Milling Machine vs Drill Press

[Mindabout]

I posted some time ago (I think in the wood working part of the forum) asking about drill presses and at the time some suggested that a milling machine might be more suited to my needs...

Just quickly, I have studied gold and silversmithing at uni (not just smithing, jewellery fabrication also) and found the drill press there to be one of the pieces of equipment I used most. Since finishing uni I have been working a day job to pay the bills and trying to set up a studio to continue my jewellery work with the aim to one day start a business from there. I am leasing a one room space in an arts centre - the location is ideal (in the city) but space is limited - my room is 3.5 x 3.5 metres. Given the limited space I need to think very carefully about the size of equipment that I am bringing in as it may put limits on additions I can make to my studio in the future.

Given these space limitations I have decided to go for a bench top drill press. I bought a Ryobi drill press - at 65cm total height it seemed the perfect size... but, I didn't do my research very well and the Ryobi is a piece of junk - the shaft is not set to a 90 degree angle so I simply cannot drill an accurate hole with it. I have given up on this one and want to replace it with something accurate but of a similar size. I am prepared to spend around $500 and could stretch that to $600 or so.

I have been looking around at tool outlets and online at the more expensive drill presses (ie. not bunnings junk) and have found that all the bench top drill presses are substantially bigger than the Ryobi one that I bought - it stands at 65cm full height, the others are all around 1m or higher and have a much larger base. If I put one of those on the bench I already have in place it would be too high to be a good working height (although I could get a box to stand on I suppose).

Anyway, yesterday I had a look at Carba-Tec - I spoke to a salesman there who told me that the drill presses don't generally come in smaller sizes unless you get something like a Ryobi from a regular hardware store. Then I asked him about a milling machine that they had on the floor - small in size - smaller than the Ryobi drill press. (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=100_2400_2430). I've never used a milling machine before and really don't know anything about the capabilities. He told me that he hadn't used a milling machine either. He thought that I may find it suitable to my needs but he wasn't sure. He informed me that it drills more slowly than a drill press but as I'm mostly drilling metal that it shouldn't be a problem. He also said that I might find it more versatile depending on what work I'm doing down the track - he mentioned drilling channels. I asked if he could plug in and run a floor model as a demonstration but he said they weren't technically and legally allowed to do that - 1 for insurance reasons, and 2 because then they would be selling "2nd hand equipment" which they would need a license for. In the end I felt that he wasn't confident that a milling machine would really suit me but didn't know how I'd go finding a drill press that was accurate enough. He suggested I look around at other stores as well before making my mind up...

So, I am here to try to learn about milling machines - what they can do, how suitable they are to drill metal (mainly copper, brass, sterling silver and occassionally mild steel), how long they will last.... and what sort of quality you could expect from a $600 machine. The reason I have told practically my life story is because maybe there are other options out there that people could suggest knowing what I am wanting to do with the machine and what I have already looked at. I would really appreciate any advice, thoughts, opinions, links to info - whatever anyone can offer. And, if you have read this far - thanks heaps!

[rodm]

A mill will drill as well as a drill press.
The speed is not an issue as mills come with a good selection of speeds at least equivalent to a drill press.

The cross table on a mill makes it easy to position the drill bit on centre but you need "T" nuts to attach anything to the table. Don't be tempted to use cup head bolts or other substitutes as you are likely to break the casting in the slots.

Milling machines are far more versatile than a drill press and have the capability to make face cuts and edge cuts as well as slots, counterboring and a heap of other uses I can't think of at the moment. :)
In other words they can shape metals. This comes at a price and to set up with tooling to do these functions you will spend as much as you do on the mill in tooling.

More specific to the little mill you have suggested.
This unit has plastic gears in the drive. Prone to breaking teeth but they can be replaced. The motor is underpowered and the size of the mill is too small for serious drilling but this may not be an issue for you.
There is not much clearance between the head of this mill and the table so if you wanted to attach a vice to the table then there isn't much room left for your job. Remember you have to fit a drill bit in there as well.
IMHO I think you will be disappointed with the little mill if you are comparing it to a drill press.

My suggestion is to buy a drill press the equivalent of what you used at Uni. You said the drill press was one of the most used pieces of equipment so my way of thinking is it is then worth making room for.

