Buying your 1st Welder........where to start?

[NewLou]

Gidday:D

Well as a newborn tradie lookin to learn how to weld one of the 1st things that comes to mind is I need to get my hands on a welder so I can practice practice practice!

Lets face it If you want to master anything U gotta live it; learn it n do it! Over n over n over until its mastered and becomes second nature!

Heres what i found............. If u dont know anything about Welding this is daunting! There are a number of different processes Involved in Welding Metals some of which include:

SMAW - Shielded metal arc welding
MIGW - Metal Inert Gas welding
TIGW - Tungsten Inert Gas Welding

The above being just a few examples of the many processes associated with welding!

It stands to reason to learn about Welding and its associated processes before making any firm decisions about what kind of Welder you want to buy. Theres too ways I've found are excellent means of achieving this end.

Asking the Experts (Blokes that have been Welding for 10yrs plus) and researching on the Internet (Theres some excellent resources out there)

Heres some great places to start:

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/basicelec/
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/improving-your-skills/
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/list.asp

Once you get an idea of what weldings about and what you want to do then u can start nutting out the means to achieve these goals. I annoyed the hell outta my TAFE teachers asked questions & for advise; and tried to find some mentors right here on the forum.

Remember the only silly questions are the ones you don't ask and experience is a wonderful resource to tap into. For me i found it all boils down to a couple of things worth considering:

1. How much you have to spend
2. What you want to achieve with the unit you choose to buy
3. How often your likely to be using the unit you choose for its given purpose

Be great to hear about what other forum members reckon of this one!..................I'll share where my journey lead me in my next post.

REgards Lou:D

[peter_sm]

For car panel work, a MIG of minimum150A, preferable 170A. More individual power settings make life easier.

[BobL]

Sure it's sensible to ask around but one can collect all the information and ask all the experts but there's nothing gonna beat a good old "suck it and see". Fortunately getting started is not all that difficult. I tell people who ask me (not that I know that much :D) to buy a $100 welder, a $50 angle grinder and some decent PPE. Get some old bed frames from the hard rubbish pick up and start practicing. When you get stuck "ask someone". Once they have mastered stick welding, then think about what they really want to do and take it from there. Most of the folks I have advised this way are now WAY better than me. The only guy that didn't take this advice about 5 years ago, bought a $1200 welder that he has used a couple of times to fix his trailer and he is still talking about how he is going to do this and that with it. . . .

[specialist]

buy a $100 welder, a $50 angle grinder and some decent PPE. Get some old bed frames from the hard rubbish pick up and start practicing. When you get stuck "ask someone". Once they have mastered stick welding, then think about what they really want to do and take it from there.

:iagree: Learn the basic process first, then graduate to the other harder types of welding if that is what you need

Robert

[Wild Dingo]

IM NO EXPERT!!!

BUT... I disagree with the $100 and go for it thought process... maybe its just me but buying a cheep unit isnt the best way to go... for anything!... okay you dont want to go over the top and spent 1200 either but to start in welding you should be looking at a good stick welder say around the 3 - 400 mark shell out for a GOOD helmet and toss the bastard that comes with it get a supply of sticks some gauntlets (good leather ones) and an apron... basic ppe in my book and should be supplied by the supplier as a part of their duty of care... one of my pet peeves

IM NO EXPERT!!!

What I did was to buy a stick welder years ago a good solid one as I recall it cost around 500 big buggar on wheels heavy as all hell but a ripper of a unit... it started the ball rolling for me and was what I needed at that time and for a few years after until I sold it for the same amount I paid for it... kept its value back then


I AM NO EXPERT!!

Earlier this year I decided I needed another welder... this time I did some serious research into the different welders... and although I had at the begining NO IDEA whatever the differences between arc tig and mig... I decided to go up to the mig... Im not sure that its going to be EVERYTHING I ever need in a welder but for me it will probably do anything I wish over the coming years... I am yet to buy or hire a bottle of the Argon to give that a whirl and have been using just the gasless wire while I learn and experiment

I am however NOT AN EXPERT

I just dont hold any trust whatever of the cheep and nasty 100 or less welders! They look dangerous to me... just like the bloody helmets that come with ANY welder even CIG... that is the one peice of advice that should be PUSHED here and anywhere else... throw the helmet that comes with the welder IN THE BIN!!

