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View Full Version : Electrode Poor performance and how to fix it



Grahame Collins
8th Jul 2006, 06:45 PM
I had a comment passed from a friend who should know better this week. It seems he was stick welding and and the weld deposit was not that flash.He was moaning on about the ####ty chinese electrodes. I did not pay much attention about the comment until I was welding with stick myself later in the week and was using a rather dated packet of a Brand name electrode.

Dated,I say because the packet was so old that the cardboard was decomposing.Needless to say the deposit was not looking as good as it should.Next time in town I scored some new and cheap chinese electrodes and tried them out. First class deposit.

I too needed reminding of a basic rule that stick electrodes of all types need protection from the elements.
Yes sirree unprotected stick elctrodes will absorb moisture into the flux cover and that moisture will play up in the arc and the deposit.Crikey I had only had them 9 years.


I spent some money on some PVC pipe and caps big enough to store the contents of the new packet and wrote in permanent marker what they were on them.Glued one end on and gave the other end a bit of a sand so the cap would not jam. Also chucked in the little moisture absorbent packets that come with my blood pressure meds.

Hands up, who else pays attention to electrode storage?

Grahame

Mick C.
8th Jul 2006, 07:23 PM
Another thing that i have seen a friend of mine do, is to deliberatly stick the end of the welding electrode to the welding bench top to heat the rod up to make sure that there wasnt any unwanted moisture in the rod. This was done by a high pressure gas pipeline welder, so i'm sure he knows his stuff. I guess it all depends on how badly the electrodes have been stored.

Groggy
8th Jul 2006, 07:30 PM
I spent some money on some PVC pipe and caps big enough to store the contents of the new packet and wrote in permanent marker what they were on them.Glued one end on and gave the other end a bit of a sand so the cap would not jam.What a great idea, thanks!

Groggy (who uses his welder about every nine years)

Schtoo
8th Jul 2006, 08:47 PM
Mick, I do the same thing, and the only times I get a bad electrode is when it genuinely is bad. ;) About 3 or 4 every 2kg pack I think.


I usually just drag it across a sacficial piece that's on my 'welding stand', just enough to get it started and hot. If the rod won't strike, same trick to get it to fire.

(Prolly just too lazy to make a rod box really... ;) )

Wood Butcher
8th Jul 2006, 08:51 PM
Most of the time I just do what Mick C said, But I do have some rods that I only use every blue moon (like low hydrogen and stainless) so that storage idea is a great one Grahame. Thanks!

zathras
8th Jul 2006, 09:11 PM
I've often wondered if there is any merit in storing the rods in the (beer) fridge.

Supposed to be the dryest environment I'm told (other than the cans)...

ozwinner
8th Jul 2006, 09:15 PM
low hydrogen

The devil himself invented those rods.

As for rod use if you are going to do a heap of welding with old rods just stick em in the oven for a while on a low heat, serve with a side salad.

Al :)

Grahame Collins
8th Jul 2006, 11:40 PM
Oils ain’t Oils and Electrodes aint Electrodes so to speak
For most of us most of the time is does not matter if the electrode is a bit damp, but for those where it does count,the following may help.

My comments were directed at the type of electrode that DIYers would commonly use. In any case electrodes can be abused in other ways. Have you ever had electrodes that would not strike easily? Could be that they were damaged by dropping the un opened packet on its end. This mishandling results in many electrodes being cracked or spalled in the flux cover on the starting end.I have had whole catrons ,not just boxes ,damaged in this way.

Spalled electrodes are a pain in the rrse to to strike. Usually the best way is to have a scrap striking plate to draw a long arc for a few seconds.However if the electrode/s have been moist for too long, it has degraded the flux and any amount of drying won’t restore the leached out material .A good indicator is usually a white powder like substance on the exterior. Spalling flux and rust on the wire underneath is another. Just leaving the bloody things in an open packet for a couple of months can be enough. Humid weather and moisture content in the air can be tough on them.


