Thread: upgraded welder

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

That only applies to AC current. DC will run with much lower OCV. Low hydrogen electrodes should always be run on electrode positive using DC current.
Low OCV will not normally affect the weld. If the OCV is too low, there will not be a weld as the electrode will not run.
Arc voltage will affect the bead profile, more voltage gives a wider, flatter weld given the same amperage.

Hi Karl, I am not too familiar with either his machine or the rods as I don't usually stick weld, I just got those specs off the rod manufactures site so I assume that they know what the rods can do, however as you know you can only change the amperage on small stick welders and the voltage will fluctuate with what ever the machine can put out for that given amperage and changes with the length of the arc. The low OCV voltage will primarily affect the start up arc so if Azzrock can get a small arc going without it going out or sticking then he should be able to get a bead going, however having said that, the low OCV will also cause an unstable bead whilst welding and will probably get worse as the bead progresses due to the limited capacity and low duty cycle of the unit. Cranking the amps up may alleviate the problem somewhat as the voltage should also increase a bit as well, which also seems likely why Azzrock can get a bead using the higher amperages.

Azzrock said he didn't seem to have a problem with the standard electrodes so that is why I suspect it may have a low OCV, as it is a new to him welder because he just bought it, it may also have a fault in it as well, not all welders are suited to using Low Hydrogen electrodes as they are mainly specialist electrodes and the DX13 is a low end welder for home use, (Sorry Azzrock, I know it is your pride and joy and I don't want to denigrate your equipment), hence the reason I suspect it is the low OCV. Even if it has a reasonably OCV at the arc strike, that may not guarantee that the welder can sustain a higher voltage for more than an instant to be useful using those electrodes.

As I said earlier I am having a guess, he can run standard electrodes OK so that is the main thing, so without testing it there is no way to find out, but that is my best guess! and just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

Ed.

DC will hold an arc at very low voltages, this is due to the fact that the arc is not extinguished at the zero point of the AC cycle. The Vortex is a DC inverter with a 65V OCV which is more than adequate for any electrode, even a bare wire would run an arc with it.
Here's the link for the manual http://www.welding.com.au/assets/doc...ortex_dx13.pdf
What makes you say that the WIA Vortex was a low end machine? When these were produced, there were no cheap low end inverters in my recollection.
The only information I can find on the Weldex 70's states they are simply a low iron powder, low hydrogen E4818 electrode. As such I would expect it to require a minimum 70 OCV for AC current, but that does not apply at all to a DC welder for the above mentioned reason.
I will be very surprised if this is a voltage related issue as there is not as great deal of difference noted between Rutile and Low Hydrogen electrodes run on DC, as for AC current, in fact I often prefer the Low Hydrogen running characteristics on DC.
It shouldn't be an issue I know, seeing as there are all new leads, but I would check for poor contacts, (perhaps at the back of the DINSE socket), if the actual running of the electrode is a problem.
I am not familiar with the Weldex electrodes, but at the prices being quoted, I am guessing they are of Chinese origin and are therefore pretty suspect.
I have run quite a few Chinese electrodes and with the exception of some about twenty years ago, hate the lot of them. Come to think of it, most of them had a fair appetite for amperage if you wanted to keep slag inclusions at bay. I also notice that there are no mentions of any approvals for the Weldex electrodes which makes me wonder as well. I definitely wouldn't use them for anything critical.
I'll be interested to hear what actual problems Azzrock was having.

Hi Karl, you and I seem to be two only wading in on this subject, but anyway thank you for the link as I haven't been able to find one. After having a look at it I stand corrected as to calling it a low end machine and owe Azzrock and apology, Sorry Azzrock, I have been used to seeing so many 130 amp welders for so many years that were only suitable for boat anchors due to poor build quality very low duty cycles and built to a budget that I classed this one as in the same category. It seems to have a relatively good for that sized machine 35% duty cycle at full amps. The OCV is 65V which is reasonable and I expect being just shy of 5V of the rod makers recommended voltage shouldn't make any difference, but they did state 70V minimum so who knows, which leaves us with either a fault, the rods or just user inexperience with low Hydrogen rods.

Seeing as he doesn't have a problem with standard rods and I assume he is using 6013 then the most likely culprit will be the electrodes, perhaps it wouldn't hurt by putting a multimeter across the terminals to measure the voltage, The ones I used were also low hydrogen rods, but they were old ones in an open packet that had been sitting in a pawn shop for I don't know how long with some rust on the bottoms and not heated when I used them, so I didn't expect great things from them and it took me about 5-6 rods to get used to the way they worked before I was happy enough with the welds. Still don't like them but for me it was just practice anyway as I don't stick weld as a rule.

Cheers

Ed.

No apology needed at all.
Where abouts did you find the specs for those electrodes? I went to STRATA and didn't find any voltage specs for any of their Weldex electrodes.
The 70V OCV specification applies ONLY when using AC current. The reason for this is along with elements in the flux coating a minimum 70 OCV is required to re ignite the arc every time the voltage drops to zero in the AC cycle. Not all electrodes will even run on AC current, E4110, E4815 come to mind as a couple of examples. Now of course we have WIA 16TC and Ferrocraft 16XT which are an E4816 Low Hydrogen electrode that will run on a 45V OCV AC machine, due in part to a twin coating process.
When the Vortex came out, handbag welders, (inverters), were still something pretty damn speccy and if you had one on a job site it was worthy of comment.

Not sure of the exact site, I "googled" weldex 70 and it was in one of the listings but didn't take notice of which one, I did go through quite a few before I got the info .