I wrote and complained to CIG about their helmets that come with their machines 3 months ago and as yet Im still waiting for a response :~

[joe greiner]

Boyoboy, am I NOT an expert! I've done a wee bit of "welding" with a mate's gasless wire-feed, and didn't burn down his shed at least. 200% agreement about the cardboard pos "shield" that comes with the gear.

Here's a link for a fairly comprehensive tutorial I found on stick welding:

http://www.aussieweld.com.au/arcwelding/index.htm

Lots of info on theory, practice, and safety. There's 32 screens you can save to your compu-duh-r for later examination. Save As "*mht" to keep pages intact without loose reference files scattered around.

Bed frames (YMMV): OK for practice or incidental odds and sods. But I was told by a retired welding instructor that their metallurgy isn't suitable for serious load-carrying. They're also a PITA to drill, except with cobalt bits.

Joe

[BobL]

I am however NOT AN EXPERT

I just dont hold any trust whatever of the cheep and nasty 100 or less welders! They look dangerous to me... just like the bloody helmets that come with ANY welder even CIG... that is the one peice of advice that should be PUSHED here and anywhere else... throw the helmet that comes with the welder IN THE BIN!!

I wrote and complained to CIG about their helmets that come with their machines 3 months ago and as yet Im still waiting for a response :~

So are we upset about the helmet or the welder :wink:

If you look at my post I did say buy some decent PPE!

I've taken a few cheap and expensive stick welders apart in my time. There's not that much to them, they're basically a big transformer. The more expensive ones have a bigger transformer, some have added circuitry and maybe cooling (but in one way that's just more to go wrong). There is nothing inherently unsafe about the cheaper ones if they are used according to instructions. A common mistake is buying a $100 welder and expecting to weld 1/2" steel plate with it. No one starting out learning should be starting on with 1/2" steel plate - that's where and old bed frame is a better choice.

It all really depends what you want to do and your attitude to tool purchase. Unlike ww tools I have much less of an attachment to metal working tools as to me they are just a means to an end. Of course if you have a block or a farm or a business with some heavy duty action in mind then your decisions will also probably be different. But if you are a suburban home handyman just starting out you can do a sheet load of stuff with a $100 welder.

Even if you have some idea about what you're doing the $100 welder has some virtues. I had a beaut Copper Core CIG 140A welder I paid $160 for about 30 years ago (that's probably equivalent to $500 today). I used this welder to learn and then fixed up and made heaps of things with. When it finally died about 2 years ago I had to decide about what to replace it with. I already have access to all manner of welders at work and at BILs place so just needed to have something in my shed to do small things with. The $100 welder I decided on has been fine. So far I have made a portable campfire-BBQ, a pair of low saw horses, this small mill (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=46980), rails and steel bits for the BIL mill (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=569672&postcount=35), a resaw rig for a TS (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=48534), and countless other big and small fixes.

Yes the $100 welder is somewhat on the flimsy side given the amount of use I have put it through but if it dies tomorrow I figure I have easily got my money's worth from it.

Cheers

[BobL]

Bed frames (YMMV): OK for practice or incidental odds and sods. But I was told by a retired welding instructor that their metallurgy isn't suitable for serious load-carrying. They're also a PITA to drill, except with cobalt bits.


My metal working bench is made from a bed frame - I think it was the 2nd thing I made when I got my first welder in 1978 so the welds on it are not what you would call pretty. The bench is still going strong and for many years supported a drill press, and I cannot recall how much battering and bashing it has suffered. I don't recall having any problems drilling it either. Maybe oiur Aussie bed frames are different than yours? :D

[joe greiner]

My metal working bench is made from a bed frame - I think it was the 2nd thing I made when I got my first welder in 1978 so the welds on it are not what you would call pretty. The bench is still going strong and for many years supported a drill press, and I cannot recall how much battering and bashing it has suffered. I don't recall having any problems drilling it either. Maybe oiur Aussie bed frames are different than yours? :D

Could be. Hence the "YMMV." The ones here are cold rolled sheet metal about 1/8" thick; punched for rivets, not drilled or welded. Cold bending tends to harden in addition to the sheet rolling process. I've only had one weld fail, but more likely my technique than anything else. I think the instructor was referring to big bad overhead loads, like an engine lift. Could be he was also a bit of a purist.