Pipeline welders at other professional welders would not be necessarily using the type that we commonly use as Diy. Waterpipe welders may use mild steel rods, but gas pipes may require low hydrogen electrodes.
L.H. Electrodes are required to be stored in hot boxes (when packets are opened)

The temperature is regulated to be not greater than 100◙ C.
I would sack any welder I caught doing the drying out operation by shorting the rod. LH electrodes are designed to have a minimum of moisture.Water or moisture when heated to 6000 degrees(arc temperature) breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen ,both bad things to have in a weld pool, that is supposed to be high strength.

If the electrode you are using is coded to Australian standards if it is mild steel it would read 4112 or 4113. Yank coded electrodes are 6012 and 6013 respectively
In mild steel alone there are quite a variety of electrodes available. Other countries ,I wouldn’t have a clue.

Here is a break down of mild steel electrodes types. The fist two need moisture to work. They have a very fierce penetrating arc.

4110 Cellulose based DC – electrode 2% moisture content
4111 Cellulose based AC / DC – electrode 2% moisture content

4112 General purpose positional electrode AC/ DC
4113 Flat position and fillet very smooth

4121 Semi Iron powder good bulk fill flat position only
4122 Full Iron Powder ,iron powder in flux adds to bulk fill

Reheating the damp rod may help but may not necessarily cure all of the the problem.
Check this out if you need to know more.

http://www.aussieweld.com.au/arcwelding/page16/page16.htm

Grahame

Rossluck
9th Jul 2006, 08:21 AM
I'm sure I heard somewhere that you can stick them in the oven for ten minutes before you use them. Welding electrodes are an interesting topic. I was lucky enough to have a conversation with a professional welder while I was shopping for electrodes and he suggested I buy this packet of WIA electrodes. They've been great.

Wood Butcher
9th Jul 2006, 09:05 AM
BOC have apparently reworked the formula for their rods. I got a paccket of 4112 for making the trailer for the old boy and they were fantastic. I never liked the cigweld rods but when BOC took over they have done a great job with the rods. (Although I still love the WIA 4113 blue & white stripe!!)

Grahame Collins
9th Jul 2006, 11:19 AM
Hi Woodbutcher
Great work on the trailer
Cigweld and Boc are now different companies.I understand that when they split up a few years back, there was a great deal of unpleasantness between the two.It is all about a dollar more than ever,and companies will source equipment and consumables from the most cost effective supplier.

My guess that your "new" electrodes were a another rebadge job,probably Murex from England who made excellent electrodes. As for WIA , they made a terrific electrode in the 13. When you get it right with the 13s, the slag just peels off without chipping. Because they are a General purpose electrode you can do vertical down with them. The 4112,s are different in the flux make up and are best suited.
At the moment I am using 2.5 Diam el cheapo Chinese rods I got for $23.50 for 2.5KGS.
I am not building nuclear power plants,so it does not matter.
What we have to remember in welding that its fitness for the purpose that counts ,wether its with machines machines or consumables.. When I can teach my digital camera to do macro photos ,I will do a picture series on what the stick welding defects look like and how to stop or fix them up.
Chow for now
Grahame

Schtoo
10th Jul 2006, 01:13 AM
Forget to write down the specs on the electrodes I am using right now.

Wether it would make any sense or not I don't know.

I do know that 2kg of them costs about $10 at the last check, and locally made (for here) not Chiwanese. ;)

Grahame Collins
10th Jul 2006, 02:33 AM
Schoo
I have used Kobelco from Japan and would rate therm among the very best I have used.I have not seen mild steel electrodes from them out here ,but there LB 52 U's are considered to be the standard when doing positional root run penetration beads in pressure pipe.The electrode deposit leaves an almost tig like bead. I am sure their mild steel electrodes would be up to same standard if that's the brand you happen to be using.

Cheers
Grahame

Groggy
10th Jul 2006, 10:52 AM
While this discussion has been going on I cut up some pipe, painted it and put some caps on. It took a full fifteen minutes with the extended drying time for the paint in the cold weather. I even put a small bit of rubber at each end to stop banging the rods. Overkill is my middle name :o .

Thanks again for the tip Grahame.

EDIT: Checking my electrodes shows them to be E4112, AWS A5.1 E6013 by CIGWELD (Ferrocraft 12XPs). Since I use them on a small stick welder for general purpose home use, I hope they are suitable. If not, what would you suggest?

