Health and Safety Forum

[adrian]

I've looked around the site but can't find anything dedicated to health and safety.
I would like to see a Health and Safety Issues Forum opened up so that people can post information like:
Accidents they have had and what caused them.
Near misses.
Tool failures which may have caused accidents.
A forum like this could contribute to members being better able to construct their workshops and also could lead to pressure on manufacturers to redesign tools and machinery where a pattern of common failures becomes evident.
If there is one started I would like to see it at the top of the list of forums where it should be.

[Shane Watson]

Not sure what search criteria you used, but this topic has been talked about many many times. Especially when it comes to breathable contagents.

Will leave it to Neil to decide if he wants to add yet another forum.

CHeers.

[adrian]

As a regular user of the site I am familiar with many of the safety concerns raised but it is such an important topic it deserves a separate forum. Most of us have been injured, some severely, and some killed by the tools we use in woodworking every day. For instance, I just don't think it should be necessary for someone to have to wade through dozens of table saw threads to find out about 'kickback'. Kickback is a term they may not be familiar with so would not search for it.

[DanP]

I think it adds an element of liability to the BB if you have a dedicated OH&S forum. What if someone does themselves an injury whilst following advice received here. I don't particularly agree with that line of thinking, but you know insurance companies. They will sue if they think they're half a chance of getting anything back. People mostly post when they have a near miss anyway.

If people are not familiar with the term "kickback" they probably shouldn't be using a table saw.

Dan

[ozwinner]

And as these forums show, just because the thread is titled "Kick Back".:D

It wont continue with talking about kick back for very long. :D
Youd be lucky to get two posts keeping on thread. :(


If you are conserned about safety, then go here, there is enough guff to make your head spin.

http://www.workcover.vic.gov.au/dir090/vwa/home.nsf


Al

[Ben from Vic.]

Most of us have been injured, some severely, and some killed

:D

Safety is a serious subject, but I'd prefer not to have this BB turn all safety concious.

I've been on US based woodworking BB's were this is the case, and they are boring :( .

Everytime someone posts they have to try to cover their bottoms from all directions, so as not to be repremanded on safety issues.

That said, if we did compile a list of things to watch-out for when using dangerous tools, and keep it handy for learners or first time buyers/users, that may not be so bad.

IMHO (In My Humble Opinion)

Ben.

[Eastie]

It's a fair idea for ease of use but it's not an idea that I would like to see happen.

Aside from issues that relate to opinions/advice and civil liabilities for such actions/ommission (which is a realy grey area), health and safety can be as boring as bat **** - so I say keep spreading it around in the context of all of the forums rather than concentrating it all in one place.

Another issue is that from time to time someone will jump in after a few posts on a topic to add a safety/risk concern/observation or relate to a specific incident, so looking through a dedicated safety forum may not give you as full a picture as you may get when doing an advanced search on the topics you're interested in.

Eastie
(aka - Mark, Safety Advisor to a big building mob + PhD OHS student - don't ask why :rolleyes: )

Last edited to remove surname so as no one will look me up and rob me workshop :( I know they're watching, and they follow you too!

[bitingmidge]

Great advice Eastie,

WH&S is so boring it sends everyone to sleep and that's exactly when they fall into the beetroot peeler.

Keeping the stuff spread through the whole shooting match is the best way of keeping it top of mind I think.

As an aside, I walked in on one of the staff in our sandwich shop the other night and found him fooling around with the Vegetable Slicer.

I fired them both! ;)

Cheers,

P

[ozwinner]

Most of us have been injured, some severely, and some killed by the tools we use in woodworking every day. Yeah, I remember the last time I was killed, it was a real bummer, and sooooo heavy man. :p :p ( Said in my best Neill, from the Young Ones voice. )

Whhooooooo, Al the ghost. :eek:

[Sturdee]

Another aspect to consider is that if there is a special H & S forum and there is no warning against a particular operation.

What would a new member, and new to woodworking, do if he can't find a warning in this forum? If there is no warning would he consider something to be a safe procedure? Would it not be better to recommend a full search of the whole board?

As such I think it is better not to have a separate forum.


Peter.

[outback]

I come here to talk wood, and anything else which distracts me. I hate OH & S, Its all crap. If people used their brains and some sense I wouldn't have to spend a frigging great fortune every year remodelling, or buying new machinery to make it safe for idiots that work for me. And another thing my insurance premium wouldn't resemble a phone number, even though there has never been a compo claim made. I only employ a few people on a casual basis, but it costs me a bloody fortune.
I can only dream about the expense to other employers.

i will now leave the soapbox and let Robbo do some editing. :mad:

[Kev Y.]

OH&S may be considered crap, and most of us are able to apply a little bit of common sense to our hobby/ocupation, but unfortunatly there are some out there that prove the old saying that "common sense isn't all that common"

I am not too sure we need a OH&S forum here, there are various sites which cater for that already.

