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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
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    Perth
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    185

    Default Purchased Machienry houses Tig / Mig / MMa

    Hey got stumped

    Purchased a while back from machinery house a mig / tig / mma 250 model, I thought at the time 240 volt yeh no problems.

    So a year has gone by, Ive had spare migs and tigs and finally Ive got the time to set it up properly and wire it up, it saids 32amp 240 volt, what the heck is that.

    Isnt anything over 15amp meant to be 415volt 3 phase.

    Umm, does anyone know how this is to be wired in.

    W182 | MIG-TIG-MMA COMPACT 250K INVERTER Multi-Function Welder | machineryhouse.com.au

    Thanks

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Adelaide
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simso View Post
    ... Ive got the time to set it up properly and wire it up, it saids 32amp 240 volt, what the heck is that.

    Isnt anything over 15amp meant to be 415volt 3 phase.
    Simso,

    an unhelpful answer coming, I am afraid.

    No, there are some appliances over 15A that are still 240V, usually industrial equipment. Heaters, ovens, welders, big single phase motors etc, not things you would usually see round your house. There are reasons these would be better off on three phase, but they don't have to be. It is quite possible to have a 20A (three round pins) and 32A (three big round pins) plug/sockets for 240V.

    Like the 15A sockets these need a dedicated circuit, you will need to get a sparky in to add that. You will probably have to upgrade the run to your shed too, if that's where you are going to use it, you'll need to get that checked. A 32A circuit is a _serious_ step up in circuit size, there is a real danger of burning your place down if you don't have it done properly.

    Regards
    SWK

  3. #3
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    Aug 2005
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    Perth
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    Default

    Yeh, Im wondering whether the single phase can be wired to be plugged into a three phase outlet, I have 3 phase.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Gracemere
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    Default

    Both my machines a Miller tig and a T&R mig are both rated at 40 amps max. I run these off a 15 amp circuit just fine. It has alot to do with the duty cycle and being at home it is unlikely u will be maxing out the amps on the welder.
    Along as you have a correctly installed 15 amp circuit for it you will have no problems.

    I use this style of 3 pin plug on mine.
    20130810_140755.jpg

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Adelaide
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    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simso View Post
    Yeh, Im wondering whether the single phase can be wired to be plugged into a three phase outlet, I have 3 phase.
    Simso,
    In theory, yes you can run single phase things on three phase. In practice the problem of large current draw on single phase will then happen on the three phase instead. If you have a three phase outlet rated at 32A you may be OK (see a qualified electrician).
    For a non technical explanation, the advantage of 3 phase is that it spreads the current across 3 wires instead of 1 for single phase (well, 1 active and one neutral), so each wire only carries a third of the current for the same power. Smaller current gives lots of advantages one of them being smaller wires (and fuses and plugs etc) are needed.

    Without physically changing the inverter in your welder to a 3 phase inverter, plugging your welder as it is in to a 3 phase plug will still mean two phases do nothing and one still carries all the load.

    Regards
    SWK

  6. #6
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    Jan 2009
    Location
    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwcarter View Post
    Along as you have a correctly installed 15 amp circuit for it you will have no problems.
    CWCarter,
    here is a copy of a Clipsal circuit breaker catalogue, please look closely at page 84 showing trip curves for their circuit breakers. (the numbers along the bottom are numbers of times the rated current. So for a 15A CB 1=15, 2=30, 10=150 etc)

    Most people don't get this. A circuit breaker will not trip at its rated current.
    It will only trip at a current somewhat higher than that. The further over its rating the current is the quicker it trips. Depending on the type of circuit breaker (curve B, C or D) this excess may be from 3 to 14 times its rating for an "instant" trip. The "instant" trip may be up to a second or so long. Depending on the curve of the CB, running at double the rated current it won't trip for 10-30 seconds. Running at 50% over rating it may be a minute or so. However, the wiring of the 15A circuit was only expected to run for longish periods at the maximum of its rated value. Any faults expected to operate the CBs were expected to be dead shorts or similar with very high currents, not prolonged currents just over the circuit rating.
    Any 15A connectors (on CBs, fuses, junction boxes, power outlets) are carrying more current than they were designed to do and over time they _will_ show signs of damage.
    The explanation also applies to fuses too (curves will be slightly different but the principle is the same, and in fact old wire fuses can be worse in this respect).

    I do not know what protection your 15A circuit has, fuse or CB, I do not know if the person who put it in used oversized wire and connectors which may save you somewhat. However, it seems to me you are operating that circuit in a manner it was not meant to be operated. Pushing the current to levels the circuit breaker (or fuse) won't cut out for quickly but which, over time, may lead to degradation of the insulation but will will lead to hot joints (or worse) at connectors.