DJ’s Timber
10th Jul 2006, 11:16 AM
I use the clear plastic tubes that the P&N turning chisels come in
I just fill up 2 or 3 tubes for each box of electrodes and seal the ones not in use with duct tape
When 1 gets empty I just start another one, That way I have 2/3 of the box sealed and 1/3 in use
It also helps to label each box so you don't get mixed up
Some of the electrodes I have, have been around for years and still look and work just like the day I bought them
I found that by dividing them up you only spoil the ones that You are using and the rest stay in pristine condition
They are also great for transporting as I found the cardboard boxes didn't like the constant transporting and would start to fall apart

Cheers DJ

Wood Butcher
10th Jul 2006, 01:19 PM
EDIT: Checking my electrodes shows them to be E4112, AWS A5.1 E6013 by CIGWELD (Ferrocraft 12XPs). Since I use them on a small stick welder for general purpose home use, I hope they are suitable. If not, what would you suggest?

Groggy, I would't have any qualms using those rods myself. The are a good general purpose rod that is suitbale for most welds I would expect you would be doing at home. I do prefer the 4113 rods for general use, but I do have a box of 12's for when I am either doing positional welding or want a bit more firey arc especially with gal coated steel.

journeyman Mick
10th Jul 2006, 02:52 PM
...............Just leaving the bloody things in an open packet for a couple of months can be enough. Humid weather and moisture content in the air can be tough on them.................

Just leaving them in an open packet for a day or so during a good wet season is enough to wreck them around here. I keep mine in a drying cabinet (large aluminium meter box with a heating element fitted) along with all my abrasives, biscuits and any other humidity sensitive stuff. I've also seen them kept in a pie warming oven turned all the way down.

Mick

Grahame Collins
10th Jul 2006, 08:11 PM
Groggy,
12 XP,s are a fine rod they are suitable for nearly everthing a light fabricator ( read home DIY bloke) could ever tackle.
They are cable of being used to perform flat welding, vertical up beads and even overhead. yes all this and more is possible on most home stick welder machines.I 'm back at school now but when I get a free momemnt I'll write up a thingy on positional welding if reader feel it's warranted.

RE comments on electrode storage
Even a old fridge withan 80 watt globe was what sufficiced a an electrode oven. Just storing them so moisture in the air can't spoil makes them last for ages.

Grahame

Groggy
10th Jul 2006, 08:32 PM
They are cable of being used to perform flat welding, vertical up beads and even overhead. yes all this and more is possible on most home stick welder machines.Really? Darn, it must be me then :o.

It's nice to know I've got the right rods since welding is really something beyond my experience base. The limited amount I've done has worked eventually: 10 mins welding, 20 mins grinding, 10 mins welding, more grinding etc. When I get a bigger shed I may do a short course for some general DIY. It's great to read this stuff though, I've learnt quite a bit reading these welding posts.

thanks

aussiecolector
10th Jul 2006, 08:39 PM
12P's are easy to get on with. I use very few though since I got the mig. Mig wire is something you want to protect from moisture, big problems if it gets rusty.

Schtoo
11th Jul 2006, 11:02 AM
Grahame, how did you know? :D

Yep, they are Kobelco and they are good, at least through the welder I have. About $100 worth and heavy. Unlike the most recent Cigweld unit I picked up. ;)

But the only real comparison of rods are random specification and freshness WIA and Cigweld rods on varying qualities of welder.

Anyways, I'll still find what it says again and let you know. Might give you some info you didn't need to know. ;)

Groggy
11th Jul 2006, 11:24 AM
I've looked at Google and Wikipedia - what do you mean by "positional" welding?