Kev :o

[rsser]

What a bunch of misanthropes!

Be good to poll all the guys who can't do woodwork anymore because the info on how to avoid injuries wasn't readily available. Trouble is that they're not logging on anymore!

Anyway, it doesn't need to be a forum; just a collection of posts with all the usual disclaimers. Just add bad wood habits to bad woods.

Ern

[outback]

What a bunch of misanthropes!

Mum I think he swore at me!


Misanthrope? well not actually everyone, just idiots who can't take responsibilty for there own stupidity.

[silentC]

I just want to know how you've been allowed to keep that Avatar as long as you have :eek:

[Grunt]

I think the Health and Safety Forum would just confuse those who looked. If you read any of the threads on Dust Collection or Table Saw Safety you'll get contradictory advice from people who all believe that they are right.




I just want to know how you've been allowed to keep that Avatar as long as you have :eek:
Are those women pregnant with outtie belly buttons? I can't really tell with the size of the Avatar.

[bitingmidge]

Are those women pregnant with outtie belly buttons?
I think they are Liz and the nettie team holding their new "Red Dot" sponsored balls for an advertising shoot.

P

[ozwinner]

I just want to know how you've been allowed to keep that Avatar as long as you have :eek:
Maybe 'cause Robbo is on holiday?

Al

[DarrylF]

My vote - maybe we do need an OH&S forum, so all the preachy stuff can be safely separated from the real information so I don't have to read it :)

Safety information is a good thing. Especially when it's not readily apparent how to protect yourself. BUT I think many people react against the preachy, pedantic self-importance of many of those who teach & enforce OH&S. Nobody wants to live in a nanny state. Nobody wants to be wrapped in cotton wool and nagged every time they poke their head out.

I nailed myself with a chisel the other weekend. Now it looks very much like I'll have to have my thumb opened up & a tendon re-attached. Was it my fault? Yes. Did I do the wrong thing? Yes. Do I know what I did & why it was wrong? Yes. Do I know how to avoid it in future? Yes. Do I need to be preached at? NO.

I broke my left shoulder in 3 places, dislocated my right shoulder, broke 3 ribs, broke my front tooth & my nose, tore the cartlidge in my right knee, tore all the ligaments across the outside of my right ankle, sprained both ankles several times, dripped burning molten plastic on my finger, cut, scraped or burned all of my fingers & both hands several times - and a bunch of other injuries at various times through my life. Sometimes my fault, sometimes not.

You know when I felt the worst about getting hurt? When some a$$ho!e decided to start preaching at me about how I shouldn't have done what I did, how I really should be more careful and on and on and on.

He says, throwing the cat amongst the pigeons :)

/rant off.

[outback]

I kept my avatar for about 4 days. Shane helped me change it to something else, I believe the new one ( which I'll keep for a while, has something to say :D .
The reason for the change?
Dunno something 'bout Oh&S, sore eyes or stiff necks maybe :D :D

[rodm]

Slightly off topic but worth a read. Extract from http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000471.html
The Passing of Tom Emmett
[excerpted from John M. Browning, American Gunmaker, by John Browning and Curt Gentry. © 1964 by the Browning Co. and Curt Gentry.]
The Brownings depended on Tom Emmett for all odd jobs, either at the store or in their homes. He professed no specialized skill but would tackle any job and get it done. On this day he was up on a stepladder near the ceiling of the shop, by the line shaft, taking measurements. His job kept him near the shaft for so short a time that he did not ask to have the power shut off. Nobody paid any attention to what he was doing, except John. He remarked to Ed, “Tom shouldn’t be working up there with the power on.” Ed looked over his shoulder and said, “Oh, he’ll be through in a minute, and I need the lathe.” It happened just then, while John was looking straight at Tom.
Emmett had his coat off and his vest unbuttoned. Intent on his work, trying to reach too far with his ruler, he draped an edge of his vest on the whirling shaft. There was a space of only about eighteen inches between shaft and ceiling, and he went whirling through head-first, in a horrible blur of sound and motion. John yelled at the top of his voice, “Shut off the power!” and started running toward Tom, from whom he was separated by the length of the room. One of the brothers ran for the nearest doctor.
The shaft stopped. Tom, no longer in the grip of centrifugal force, unwound toward the floor and landed with a jolt on his feet. Since he had gone through head-first, his heavy felt hat was rammed down over his eyes. That, a suit of red underwear, and shoes completed his attire. His shredded apparel flapped on the shaft. He staggered to and fro. Every hand in the place reached out to help, but he bumped into a bench, clutched a vise, and remained upright. He had to hold on with both hands; even so, his tendency to stagger nearly pulled him loose. Someone thoughtfully pulled his hat off for him.
The doctor arrived in a matter of minutes, and a space was cleared on a workbench. Everybody contributed a coat to be spread for cover, and Tom was lifted up bodily and stretched out for the doctor’s examination. As that man, having heard the tale quickly told, went over Tom inch by inch, he grew more and more incredulous. Now and then, he glanced up at the clean spot on the ceiling, shook his head, and muttered. He prodded and twisted muscles and joints, asking from time to time, “That hurt, Tom?” And Tom would say, “No, nothing to speak of.” “And that?” “Well, maybe a little, not much.” Up and down, and around the ribs, and up again to the neck. The doctor gave particular attention to Tom’s back. “That hurt?” after a series of prods. “Well,” Tom said, “that’s kinda funny. Had a little backache when I got up this morning. Did a lot of lifting yesterday. But it seems to be gone now.”
Finally, the doctor said, mystified, with almost a trace of disgust, “Not even a skinned knuckle.” He glanced again at the clean spot on the ceiling. “How many times did Tom spin through there?”
“Must have been at least fifty times,” someone guessed.
“I don’t believe it!”
“Oh, yes I did, Doc!” Tom protested. “Yes, I did.”
Smoke as it would, the little engine never succeeded in covering the traces of Tom’s passing. The spot gradually darkened with the years, but as long as the shop stood, it was distinct against the black that surrounded it. Tom had given the spot such a high polish that the grime did not easily adhere to it.

