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View Full Version : Wanted Petrobond info.-supplier



impalabazz
25th Mar 2007, 10:16 PM
G'day you blokes.

This is my first post on this forum. I stumbled across the WW forums by accident last week and was pleasantly surprised that it is Australian and has great content.

I'm not much of a woodworker, although I have adapted over the years particularly with Gunstock work in my Gun repair days, 1975-1999. Due to the political nature of this work I now earn a living in other fields.

I'm looking for a supplier of Petrobond, preferably in SA but anywhere in Australia. I am wanting to buy 25-50 kg..

I have contacted quite a few companies that sell various casting sands etc. but have come up empty on Petrobond. Back some years ago there was a series of articles in "Budget Buildups", a car magazine which covered the product and a supplier in Melbourne. I contacted them soon after reading that article and was advised that they nolonger imported and sold it. I believe a company called DYNAREF or similar now imports it but you have too buy it in big quantities like 500Kg plus.

My intentions are to venture into the world of small parts casting, particularly aluminium for my own auto restoration needs. From what I read, Petrobond and other similar oil and clay impregnated casting sands are ideal for beginners and provide very good surface finish.

I'm hoping that there will be members on this forum that use or have used this product or similar products and may have contacts were I can buy some. It is readily available in the USA, but freight is prohibative.

Thanks for your time.......Barry.

Barry_White
25th Mar 2007, 10:37 PM
Hi Barry

Have you thought about looking at aluminium foundries and see if they would sell small amounts to you.

impalabazz
26th Mar 2007, 08:21 AM
G'day Bazza,

Thanks for the reply. Yes have gone down that avenue with some of the local foundrys. All of them are VERY guarded with there techniques and are not interested in supplying the product. Many foundry's are using regular "green" casting sands, not petrobond type products. I can get all manner of "green" sand, just not petrobond in small quantities.

I'll keep looking. Maybe if there are other people on this forum looking for this product it maybe worthwhile buying a large quantity and dividing it up.

Other than that I'll just have to "bite the bullet" and import some.

Cheers...........Barry.

watson
26th Mar 2007, 08:44 AM
G'day Barry,
The last known supplier I had was
Arnot & Guy
Foundry Suppliers
10 Boileau Street
Keysborough Victoria
0397986477

impalabazz
26th Mar 2007, 08:47 AM
G'day watson,

Thanks for the reply. OK I'll give 'em a try.:)

Cheers..........Barry.

Barry_White
26th Mar 2007, 08:57 AM
Barry

Here is a couple of links in our own forum about Petrobond.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=32232


http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=23613

impalabazz
26th Mar 2007, 09:35 AM
G'day Bazza,

Thanks for the links. :2tsup: I found the latter link last week but not the forma. I will contact Cast Metal Services in Brisbane. As it happens I will be in North Eastern NSW over Easter and the week after visiting my sister in Barraba. If CMS have got the petrobond I might be able to get it freighted their.

Excellent you blokes.......I'm glad I have joined this forum.

Cheers...........Barry.

impalabazz
26th Mar 2007, 10:53 AM
G'day again,

I have contacted Arnott & Guy in Victoria. They won't supply outside Victoria. :~

They advised contacting Cast Metal Services in SA, (which I did last year) and they can now order in the petrobond in small quantities. This is supplied from QLD warehouse. I have ordered 25Kg. for starters.

Thanks for your help...........Barry:roll:

Big Shed
26th Mar 2007, 03:00 PM
Do they need an export licence?:D

Gra
26th Mar 2007, 03:40 PM
My intentions are to venture into the world of small parts casting, particularly aluminium for my own auto restoration needs.

Hay Barry,

What you restoring??

watson
26th Mar 2007, 04:24 PM
G'day Barry,
Is the 25Kg a mix already???
Love to know the price....being a nosy bugger.

simso
26th Mar 2007, 11:07 PM
Hey barry, ive been down this path before as well for restoration of old cars. I only used green sand for the first couple of casts, but in the end I found it easier to machine the item up rather than cast it to start with. Molten aluminium is bloody hot and splatters itself everywhere. Also to make a cast you need the original. Have you considered getting a cheap milling machine
Steve

China
27th Mar 2007, 12:37 AM
Have you tried Resin Sands 8346 7429, if they don't have it I'm sure they will have an equivelent product

impalabazz
27th Mar 2007, 12:54 AM
G'day All,
Thanks for all the replys.

Yeah.....BigShed, hehehe.....:U don't know about the export licence out of Victoria but I suspect it's a state by state sale arrangement with however imports the petrobond. No cuttin' each others lunch so to speak.:;

Watson, the cost of petrobond in Victoria is $3.40 per Kg. plus GST, thats through Arnott and Guy. In SA (Cast Metal Services) its $3.85 per Kg.. It's premixed and packed in 25Kg containers.

