot out of your mouth before you sprout more unfounded accusations.

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