    Simso,
    do not run your welder with a plug less than the recommended size on a circuit designed for less than the rating on the nameplate. If you were unlucky enough to burn down your shed (or worse, your house) insurance assessors would fairly quickly work out the source of the fire and you would be screwed.

    Regards
    SWK

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Lebrina
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swk View Post
    Simso,
    In theory, yes you can run single phase things on three phase. In practice the problem of large current draw on single phase will then happen on the three phase instead. If you have a three phase outlet rated at 32A you may be OK (see a qualified electrician).
    For a non technical explanation, the advantage of 3 phase is that it spreads the current across 3 wires instead of 1 for single phase (well, 1 active and one neutral), so each wire only carries a third of the current for the same power. Smaller current gives lots of advantages one of them being smaller wires (and fuses and plugs etc) are needed.

    Without physically changing the inverter in your welder to a 3 phase inverter, plugging your welder as it is in to a 3 phase plug will still mean two phases do nothing and one still carries all the load.

    Regards
    SWK
    Best talk to a sparkie. It is not as simple as just plugging in to the 3 phase. You need a 5 pin 3 phase outlet, with the central pin being neutral I believe, (there is no neutral in a 4 pin 3 phase outlet, only L1 L2 L3 and Earth).
    I wouldn't be too concerned overall, I am aware of a WIA weldmatic 270 that has been humming along for some years, (with the dials turned way up), on a 15A plug. The circuit breaker will give out long before you burn your house down, BUT, for safety's sake, talk to a sparky.
    As a matter of interest, if you had 3 phase, why did you choose single phase machine? Are you planning to use it in multiple locations? I ask only because this will have a bearing on your choices re. plugs etc.

  8. #8
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    Jun 2010
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    Canberra
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simso View Post
    Yeh, Im wondering whether the single phase can be wired to be plugged into a three phase outlet, I have 3 phase.
    It depends on the socket, i.e. whether it's a 4 or 5-pin version. If it's a 4-pin, then no you can't as there's only 3 phases of 415v available plus an earth pin. If it's a 5 pin, then there's a neutral, and you can get 240V - all you need to do is get a sparky to fit the matching plug.

    Edit - beaten by Karl.

  9. #9
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    May 2013
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    Gracemere
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    Just checked the manual from the Uni-Mig site for this machine and it states "Being 240v single phase gives great portability, it can be run from any 15 Amp power socket providing more flexible use for site and home workshop locations."
    Good enough for me. Also checked max currents and in MMA its rated at 49Amps.

  10. #10
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    Aug 2005
    Location
    Perth
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    Default

    Thanks folks,

    Yes its not really that portable as they make it out to be.

    I have no intention of hot wiring this unit, whilst yes Im comfortable putting a plug on the machine, no Im not comfortable stuffing around with the wiring.

    Im pretty sure the three phase I have in the place is actually 4mm wire, I cant remember if it runs a neutral, everything I have so far has been wired up by an elec'y, I have the 8k worth of bills so far to prove it, just dreading the thought of $1000 to just simply have this machine wired into the circuit board.

    So much for the machine being portable

    Thanks

  11. #11
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    Perth
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cwcarter View Post
    Just checked the manual from the Uni-Mig site for this machine and it states "Being 240v single phase gives great portability, it can be run from any 15 Amp power socket providing more flexible use for site and home workshop locations."
    Good enough for me. Also checked max currents and in MMA its rated at 49Amps.
    Hey I just went to uni-migs website and downloaded the manual direct from the manufcaturer, what gives, it saids in the paperwork can be run from any 15amp power supply....hang on machinery house say 32 amp ###...

  12. #12
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    Default

    I would follow what the manufacturer recommends, they now what there doing.

  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cwcarter View Post
    I would follow what the manufacturer recommends, they now what there doing.
    I've run that machine from a 15amp outlet with no problems

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubman View Post
    I've run that machine from a 15amp outlet with no problems
    Awesome to hear.

    So confusing, why would machinery house say it needs a 32 amp power supply and yet the manufacturer saids it's designed to run on a 15amp power supply.

    how does one actually work out the power requirements for themselves.

    im fitting a 15 amp power cord and,plug on today, a standard 15 amp wall plug I cannot get onto there cable, it's like 4mm thick each wire, so ill put a whole new 15amp prewired cord into the machine

    thanks for letting us know, do you use yours for stick mig or tig

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by simso View Post
    .
    im fitting a 15 amp power cord and,plug on today, a standard 15 amp wall plug I cannot get onto there cable, it's like 4mm thick each wire, so ill put a whole new 15amp prewired cord into the machine
    Thats why I use the Clipsal industrial 15 amp plug shown earlier, gives you a bit more room to fit off. Most electrical wholesales will stock these.

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