A drill press has a small footprint so it doesn't take up much room at all so perhaps a floor model would be suitable so you can regain your bench space. For $600 you can get a decent floor standing drill press that will give you years of trouble free operation.

A thought is to bore a hole in your bench (or easier to cut a slot) and slip the column of the drill press through it. Re-assemble the head, drill table and base with the column running through the bench. Of course you will loose drilling capacity but you will regain your bench space. You will have to do the measurements to see if you still have enough column travel to meet your drilling needs.

[Rossluck]

I was about to reply but Rod beat me to it. What Rod said. :)

[Coldamus]

First let me say I know no more about milling machines than you but I understand your problem in trying to find a quality small drill press.

I suggest you call into Hare & Forbes (Hafco.)
http://www.hareandforbes.com.au/
Wheras Carbatec are mostly devoted to woodworking, Hafco are oriented more towards metalworking machinery. They should have someone who can advise you and perhaps demonstrate a small milling machine. I can't see one in their current online catalogue matching the one in your Carbatec link but they generally have similar machines to Carbatec at similar prices.

Milling machines are designed for working with metal and the relatively soft metals you mentioned should not be a problem, especially if you will only be using the machine as a drill.

We're talking about Chinese machines here and I'm not sure whether the words "quality" and "precision" are in the chinese vocabulary, judging by recent experiences (yours and mine) but the milling machines do seem to be much better built than the cheap drill presses. They are of course much more expensive, size for size.
Part of the extra cost is in the X-Y axis milling table.

It would be nice to hear the experiences of someone who actually has one.

regards
Colin Acheson

[Metal Head]

Hi Mindabout,

Rod hascom up with some excellent suggestions there. However, given you have got any experience in milling machines I would go to a company that sells either new or used milling equipment and pick the the brains of the salesmen. It will give you a feel for what you REALLY need and what other items - the correct clamping set (as mentioned), cutters etc. There are small traverse tables that you could attach to the vice table that allows you x & y axis movement - then it could be operated like a mill.

If you live in Melbourne I could catch up with you (if you want) and we could go and have a look at some equipment and I could give you some advice on the subject.

You can always buy DVD's off EBay that explains how a milling machine works and what you can do on it (depending on the machines capabilities;)) but that is nothing compared to hands on advice.

Best of luck

Regards
David

[scooter]

Mind, just on your Ryobi drill press, I assume it is not square to the table front to back, this is not uncommon with cheap drill presses (like mine :D ).

Have a look where the table pivots side to side, it may have a bolt or some means to adjust the front to back angle.

Otherwise, if this is stripped as mine was, you may be able to shim a false tabletop somehow. This worked for me.

Doesn't make the tool any better, but may make it useable.


Cheers.................Sean

[bsrlee]

Following on from what Scooter said:

Is the problem that the table is out of square, or is the chuck assembly out of line to the axis of rotation?

If it is out of whack to the axis of rotation, try removing the chuck & cleaning both the male & female Morse tapers. If the drive spindle is hollow, you can use a bar to tap the chuck out, otherwise I have read that you use an open adjustable wrench loose around the joint between the chuck & drive shaft, then tap the wrench with a hammer repeatedly until the chuck drops out.

I found that using a hole saw with the price tag struck between the hole saw & arbour also causes the chuck to drop out every few minutes :rolleyes:

If the drive shaft bearings are dud, take it back as it is 'not of marketable quality'

And if the table has a built-in slope, as Scooter says - either shim it or make a new table top.

[Mindabout]

Thanks for all those replies. It has given me a fair bit to think about and I think it has sort've made my mind up. The mill sounds like the most expensive option and will cost more and more if I want to get attachments plus the throat is not very deep so I will be really limited in what I could drill.

A bench top drill that is on a bench that is too high will either be dangerous because my eyes are level with the drill or because I'm standing on a box to be the right height ... meaning, if I need to jump out of the way of something that gets caught on the drill (worst case scenario) I might end up with injuries depending on how I land.