If you are not familiar with line shaft machinery here is a photo

[adrian]

OK, I get the point. Safety is "boring" and the only people who have accidents are the ones who deserve it because they didn't use "common sense" and the accident was probably unavoidable anyway.
If the above posts are any indication maybe the moderators should take a look at the entire site and take out any posts that offer advice on using any tools and machinery because any incomplete advice may lead to a law suit. Then we could all log into the manufacturers web sites after looking through the dozen or so sanitised posts that are left on the Woodworking Forum.
What the hell do we log onto this site for if not to seek and give advice.

[ozwinner]

Take a look at this and see what I meen. :eek:


http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=63045#post63045

Cheers, Al the boring :(

[silentC]

It is interesting to read peoples views on this stuff. I suppose there are a couple of points to be made.

From the point of view of the newcomer, there are a lot of lessons to be learned when it comes to what is safe practice and what is not. Sticking your head into a drum sander is an unsafe practice. That should be obvious to everyone (with the possible exception of Eastie). However, there are plently of other unsafe practices that are not so obvious. It may not even occur to someone who has just unpacked their new GMC router that the thing, if used incorrectly, can be a whirly thingy of death and destruction. Does everyone that buys a $39.99 special from Bunnies know that there is a right and wrong direction in which to feed material into the cutter? (Let's not get into climb cuts). The salesperson certainly wouldn't have mentioned it. They probably don't even know themselves.

On the other hand, I think a few people do get a bit carried away with beating the safety drum. I've even seen the words 'foolish', 'irresponsible', 'dumb', and 'stupid' used by posters to describe certain practices that have been discussed on this forum. There are plenty of experienced woodworkers here who use 'advanced' techniques. Some of these might be risky but it's a risk you take with your eyes open. No-one wants someone telling them they are stupid for doing it.

Leaving aside the question of legal liability, the issue may be looked at as whether or not you feel comfortable telling someone it's OK to do it. Or even that you do it yourself. If I get on here and say "hey, I use my tablesaw all the time with no guard on it" that's fine for me but what if someone reads that post and gets complacent as a result. Am I worried about getting sued? Not really - but am I worried that as a result of my remarks someone gets hurt?

So from my point of view, it's not so much what you say but what you don't say. The official line is safety first. What goes on behind closed doors is my business. That said, having a place for newcomers to ask about this stuff is probably not a bad idea. We all know the rules, even if we break them from time to time. The idea is you learn the rules, then you break them. Not the other way around.

[mmmmbeeeeer]

A slightly different idea might be to have a forum for dust collection etc. There definitely seems to be both plenty of posts and active interest in this topic at least (and I don't find it boring - lots of regular to this site have posted extremely valuable advice and heaps of intersting ideas).

I would have liked to have one place to go for all things dust related whilst looking for info about setting my system up.

Cheers,

Pete

[kiwigeo]

We need to fully cover ourselves so heres what we do.

1. We have a hazardous substance warning sign posted on the log in window and underneath that we have a 100 page legal spiel that everyone has to read everytime they log in.
2. before logging on for the first time every new member has to download a pdf of a huge liability waiver document, get it signed by both their parents, their lawyer, a police officer and their local JP and fax it back to Robbo.
3. All members must wear full personal protective equipment while logged into the BB.....earmuffs, hard hat, safety glasses and gloves. People working on PC's must have full dust extraction kit fitted to their keyboards (people with Macs are exempt).

:)

[outback]

3. All members must wear full personal protective equipment while logged into the BB.....earmuffs, hard hat, safety glasses and gloves

I always use very personal protective equipment, if ya's know what I mean. ya never know where you lot have been :D