Needs Pictures: 0
Picture(s) thanks: 0
Results 61 to 75 of 78
Thread: Another stupid sparky question
-
28th May 2021, 11:52 AM #61Senior Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2021
- Location
- Adelaide
- Posts
- 205
I think the mains plug has been changed from at least 15 to 10 amps.
In the US, as a rule of thumb:
- A welder running on 208 – 230V primary requires a minimum breaker size of 30A with 50A recommend (this would be for welding at up to 180 amps).
- Welding at an output of 200 amps or more requires at least a 50A breaker.
In Australia we generally don't have 50 amp domestic circuits.
(I'm not an electrician)
Welding at 200 amps is probably about 4kW which translates to a mains current of about 17 amps. Taking power factor and efficiency into consideration and you are probably looking at 30 to 40 amps - say 40 amps (OK, no PFC and low efficiency).
On modern welders, that 40 amps is called Imax. It is the current that would be drawn if you welded continuously and for that, you would need a breaker bigger than 40 amps.
Another current, Ieff (the effective current) is the average current drawn based on the duty cycle of the welder. Attached is something from a BOC manual.
On a modern welder, Ieff is approximately (Imax2 * DutyCycle)1/2
= (402 * 0.3)1/2 = 22 amps
So, assuming a 30% duty cycle, the 40 amp welder needs a 25 amp breaker (and circuit).
If you exceed the duty cycle, eventually the breaker will pop.
This is approximate and just for illustration but it shows why US welders when imported into Australia often have lower duty cycles listed in the manual.
Jack
-
28th May 2021, 05:03 PM #62Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
- Location
- Gosford
- Age
- 63
- Posts
- 173
Thanks Jack. I felt it may be something to do with American 110V / 220V power supply but it doesn't explain why Caron says 15 Amp Circuit when everything else says 50. I'll have to watch his video again to see what he is saying.
I found a sticker on the one I have that says it must not be connected to an outlet of less then 30 Amps and I'm assuming this is an Australian model. I have a 32 Amp circuit in my shed but it is only fitted with a 15 amp outlet. I'll need to look into a 30 amp outlet, plug and input cable. But then again I would never expect to run it at full 225 amp anyway, if at all.
I wonder what it did to anything that tried to connect it to a 10 amp GPO.
-
28th May 2021, 06:03 PM #63
To add,
Imax Is peak amperage (momentary, usually at arc initiation, or shortly after).
Ieff Is average amperage at max machine load (consistent - ie what it will draw on full power, consistently)
Not all circuit breakers are created equal, different trip curves (current and time), so in most cases a high Imax won't bother it, but a high Ieff will. This is where you can go to a D curve breaker which is abit more resilient to the high momentary Imax spikes, but still offer a suitable level of protection for a Ieff value within the design limit / current capacity of the conductor (aka your Wires).
-
28th May 2021, 06:06 PM #64Senior Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2021
- Location
- Adelaide
- Posts
- 205
I don't know the welder but I am thinking old transformer. That and 225 amps suggests that an outlet of more than 15 amps is required.
I found a sticker on the one I have that says it must not be connected to an outlet of less then 30 Amps and I'm assuming this is an Australian model. I have a 32 Amp circuit in my shed but it is only fitted with a 15 amp outlet. I'll need to look into a 30 amp outlet, plug and input cable.
But then again I would never expect to run it at full 225 amp anyway, if at all.
I wonder what it did to anything that tried to connect it to a 10 amp GPO.
A lot of people get away with swapping 15A plugs for 10A plugs - swapping a 25 or 32 amp plug for a 10 amp plug is seriously pushing your luck.
Jack
-
28th May 2021, 06:13 PM #65
Remember, the typical american household voltage is 110/120 ish volts, that means on their supply a given task takes twice the current.
Some of these welders are rewirable for different voltages, others contain a different transformer/choke.
If a choke welder typically produces 120 amps welding current on Australian 240 volt supply it will typically be connected with a 15 amp plug, a 150 amp welder more like a 20 amp plug.
If you do the math .. current and voltage, it does not add up because choke welders are very lossy.
Modern inverter welders will produce a lot more welding current from a given supply and with a much smoother current profile.
Remember none of this nominal current is real steady state current ..... it will peak way higher than the rated input and it's continuous current will probably be lower, particularly when the welding current is set below maximum output.
In Australia we have 10, 15 and 20 amp standard 3 pin plugs without going to heavy industrial
we have three core flex in 10 amp 1mm2, 15 amp flex in 1.5mm2 and 20 amp flex in 2.5mm2.
If it is a heavy industrial welder it may require a 32, or 40 amp single phase plug or iut may run of two or three phases .... these plugs will look like nothing you will see in the home.
WE DO NOT talk in wire guage. The whole American way of electrical though is different to Australian and the rest of the world.Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
Most powertools have sharp teeth.
People are made of meat.
Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.
-
28th May 2021, 06:28 PM #66Senior Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2021
- Location
- Adelaide
- Posts
- 205
Understood but this is a 220 volt welder. Most (better) American single phase welders operate on 110 or 220 volts but they are seriously rerated when operating on 110 volts.
In Australia we have 10, 15 and 20 amp standard 3 pin plugs without going to heavy industrial
we have three core flex in 10 amp 1mm2, 15 amp flex in 1.5mm2 and 20 amp flex in 2.5mm2.
WE DO NOT talk in wire guage. The whole American way of electrical though is different to Australian and the rest of the world.