So, a pedestal drill press does sound like the best option.... although the whole dragging it up to the third floor of my building via the stairs doesn't sound like much fun. So, if I go to Hare and Forbes this weekend &/or back to Carba Tec what should I be looking for in a drill? Maybe some of you could comment on some of these? http://www.hareandforbes.com.au/sample_2/home.php I won't be drilling much at first... maybe more later, but still don't think I'll be putting any great strain on the machine. I need it to be accurate - that's about it. If I go cheapest am I sacrificing anything important? (By accurate I mean - I need to be able to guide it into the centrepunch mark - from there it should be okay. The Ryobi spun the drill around so much that it was impossible to get it to line up with the punch mark rather than spin around it.)

Regarding my Ryobi - its a write-off. I have already checked it out with my father's help - the actual shaft that the whole chuck wedges onto is crooked. The casing around it is sealed closed - no way to get in there and have a look. Unfortunately I've lost the receipt so can't take it back. I could get it repaired I suppose but I doubt it would be worth it.

I'm hoping to get a new drill press this weekend as I've got work waiting to go that I need a drill press for... is it bad to go out looking at gear with the attitude that I want to walk out with something? Should I plan to leave with nothing and go back later after some cooling off time?

[damienhazo]

Don't know if you can get it in Oz but a model-building mate over here swears by PROXXON: http://www.proxxon.de/en/liste.php?rubrik=15&bereich=1#top Be prepared to drooooool....

24313

While the differences might seem subtle between and drill and a mill, they are many. Most drills don't have variable speed which I imagine would be important for someone working with different, mainly soft metals.


Good luck!


Damien

[Pat]

For Proxxon in Australia try Wood Working Machinery (http://http://www.woodworking.com.au/cgi-bin/WMS.exe?WMS=list&type=3&title=Proxxon) in Victoria.

Usual disclaimer: I am in no way involved in this retailer or manufacturer

[Mindabout]

Don't know if you can get it in Oz but a model-building mate over here swears by PROXXON: http://www.proxxon.de/en/liste.php?rubrik=15&bereich=1#top Be prepared to drooooool....


While the differences might seem subtle between and drill and a mill, they are many. Most drills don't have variable speed which I imagine would be important for someone working with different, mainly soft metals.


Good luck!


Damien



I thought all drill presses have variable speed - even the ryobi $100 cheap and nasty job has different speeds. There is a door on the machine casing that you open to change speeds - you need to physically take the belt off one size pully(doubt that's the correct term) and move it up or down to a different sized one depending if you want faster or slower.

______________________________________________________________________________

I had a look at the website (although I found I couldn't link to anything from there - went back to http://www.proxxon.de and selected "Micromot Tools" from the drop down, then "Table top tools and accessories"). And yes, I have been drooling. My eye was actually caught by the 2 drills - Bench Drill Machine TBM220 and Bench Drill Press TBH.

Wondering if these are available anywhere local to me.... does anyone know if there is a Proxxon dealer in Brisbane? Then also, does anyone know if these would fall within my price range? My price range goes up to about $500 ... or $600 for something special.

I know I said last night that I think I'll have to go with a pedestal drill press... but this is still not a very attractive option to me... mainly because there's no floor space for it - it is going to have to go in a narrow space that I have kept open to be able to move around my studio... in other words, I'm going to have to walk past it sideways every time I need to go past it... which could get annoying I'd imagine. Guess, I'm still open to other options... I think a drill press is what I really need.... a mill with its T-track system is probably going to be more messing around than I'm up for - at uni we always just masking taped our piece of metal to a chunky, flat block of timber and then put the timber on the table and drilled away.... or, for more accurate jobs - put the piece into a good vice.

Anyway, those two proxxon bench drill presses look okay to me... probably until I find out the prices. Size of pieces for drilling will certainly be limited on one hand.... on the other when I need to drill something big its usually like the leg of a bench that I'm making - not my jewellery work.... in that case, I can go and use my Dad's pedestal drill as its got a huge capacity and there wouldn't be the need to be so accurate for that.

And I guess, that's my final question - if anyone knows, does proxxon have a good re-sale value? (In case of getting a small drill press then wanting something bigger down the track).

[Mindabout]

For Proxxon in Australia try Wood Working Machinery (http://http://www.woodworking.com.au/cgi-bin/WMS.exe?WMS=list&type=3&title=Proxxon) in Victoria.

Usual disclaimer: I am in no way involved in this retailer or manufacturer

Sorry, should've mentioned earlier - I'm in Brisbane.