Ed.

hi every one thanks for all the replys ill read and reply hopefully tonight after work.
thanks again

Originally Posted by Ed..

Hi, If you have more of that same size cable and you need longer leads then that size cable will handle more than what your machine can ever put out, I take it that cable is actual battery/welder cable with several hundred strands and not just 7 core? If it is I think what you have is the equivalent of 2/0 cable which is what I run on mine, I have an 8m earth and a 4m mig torch on it and my machine can put out 560 amp. Not that I use those sort of amps however I did 350A for about 1.5 hours once and the cable was fine for that. Not sure what your welder outputs but judging from it's size in the photo I would say maybe 150A-160A tops, so if you wanted to put 10m-15m leads on it still wouldn't be a problem. Enjoy!

Cheers

Ed.

hi Ed. it seems all is good with the cables then. I used that size because that's the other cables i had seemed to thin
and i didn't have much. i have plenty of the the larger one so i might make some extension cables to use
if i need longer leads. they also make great jumper leads.
this is a photo of the leads i used the blue ones. the orange was my other choice but the leads would of had to
be 2 meters at most.
SAM_0833.JPG

thanks Karl and Ed.
I think that some of the problem is defiantly technique.
Karl thanks for the link. that's great. i hadn't thought
of checking online for the rods characteristics.
There may be a fault with the machine and i have to
keep in mind it cost $51. probably the new leads would
cost more that that.
I have to try not be clumsy with setting the amps.
With Wia 4916a 3.2 mm electrodes there seems no
problem with a setting of around 90 amps except
my technique including some better gloves so i can steady
the rod. As well as this try weld with no extension lead.
SAM_0837.jpg

with the 2.5 mm low hydrogen electrode it is all a mess
i can get a arc but it sticks easily at around 80amps.
i should try some down hand.
i can even get a weld going with the 3.2mm at that setting.
SAM_0839.jpg
ill have to reread the posts so far.
aaron

I find I don't need to steady the rod with anything over 2.0mm. The rod itself is stiff enough that if you can keep the electrode holder still (sometimes with two hands) the rod won't deflect. 1.6mm rods are another story.

Bear in mind I'm a beginner myself, so take my following questions/comments with a grain of salt.

In the first picture, what's with the fish scale ripples? Is that an artefact of those particular rods or do you use a particular technique to produce them?

In the second picture, I'd ignore what the box recommendation says and crank the amps up more and more until you get a satisfactory result. Well, either that or I'd throw the rods away and try something different.

Both those welds look pretty cold to me.
Have you tried normal rutile electrodes at the same setting and in the same position? I find that low hydrogen will run at similar amperage or a bit lower even.

hi again. Ive been working on my problem with welding with 2.5mm low hydrogen rods.
not only with my wia welder but a cig inverter.
it seems that with wia4916 rods im starting to have some success. which is great.
all the other 2.5mm low hydrogen rods it seems like im wasting my time.
i cant strike a decant arc until i turn the amps up and then as soon as a rod sticks
it will turn black and and some time start to flame.
Ive learned hear from ed and Karl that i can get rod characteristics online and not all rods
will be suitable.
to say the least i prefer still to weld with 3.2mm rods but this isn't all ways possible

Legion. how are you. Id say im a learner too mate i find with any weld that's not down hand i really helps me to direct or steady the rod with my left hand.
that first pic is my version of a xmas tree pattern.

hi again Karl. the amps may be low ill try bump it up a little .by rutile do you mean something like. satin craft?
im going to try that know
Karl with the vertical ive been setting the amps lower than the same weld in the down hand position.
ill try again with higher settings

Rutile electrodes are typically EXX12, EXX13 classifications. EXX14 and EXX24 are also rutile, but contain an amount of iron powder. EXX14 electrodes will handle out of position work, but EXX24's are strictly a downhand proposition.
Some common types of rutile electrodes would be Kobe RB-26, Satincraft 13, Austarc 12P, Austarc 13S, GP6012 among others no doubt.
Generally those ending in 12 are vert down and those ending in 13 are vert up.
Given that your Vortex is DC current, it shouldn't be at all fussy about electrode types when running low hydrogen. WIA 16TC's are a sweet running low hydro and will run on low OCV AC machines, they are however prone to porosity at the start of a run in my experience, (this is really only an issue if welding to code).
Vertical up generally does use less amperage than downhand, but of course this is also dependent on material thickness. When running low hydrogen, it will usually be best to hold a close arc length. I would probably aim for around 5 degrees below horizontal electrode angle as a starting point when welding vertical up, remembering the essential pause at each toe of the weld when weaving.
Most of my stick welding is done with either an EXX12 for thin tube work or either EXX16 or EXX18 for strength work. The 18's are low hydrogen with a small amount of iron powder which improves arc characteristics and deposition rate.
Given that your welder seems to run 3.2 ok then neither voltage or amperage deficiencies should be an issue and you might just need to play around a bit more. A good general rule for all welding processes is to use the maximum power that you and the material can handle.

nice post Karl. thanks. Ive been working on my vertical up welds a bit lately.
I have to. on accessions repair machinery with a welder. so not only does the weld have to be strong
but its has to look good as well. because its my work.
I dont know much about code welding but would ques it has to do with pressure vesicles.. hand rails
and stanchions...
im shore some of the welds i do should be to code.(lifting equipment ect) these things are all ways over
looked.
thanks again
aaron

Coded welding typically refers to pressure vessels and piping, but can also refer to other critical applications.
What lifting gear are you working on?
I would definitely use low hydrogen for most machinery repair work.

cool. I get it. spreaders for lifting containers and over-height spreaders
mainly
aaron