Simso, I already have a Mill Drill (Taiwanese "First" brand) and one day I'll be able to afford a proper vertical mill along the lines of a small bridgeport or similar......like every machinist wants. Yes I have made and still make parts on the mill but I'd like to try my hand at casting parts, like badges etc.. Also I remanufacture Throttle Bodies and I'm investigating making these also. Plus many other ideas. A case of too many projects so little time. :no:

Gra, My wife and I are currently rebuilding a 1966 Ford F350. This will become our shop truck. Currently rebuilding a 351C for it plus adapting a Toyota Dyna 5 speed gearbox using a CRS bellhousing. You can view it's progress on the Ford Truck Enthusiast Forum on this link: http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/displayalbum.php?albumid=24564

Prior to this truck appearing on the scene last September I was building a 1927 Ford T Roadster Hot Rod project. You can view it's progess, or lack of it in the last 12 months on this link. http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/journal.php?s=&journalid=2182&action=view

Once the truck is completed later this year, I'll get back to the HotRod project.

We also have a 64 Chev Impala Convertible which was saved from the crusher in 1977. Currently we have 7 vehicles between the two of us. You might call us "revheads".

Thanks again...........Barry.

impalabazz
27th Mar 2007, 01:10 AM
Hey Gra,

Some of those Graham Paiges look like good Hot Rod projects !!........:; just kidding.

China, Yes I did call Resin Sands some time ago and they had not heard of Petrobond or any Oil and bentonite formula casting sand. That contact was some 12 months ago and the situation maybe different now. This was the case with Cast Metal Services in SA. Some 12 months ago they would only supply Petrobond if I bought a large quantity, like 500Kg..

Cheers.........Barry.

Beerbotboffin
27th Mar 2007, 07:07 AM
Hi Impalabaz,

I posted the original reply that was referred to earlier.

I use petrobond, and source it through CMS right here in Brissy.

Petrobond (more correctly oil bonded sand - Petrobond is a brand name) is definately the go, especially for non-ferrous casting. It holds detail VERY well (though not as well as lost wax or investment castings), it's reasonably economical, doesn't dry out & gives a very good surface finish.

CMS sell it pre-mixed or as seperate components (binder catalyst etc), and it comes in a nice, resealable bucket with a decent handle (please note this is NOT an ad for CMS, just my experience!)

BUT WAIT! There is another option. As I said before, it is oil bonded sand. Another option is to make your own. There is a recipe available for a version called K-Bond, which was developed by Kent State University in the US
If anyone is interestefd, let me know - will post it here or you can just google it. Some of the componentscan be had cheaply through ebay.

Simso, the reason that you were getting spatering everywhere (luckily not an explosion) is too high a moisture content in your green sand - a problem which oil bonded sands do not have.

IMHO, milling parts from billet is fine if you have one or two, but casting really is the way to go. You can produce parts that require only minimal machining. And no, you don't need the original part to make a casting - you make what is called a pattern, and produce your parts from there. Piece of you know what.

Hope this helps,
Frosty

impalabazz
27th Mar 2007, 08:06 AM
G'day Beerbotboffin,

Thanks for your input. Yes I have read both threads referring to Petrobond. Didn't know if I should contact you direct or not. This product as I'm sure you are well aware, is well known in the US and there are numerous reports on it from dedicated casting sites.

I haven't heard of K-Bond. I think I'll start with the Petrobond and get some experience with all things casting, ally mostly. I'm a raw beginner with no bad habits (yet) in this field. I've got heaps of work ahead, building the furnace, making tongs and other casting specific tools and equipment, sourcing crucibles etc. and making patterns etc.. I'm looking forward to it.

Cheers.........Barry.

Beerbotboffin
27th Mar 2007, 10:03 AM
No worries Impalabazz. You are right in that the yanks (and the poms too) are into petrobond. There is quite a lot of useful stuff on the web in regards to casting.

I havn't yet tried K-bond, though plan to when the bathroom, entertainment room and a million other jobs are finished..... I have stocks of petrobond, but when that starts to deplete, I will start to experiment with K-bond.

Casting is lots of fun, and very rewarding (though I'm not sure about financially these days....) - possibly it is in niche markets.

Anyways, my advice would be to get a ceramic crucible (You will need a different crucible for each metal to avoid contamination), make some tols (tongs, skimmer, pouring ring & rammer), and build your own furnace & burner.

I would highly recommend building a waste oil burner, because whilst gas burners are quicker & easier, they are a LOT more expensive - my gas burner gets through 9kg in about 1.5-2hours at $20. Waste oil is, well, free. The other advantage of building a WVO burner is that they produce more heat, and are capable of melting metals such as cast iron.

If there is anything you'd like advice on, feel free to drop me a line.