Joe

[BobL]

Could be. Hence the "YMMV." The ones here are cold rolled sheet metal about 1/8" thick; punched for rivets, not drilled or welded. Cold bending tends to harden in addition to the sheet rolling process. I've only had one weld fail, but more likely my technique than anything else. I think the instructor was referring to big bad overhead loads, like an engine lift. Could be he was also a bit of a purist.

Joe

That makes sense. The frame I used was so old it still had cast iron rod and knuckle bedhead connectors. Maybe its my over-engineering gene kicking in, but I wouldn't consider using any standard 1/8" steel angle for an engine lift. I'd be starting at 5 or probably 6 mm

The last modern bed I fixed was my son's and that was welded rectangular hollow steel frame with 100,, wide corrugated metal cross slats - what a POS! I had to weld about 1/3 of the slats back on as they had cracked at 2 x 5 mm long welds (more like tacks) used to hold the slats on.

[Chris Parks]

Lou is asking the question from a different perspective to most other people. He is learning a trade and will use it as a professional, will learn welding in a formal setting and quickly. he will also be doing stuff no handyman would have the need or the skills to do. So Lou, ask your tradies and see what they say, you will most probably be using 3 phase at work and when you experience single phase you will wonder what hit you. I would buy the most expensive used welders I could find if it were me but I have 3 phase and it is much better. It might be best to hang off for a bit to see what you need as your views will change as you learn.

[mrstevo]

One good way to get some practice in is to find someone who needs some hardfacing done, a farmer or contractor etc. Hardfacing is a good way to get used to running consistent beads of weld, in many different positions and looks of deposited weld is of little importance. Its a great way to get practice, help someone out and do something that will be of benefit, instead of just sticking something together for the sake of it.

Cheers,
Steve

[billbeee]

Lou,
I agree with Dingo, a cheap welder is an abomination. More so when you are learning, because you tend to blame yourself. You have not got the experience to know that you are pushing a cheapie beyond it's limits. Some of them just shut down when you exceed the duty cycle but most just give you less amps and you are frigging about with adjustments all the time.

If I was starting again I'd look for a good second hand one if I had only had a couple of hundred bucks to spend.

When I bought my Air Liquid Presto 165 inverter (single phase stick welder) a few years ago I paid more than $100 extra for a set of decent leads for it. Wouldn't take the leads supplied with it out of the shop.

I learned with a stick but I have a mig for thinner stuff, (steel wall frames) and I use flux core wire all the time (no gas).

Funny enough for hobby stuff (making recumbent bikes) I enjoy gas welding. That is the basic and should be the first way to learn how to weld.

Steve, I'm not to sure about learning with hard facing rods, they are the easiest to use, you start patting yourself on the back for a good job, then when you have to go onto proper rods again your welds are like crap.

Cheers
Bill

[Rossluck]

NewLou, see if there are any TAFE hobby courses in Wagga where they can teach you some of the basics of welding. I'm self taught and it's not good. I'm a bit hit and miss. You really need some lessons in: setting up the welder properly for the metals that you're welding, and the travel speed and technique.

So far as a welder is concerned, I'd be going for a small MIG of a good brand (WIA, CIG, Lincoln, Miller....) or a small arc welder (same story, good brand).

But in the end being able to weld is more important than the type of welder.

[Marc]

All good advise given in good faith.

However all talk about buying this or that. If I did not know how to weld at all, I would not start buying a welder.
I would go either to a metal workshop willing to let me have a go and a yarn (not easy, insurance and all that) or ... go to an evening course at Tafe or similar. Learn the basics for very little money and talk with the teacher to death about what is best to buy and what not to. There will be 20 people talking in unison about the same subject.
You are bound to:
Learn to stick weld.
Know exactly which equipment to buy.
Avoid costly mistakes.