Jack
-
28th May 2021, 07:04 PM #67Pink 10EE owner
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- near Rockhampton
- Posts
- 6,216
-
28th May 2021, 07:40 PM #68
I was posting specifically about the flexes and plugs, that may be fitted to "appliances"
Under current wiring rules and when fault loop impedance is considered. There is no specific wire cross section for any building wiring, 10 and 15 amp outlets may need to be wired in much heavier wire than 2.5mm2.
Also consider that there may be multiple 10 amp outlets on a single circult, where where there are 15 and 20 amp outlets there can ( under most circumstances) be only 1 singe outlet on a circuit.
As for those other plugs ...... they are not General Purpose Outlets and they are uncommon and in generally restricted to special application like "cooker plugs".
Anything larger than a common 20 amp, 3 pin plug, particularly an industrial item should be fitted with an Industrial type plug, there are of course heavier flexes for industrial purposes.Any thing with sharp teeth eats meat.
Most powertools have sharp teeth.
People are made of meat.
Abrasives can be just as dangerous as a blade.....and 10 times more painfull.
-
28th May 2021, 08:34 PM #69Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
- Location
- Gosford
- Age
- 63
- Posts
- 173
I will have to look more closely at the machine to determine the exact model and if it was made (labelled) for Australian use. These things are as common as hotdogs in the states. Every man, boy and dog has one and they now come in 2 versions. AC 225 and more recently the AC 225 DC 125. Many videos exist of people restoring old ones and putting bridge rectifiers in the AC ones to make a bastardised DC welder. Google it or do some youtube searches. There are plenty of clowns showing them off and doing stuff with them. Amusing to say the least. Americans can be funny sometimes.
If this unit was sold in Australia and requires a minimum 30 amp circuit, then I don't know many places that would have that circuitry built into their sheds. They can be run off a single phase from a 3 phase circuit (apparently). I don't know anything about these units being translated into Australian use, which is why I've asked if anybody knows of them over here. I now have one.
I just see a big mismatch in the size of the input cable and the rated input specs. Something doesn't sit right. To be honest the input power cable looks original and there would be no way it is capable of 30 amps. 15 or 20 max.
I inherited this welder during a bizarre situation that needs not be discussed here, but I recognised what it was and decided to bring it home for the novelty (with another 2 stick welders that are a different topic again). I have not seen them in Australia before this one but they are all over USA. They weigh about 50 kg or more and are a big multi-tapped iron core transformer with a fan and a selector switch in a red box that looks like a tombstone.
Edit; Just re-watched the Kevin Caron video on replay a few times. He is saying "220 Volt 50 Amp circuit breaker".
Added: Well it would seem that to wire this into a power supply would require 4 mm cable (3 core t&e) and a 32 Amp round 3 round pin outlet socket and plug. I have 4 mm wiring to a single dedicated outlet but it is only fitted with a 15 amp flat pin outlet for my modern welders. I will have a look at the size of the wire on the existing input cable. I doubt it is 4 mm with a 10 amp plug but I'll have a look.
-
29th May 2021, 07:07 PM #70Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
- Location
- Gosford
- Age
- 63
- Posts
- 173
Well, if anybody is interested, this unit is built in Australia by Lincoln Australia. It has a NSW Energy certification plate and also one that says it complies with Australian Standards, 1966, whatever that is. I'm assuming it is the standards from the year 1966. My preliminary investigation shows that, as I thought, the input cable is actually original. It is 4 sq mm cable and it is actually tinned copper multi-strand wire, and it's in good condition still. I think this welder has been sat in a shed somewhere.
Some idiot has long ago fitted a 15 amp plug and then filed the earth pin down to fit a 10 amp GPO. It was most likely rendered unusable at that point so it has probably been unused for most of it's life. This plug is no longer there. It never ceases to amaze me what some people will do, and surprisingly not burn the shed down or electrocute themselves.
The stickers and plates on it say to not connect to a power supply rated at under 30 amps and also that the input amperage is 26 amps at 250 volts. I'm old enough to remember 250 volts, but I think we are now 240 volts supply on a good day.
The collectable value is that it is in really good condition, with probably very little use and it still has the protective removable plastic on the main dial plate. Just like my 30 year old Fender scratch plate. The paint job is still in fair condition but it has sat on dirt floor at some point. It is fitted with the Lincoln accessory wheel kit and the work leads and attachments appear to be original as well. Do you leave it original or replace with more serviceable items?
These things are all over the USA. I wonder how many exist in Australia.
I watched one video where a guy tried to scrap one and then advised against it as the transformer windings are aluminium strips and the units contains hardly any copper. Probably why the price point in the states is so low still even today.
-
29th May 2021, 10:35 PM #71Pink 10EE owner
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- near Rockhampton
- Posts
- 6,216
The 225 amp lincoln tombstone welder I have seen has a 32 amp plug.
Gold, the colour of choice for the discerning person.
-
29th May 2021, 11:07 PM #72Most Valued Member
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- melbourne australia
- Posts
- 3,228
-
30th May 2021, 08:17 AM #73Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
- Location
- Gosford
- Age
- 63
- Posts
- 173
-
30th May 2021, 08:58 AM #74Diamond Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
- Location
- South of Adelaide
- Posts
- 1,225
-
30th May 2021, 11:06 AM #75Member
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
- Location
- Gulfview Heights, Adelaide
- Posts
- 83
In summary, in Australia, this Lincoln welder should run from a 32 amp rated supply on single phase ( 240 volts).
Paul.
Similar Threads
-
Sparky patch lead question
By Legion in forum WELDINGReplies: 8Last Post: 19th May 2014, 09:18 PM