Frosty

simso
27th Mar 2007, 10:24 AM
Ahh a person after me own heart, Did a 28 roadster about 15 years ago, wow what an eye opener that was. Box the rails in, mount centura diff ect. Ive built modified restored a few vehicles since then, jag, celica, camaro's, firebirds, ect so I know where your coming from with the ability to cast objects. As I said above however the downside is you need an original or be able to make a mold of an original ect. Bridgeport mill very nice, I used these when I was in the military bloody big ridgid things. Currently Im finishing of another camaro, well slowly
Steve

forge
27th Mar 2007, 09:23 PM
Hi Impalabaz,

There is a recipe available for a version called K-Bond, which was developed by Kent State University in the US
If anyone is interestefd, let me know - will post it here or you can just google it. Some of the componentscan be had cheaply through ebay.
Hope this helps,
Frosty
Hi,Frosty I'm interested what sort of recepie do you use for the k-bond?I seem to recall in the past i was not able to source one of the ingredients, and we ended up using green sand.
Regards,Bela

Beerbotboffin
28th Mar 2007, 12:52 AM
Hey Forge,

As I said earlier, I havn't had a chance or the need to play with K-bond (as I still have good stocks of Petrobond). However, as soon as my new gas bottle based muller is completed, and my petrobond stock depletes, I will have a crack at it.

The recipe is:
100lb (45.5kg) fine sand (the finer the sand the better the finish)
6lb (2.7kg) of bentone clay (Bentone is actually a proprietry name, and is an amine reacted bentonite clay - bentonite being a natural clay)- possible sources include paint, glue & ink manufacurers. If this sounds tricky, find a manufacturer in your area, and make friends with someone who works there......
3lbs (1.36kg) of SYNTHETIC 2 stroke motorcycle oil - there are plenty of brands available locally.
0.2lbs (100g) of methanol - Really, really easy to come by - anywhere.

Cooking (err, mixing):
blend sand and bentone clay first, then blend in the oil thoroughly. After all is blended, add methanol until the mix becomes VERY sticky.
Apparently, the mix is best left for at least a day, and becomes much easier to work after a days rest.

NOTE
normal Petrobond ( and apparently all oil bonded sands) are VERY STICKY, and stain like all BUG^&*Y. They also smoke like Tommy Raudonikis on a bender.

Hope this helps.
Frosty (beerbotboffin)

Schtoo
28th Mar 2007, 01:55 AM
Amine reacted bentonite?

Anyone out there in WWW land know a: What that is? and b: How do I make it from regular bentonite?

I have a large bag of bentonite, a hefty amount of fine sand, oil is cheap enough and methanol is on hand too. And I am not 100% happy using green sand with ally, even though I can make it work...

Wonder if regular bentonite would work ok?

Thanks for the recipe Beerbot. :)

Beerbotboffin
28th Mar 2007, 08:05 AM
Hi Schtoo,

How's Japan?

I'm not sure where to get Bentone in Japan, but Bentone is just a trade name at the end of the day. There must be someone there who sells something similar.

Bentonite clay alone would not work. The clay would have had to have been reacted with an amine, otherwise no reaction will occur, and you'd just end up with a pile of funny sand.

Just for the record, amines are (in a nutshell) a nitrogen based compound, sort of kind of like ammonia.

Frosty

forge
28th Mar 2007, 10:47 AM
Amine reacted bentonite?

Anyone out there in WWW land know a: What that is? and b: How do I make it from regular bentonite?

I have a large bag of bentonite, a hefty amount of fine sand, oil is cheap enough and methanol is on hand too. And I am not 100% happy using green sand with ally, even though I can make it work...

Wonder if regular bentonite would work ok?

Thanks for the recipe Beerbot. :)
Schtoo-its been a while but here is a link that may help:http://www3.telus.net/public/aschoepp/sand.html
Here is some info on bentonite.http://www.elementis-specialties.com/index.asp?fuseaction=Industries.detail&aid=306&sid=304&mid=16
As i understand it its used videly by a lot of different industrial processes ,paintmaking ,oil drilling,lubricants etc.
Hope this helps

jmk89
28th Mar 2007, 11:00 AM
Chemical Recyclying (http://www.chemicalrecycling.com.au/cosmetics.htm)seem to sell Bentone (as a cosmetic chemical) for $23.50 per kg.

Big Shed
28th Mar 2007, 11:39 AM
Bentonite and Bentone are not the same thing.

Bentonite is a naturally occurring reactive clay, Bentone is derived from the same thing but treated with various chemicals. It is used in paints, adhesives, greases etc as a gelling agent and sag-control agent.

Read more about Bentonite here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite

impalabazz
28th Mar 2007, 01:20 PM
:2tsup: What a bunch of "learned" and helpful blokes you lot are !. It's amazing the amount of information that has come forward on this subject from one simple question.

I'm sure I'll have more questions on casting now that it has become clear to me that there are a number of WWF members experienced in this field.

Like I said earlier.....I'm glad I've found this forum !.:)

Cheers........Barry.