All for...what? $70 for 8 lessons?
Money well spent.

PS
I use to drive an old AJS when I was 20.
At 50 I thought I may buy a nice BMW and drive around the countryside.
So I did the course for motorcycling driving that is compulsory this days.
After finished the course and with my certificate in my hand I realized I actually hate 2 wheel motorcycles.
(Looking for a quad bike now. :doh:}

[Unit_01]

Gday all, would buying a GMC arc welder from bunnings be a god idea??? im a self constructed handyman and have done quite alot of MIG welding before and done a little bit of arc weldin. u guys reckon if i buy a GMC welder for 100 bucks, this machine will be good enough to learn and weld RHS with? cheers,

[Stringy]

Wow what an open question with many many answers.

The only reason that I would buy a welder in this early stage of your trade is if I was going to start working for myself. Then I would go for a multiprocess unit capable of Manual Metal Arc Welding (MMAW) Stick, Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW) Mig, Flux Core Arc Welding (FCAW) dual shield and inner shield, Submerged Arc Welding (SAW), Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (GTAW) Tig and Carbon Arc Gouging. Lotsa $'s for a power source like this and then a good wire feeder unit to suit.

Or, a 240v inverter capable of MMAW and GTAW (mild steel and stainless), there are good uns from $1,000 to $2,000.

Are you apprenticed by someone?

[Grahame Collins]

Then I would go for a multiprocess unit capable of Manual Metal Arc Welding (MMAW) Stick, Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW) Mig, Flux Core Arc Welding (FCAW) dual shield and inner shield, Submerged Arc Welding (SAW), Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (GTAW) Tig and Carbon Arc Gouging. Lotsa $'s for a power source like this and then a good wire feeder unit to suit.


The above is a completely wrong and wildly inaccurate statement.

I hate to rain on your parade Stringy, but MMAW and GMAW just for starters are completely different power sources having vastly different operating characteristics. Do the terms constant voltage and constant current have any meaning for you?

We are a very long way from seeing such a machine by virtue of the diverse applications of these processes. If by some minuscule chance I am completely wrong, give us a example of a machine that has all of the functions you mentioned.

Please do everyone the favor of not making statements about welding processes you appear to know very little about . It tends to confuse the new guys and annoy the dickens out of those do know their stuff.

Grumpy
Grahame

[Stringy]

Um well, for most of my trade (1980 on) I have been using various Lincoln DC 600's, Lincoln diesel SAM 400s, which have a little switch on the front to go from CC to CV and with addition of a good wire feeder and handpieces will run all of the processes listed, there is a problem that the DC 600 won't turn down lower than about 100 amps though, but there are ways to get around this:D! Used a couple of 500amp inverters recently as well and yep you can actually switch them from cc to cv, you can also pick them up without a crane:2tsup:.

Wow and to think I may be the only one blessed to have experienced this new teknonogy:oo:!

Betta go look for some examples I spose:C.

[barn]

I have just started loaning books from the library again.
At the moment I am reading "modern welding" (1980 edition):B.
I thought that there were about half a dozen types of welding- what an ignorant person . In this older book there are over 20 types including explosion welding, laser beam welding, friction welding and ultrasonic welding, wierd and amazing stuff.

[Grahame Collins]

would buying a GMC arc welder from bunnings be a god idea?
this machine will be good enough to learn and weld RHS with? cheers,

Hi Unit,
I agree with what BobL said.
Used within its limits this little machine will weld Rectangular hollow section sucessfully.Personally I would not ask a new guy to weld anything less than 2.4 wt and certainly not the duragal version.It your asking it to intermittently perform short welding tasks on light stock thats what it will do. If have used one of the little GMC units for half a day and found no fault with it.

For a home DIY guy it will suit for light tasks.
Don't ask it to work from a twenty meter lead and expect to weld 10mm or 12mm plate.

Most problems arise from operators not understanding the capabilities of their machines.

Grahame

[Stringy]

"OOOh" now lets have a look at a Lincoln Idealarc DC600 multi process unit.