__________________________________________________________

On another note, I do want to recommend strongly against buying Ryobi products... not only because the standards of their products has dropped so much but also because their customer support is woeful... or, I should say - non existant. I emailed their customer support email address explaining the problem I was experiencing and asking them in general how accurate they expect their drill presses to be. I asked because if they could tell me this was a one off bad product I would have been looking to get it replaced. Anyway, no reply to that email ever. A couple of months later I sent a similar email from a friend's account using my friend's name to sign off - again, no reply.

I know some people say you should expect that when you try to communicate with companies by email.... my thought is that if the company never intends to respond to emails they shouldn't make an email address available. They have wasted my time by providing me with an email address when they don't respond to emails.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Of course, everyone here probably already knows not to touch ryobi with a 10 foot barge pole.

[damienhazo]

I thought all drill presses have variable speed - even the ryobi $100 cheap and nasty job has different speeds. There is a door on the machine casing that you open to change speeds - you need to physically take the belt off one size pully(doubt that's the correct term) and move it up or down to a different sized one depending if you want faster or slower.

Theres a difference between variable speed and 3 speed. Pulley selection is like changing gears on a bicycle, turning the knob on a variable speed is like peddling faster. Know what I mean?


I had a look at the website (although I found I couldn't link to anything from there - went back to http://www.proxxon.de (http://www.proxxon.de/) and selected "Micromot Tools" from the drop down, then "Table top tools and accessories"). And yes, I have been drooling. My eye was actually caught by the 2 drills - Bench Drill Machine TBM220 and Bench Drill Press TBH.

I tried getting the complete URL but it wasn't possible. The site URL doesn't change and the page properties are only for the frames. Glad you found what you were looking for.


Damien

[Mindabout]

Theres a difference between variable speed and 3 speed. Pulley selection is like changing gears on a bicycle, turning the knob on a variable speed is like peddling faster. Know what I mean?
Damien

Thanks for explaining that Damien... I don't know much about tools and wasn't trying to be smart with my comment... was just saying what I understood to be the case. All I know about tools is what I have researched and found out for myself... plus all the things I've assumed I know that I don't necessarily. Thanks for your patience.

[Mindabout]

I see that mytoolstore.com.au is selling a Proxxon drill press... has anyone had any experience buying through this company? I've never heard of them before....

[Mindabout]

Just thought I'd conclude this thread by reporting back on my shopping. I went to Gregory Machinery on the weekend to check out their JET drill presses. The smallest one was huge... in fact they all were... the sales guy was really friendly though and happy to recommend other places. He told me the name of the proxxon dealer in Victoria (I knew the company but not the guy's name) in case I wanted to follow that avenue and assured me that if I asked for the right guy he'd be really helpful. He also suggested that I just go every where I can and ask for anything that is made by Rexon. On the way home from Gregory Machinery I stopped off at Glenford's at Wooloongabba - turned out they had a whole range of Rexon's - maybe aimed at the home handyman? Anyway, I picked up a $99 Rexon about the same size as the Ryobi I have that doesn't work - the sales guy there claimed that they sold a lot of those drill presses to industry... he was very vague though and I didn't buy for a moment that he actually knew what I was talking about.... even with my limited knowledge I seemed to be educating him. I decided to buy the Rexon because if it ws no good I would just return it the following weekend.

And so, the $99 Rexon drill press - how did it perform? Not bad... for $99 pretty damn good actually. I actually had to take the floor model because it was the last one - this meant it was already assembled when I got it. It is a little bit rattley when it runs... but it might be a case of taking the chuck off, cleaning the shaft thingy, putting it back on - a few things like that - just haven't had time to experiment yet. Anyway, it suits my purposes as even though the drill doesn't run dead straight it is true enough that I can guide it into the centre punch mark - from there it seems okay. For $99 I don't have to worry about re-sale price and can afford to replace it in a few years with something of higher quality when I move to a bigger studio space. On the other hand, by then I might have figured out how to get it to run beautifully.

I was keen on the Proxxon though.... it looks and sounds like a dream drill press. On the other hand, I can definately do more with the Rexon that I got with its substantially deeper throat and drill to table/base height.

Finally, thanks for all the replies on this thread - it makes such a difference to go out shopping for tools armed with at least a little bit of info or food for thought.