Grahame Collins
11th Jul 2006, 08:17 PM
Schoo
I made an educated guess.From what I understand Kobelco electrodes enjoy an excellent reputation and dominate most of their home market.As I said,I have used their LB52U's and swear by them. LB52U's are are a specialised electrode and are used in Uranami welding ( a term that I understand to mean welding from one side -as in a root penetration bead in a pipe butt weld ) Correctly handled they produce a bead approaching a TIG weld appearance.
I assume you have a mild mild welding electrode .It may be coded 6012 or 6013 adjacent to the bare bit.The yanks are users of their products in the oil industry so that must count for something.It would love to get my mits on the mils steel versions they make.I would expect them to be as good as their high strength LB52U,s

Groggy,
Positional welding in welding terms is where the surface being welded upon is vertical, overhead or anywhere in between. I trained the X ray level welders to this standard for years. You have not lived until you have laid on your back and put an bead in over your head and have the sparks come down and burn through your leather hat- like a foily, but for welders. No wonder I have'nt got much hair left.I got burnt away.
Cheers
Grahame

DanP
11th Jul 2006, 11:28 PM
You have not lived until you have laid on your back and put an bead in over your head and have the sparks come down and burn through your leather hat- like a foily, but for welders. No wonder I have'nt got much hair left.I got burnt away.

Ah, laying on your back in a boiler tube, overalls on fire, worrying about if you took your lighter out of your pocket and getting zapped every time you change rods. I really miss welding.

Nothing like a good positional root bead...;)

Dan

journeyman Mick
11th Jul 2006, 11:52 PM
Ah, laying on your back in a boiler tube, overalls on fire, worrying about if you took your lighter out of your pocket and getting zapped every time you change rods. I really miss welding.

Nothing like a good positional root bead...;)

Dan

Did a lot of Aluminium boat builds/fitouts a few years back, working ridiculous hours to meet deadlines. Whenever I started feeling a bit sorry for myself I'd watch some poor bugger lying in the bilge or inside one of the fuel or sewage tanks trying to weld the sole to the framing over their heads. Some of the tanks were so tight it would have been near impossible to get them out if something went wrong. Full of unsafe work practices that place was :mad: .

Mick

Schtoo
12th Jul 2006, 01:38 AM
Grahame, if you can give me a number I can ask about, I'll see if I can't dig some up for you.

One of the guys I play softball with cuts out steel shapes for the cranes and ships that get built around here, another works for a coachbuilders and there is always the local crane company, Tadano.

If they are not hiding around here somewhere, then they don't exist. ;)

(Freaking crazy, all this steel working stuff around here, but do you think I can easily buy anything but plain old mild steel?)

Grahame Collins
21st Jul 2006, 11:26 PM
Hi Schoo
Thank you for your kind offer.
I did a google on Kobelco and crikey ,their bloody handbook runs to a 180 plus pages.I am completely blown away.I have never seen a company with the volume of consumables these guys offer.You could change electrode types every day and not see the same type again for a year.Talk about spoilt for choice.
These guys have everything.The parent company is Kobe steel.Surelyif steel is a core business, they must have some of the steel goodies you are searching for.
For the time being won't ask for anything electrode wise but might trouble you later on,if the offer is still open later. We are so busy at school that I am getting less and less opportunities to read the forum.
Once again thank you very much.
Grahame

Dobre
12th May 2010, 06:44 PM
I know that this is an very old thread but is always good to rebirth them and simply to remind us about electrode care. Electrodes can be purchased cheaply but its a pain in the butt when you need to do some welding and you have left your packet out in the rain after that last job you did around the house. The time and money wasted going to buy a new pack to simply run a couple of beads on your trailer.
Make a little bit of an effort to correctly store your rods and they will be ready for when you need them next. A very good thread from Grahame.

danielhobby
12th May 2010, 11:17 PM
While this discussion has been going on I cut up some pipe, painted it and put some caps on. It took a full fifteen minutes with the extended drying time for the paint in the cold weather. I even put a small bit of rubber at each end to stop banging the rods. Overkill is my middle name :o .

Thanks again for the tip Grahame.

EDIT: Checking my electrodes shows them to be E4112, AWS A5.1 E6013 by CIGWELD (Ferrocraft 12XPs). Since I use them on a small stick welder for general purpose home use, I hope they are suitable. If not, what would you suggest?
very good choice for general mucking about and mild steel positional welding,probably the most commonly used electrode for farmers,home handymen and tradies site welding etc