"Designed for high productivity applications in MIG, FCAW, MMAW, TIG, SAW and carbon arc gouging"

http://www.industrysearch.com.au/Products/Multi-Process_Welder_-_Idealarc_DC-600-17847

There is also an multi process 350amp inverter, but if one of these units is to be considered then I would'nt go below 500amp for the gouging capability.

Suprisingly the DC600 is a common machine and I have seen them sold second hand for around $2,000, so definetly not out of reach for contractor, 63amp/3phase power supply is about minimum though.

[Grahame Collins]

Stringy,
My aplogies
Sorry I came across a bit hard but for goodness sake its a diy board.People here are trying to get a handle on the basics .I think its our job as metals tradies to steer them on to something useful techniques and applicable equipment
They do not yet make a machine that has all of the processes you mentioned.

I may well be heading towards dinosaur status but still understand my machines.

The Miller machines came close for a while but I understand they suffered a lot of board problems and wiring problems for a while.I haven't heard if that was resolved yet
Kemppi and Fronious are the companies to watch.

Grahame

[Stringy]

Graheme,

This thread was started with a very open question from what I understand to be a beginner mature age apprentice, realistic options were presented from both ends of the spectrum!

Still, after being presented with a list of processes which match the list given by myself in my original post you refuse to accept that one power source will perform all of these processes:doh:. The Lincoln site for starters shows several!

Oh well for some ignorance is bliss:rolleyes:!

Anyway back to welders:2tsup:.

[Chris Parks]

Yes, that is the problem, Lou asked a question about buying a welder suitable for use by a tradesman or someone who will be one by doing an aprrenticeship. He does not need a handyman welder, he needs a welder that will be a big step above that. I like the reply suggesting he should do an evening course to learn to weld when he is just starting an apprenticeship to do just that. Lou talk to your new workmates and tech teachers, those in the trade will advise you best. I am not convinced you need one yet at your stage of experience.

[Grahame Collins]

Stringy.
It obvious that you were right.You have my unreserved apology.
Grahame

[Wild Dingo]

So are we upset about the helmet or the welder :wink:

If you look at my post I did say buy some decent PPE!

I've taken a few cheap and expensive stick welders apart in my time. There's not that much to them, they're basically a big transformer. The more expensive ones have a bigger transformer, some have added circuitry and maybe cooling (but in one way that's just more to go wrong). There is nothing inherently unsafe about the cheaper ones if they are used according to instructions. A common mistake is buying a $100 welder and expecting to weld 1/2" steel plate with it. No one starting out learning should be starting on with 1/2" steel plate - that's where and old bed frame is a better choice.

It all really depends what you want to do and your attitude to tool purchase. Unlike ww tools I have much less of an attachment to metal working tools as to me they are just a means to an end. Of course if you have a block or a farm or a business with some heavy duty action in mind then your decisions will also probably be different. But if you are a suburban home handyman just starting out you can do a sheet load of stuff with a $100 welder.

Even if you have some idea about what you're doing the $100 welder has some virtues. I had a beaut Copper Core CIG 140A welder I paid $160 for about 30 years ago (that's probably equivalent to $500 today). I used this welder to learn and then fixed up and made heaps of things with. When it finally died about 2 years ago I had to decide about what to replace it with. I already have access to all manner of welders at work and at BILs place so just needed to have something in my shed to do small things with. The $100 welder I decided on has been fine. So far I have made a portable campfire-BBQ, a pair of low saw horses, this small mill (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=46980), rails and steel bits for the BIL mill (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=569672&postcount=35), a resaw rig for a TS (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=48534), and countless other big and small fixes.

Yes the $100 welder is somewhat on the flimsy side given the amount of use I have put it through but if it dies tomorrow I figure I have easily got my money's worth from it.

Cheers

:; No worries Bob :; I did say I was no expert didnt I? :q I will now shut up eh :2tsup:

[Stringy]

Grahame,

Accepted & No problem.

One of these 500amp inverters I used recently may have been a Kempi and the other was a Buffalo. The Kempi's are a popular reliable machine, with quite a few of them around this area.

56441

[Rossluck]

If only everyone in the world handled themsleves like Grahame and Stringy did in this thread there'd be few serious conflicts.

My hat is especially off to you Grahame for your decent apology. :2tsup:

[peter_sm]

I just purchased a Weldmaster 195, and it will more than adequately suit MY needs. I do primarily automotive body fabrication, panel, chassis and customisation work. It has 12 power settings, spot timer and adjustable trim pot on circuit board for burn back adjustment. This along with a reasonable industry product name, price and support have made my decision. Differs for many.

[NewLou]

Gidday:D

SOme great contrabutions to the thread thx fellas great to see the metalworkers chewin the fat over this one in such a civilised manner:p! Before continuing I really want to let readers know that this has just been my experience in my journey buying a welder as a tradie to suit my goals & Needs. Theres some great experience n opionions here so would love to keep the ball rolling!

I will add that at this stage there really is no need for me to buy a welder Im being well trained and have access to some great gear! BUT I just love trying to become the best I can be at things so made a choice to get a Rig that I can not only rack more weld time up on BUT also can be used down the track by me in industry or as a asset to my own business!

Dont expect cheap gear to cut the mustard in the long term. All the tradies I spoke to endend their speil with ................good luck if ur going down that path. No doubt though the cheaper units serve the occasional users needs & expectations well!

For those interested in the high end industrial market relating to welders in my conversations with welding journeymen the "European" Manufactorers are presently considered the leaders in welding technology. Brand names like:

Fronius
Kemppi

Are highly regarded Additionally theres the Big American Manufactorers like:

Miller
Lincoln Electric

Which are also well regarded but are generally considered a little behind the European makers in cutting edge technology. There are other makers of fine gear BUT these appeared to be the most mentioned brand names suggested to me to consider when I was asking around.

There respective Websites can be found here:

Fronius:
http://www.smenco.com.au/fronius.htm

Kemppi
http://www.kemppi.com/

Miller
http://www.millerwelds.com/

Lincoln Electric
http://www.lincolnelectric.com.au/

Regards Lou

[NewLou]

Gidday:D

Im hoping that other welders regular to the metalwork forum will post about what they have bought in regards to a welding Rig and why.............from bargain basement cheapo to heavy industrial Rig..........

It I'd be great too find out what leads to the 'final decision'. For many users this will be cost but hopefully we'll be able to provide a guide for readers to help them make a choice and identify the best units on offer across the range.

For me my background in woodworking n handtools attracted me to the TIG process which requires a lot of practice and finesse to master. Tig welding from what I have learnt is the most versatile capable of welding more metals and metal alloys than any other welding process.

I wanted a unit that could take advantage of this be easily portable and enable me to do on site work (In the near future) with as much versatility as possible. It had to do stainless and be able to weld up to 1/4 inch aluminum. I was lucky in that I had a beefy budget from Handtool and Machinery sales right here on the forum................. Around 6K.

In asking around I generally found that my TAFE teachers and tradie m8's tend to suggest getting a unit that suits what u do. Personally i like to get High end units (The best i can afford at the time) and grow into them as my skill level and needs change/improve.

To date this philosophy has worked for me well and never allowed me to quickly build skills to my tools capacity and get stuck by there limitations. There are potential pitfalls to this but im mad as a cut snake n rarely respect money enough or my present circumstances to worry to much about it...............to say the least my approach to life is not conservative!:2tsup:

So when a m8 buys a new tool or piece of machinery my 1st question isnt "how much did she cost" ITS........................"So what can this baby do"!

:D this lead me down the path to my final decision. I went with a high end industrial unit. The Miller Dynasty 200DX! shes an inverter weighs about 20kg has autoline technology that allows me to plug into any powersource from 115 to 460 volts and pumps out a respectable 200AMPS.

She also acts a a powersource for stick welding. I figure I got the most versatile 15-20kg Inverter unit on the market.........To say the least I'm wrapped and really happy with the final decision.

Regards Lou:2tsup:

[BobL]

Lou, lookin good!! :2tsup: Can see some cool stuff coming out with that unit to work with.

Cheers