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Metal Head
1st Apr 2006, 07:24 PM
I thought given that I had hijacked (not intensionaly) a MIG thread to talk about TIG issues it maybe wiser to set up a thread for TIG itself.

I'd like to thank the guys below for their replies to my queries - much appreciated;).

Grahame - In regard to your reply you mentioned a Fronious unit that I have never heard of - where are they made?. This morning I went to the local BOC depot and had a look at the Kemppi Mastertig range (15A) and was impressed by the unit. However, I will go back in the next few weeks to have a demonstration of one in use (in house). I have learnt from past experiences in life that apart from the equipment (e.g. cars, lathes) that you have to have the service to back up the unit. That is why I would prefer to deal with someone locally and not one interstate as is usually the case when buying on Ebay. I buy & sell things on EBay and have found out that items purchased are not the way they are described and even look:mad:. As they say sometimes you have to pay extra for peace of mind. The reason I am know looking at a 15A 240V machine is that I was told on Wednesday I was going to be retrenched in a fortnights time, so I am toying with the idea (and many more) of maybe starting to do some welding on a casual basis. Thus if I get tasks to do on site(s) I won't have that much trouble getting 240V power as I would with 3 phase.

Mick I have attached a couple of images that may help you to distinguish whether I can have 3 phase or not?.

Does anyone here ever worked (or have) either a 240V or 3 phase Tig welder they would like to share their opinions on please?.

Thanks to all.

Cheers
David


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Head
Given that I want this installed in my shed at home (residential) are there people (e.g. council, electrical company etc) that I have to get in touch with in order to get permission to do this?. Secondly, would anyone have any idea (apart from alot ) how much it will cost to have 3 phase fitted and do I have to seek a special type of electrician to install it?.


The simple answer, David, is to grab hold of a good electrician (just look one up in the yellow pages), ask for a quote, and basically leave it to them. In QLD there are no special requirements. Three phase capacity should be outside your house, and it's just a matter of running it in. It is expensive, I wouldn't be thinking of getting away with much under $2000 by the time it's installed. They have to run the cable (underground or overhead) install circuit breakers and new outlets and so on. All three phase electrical componenets are exxy. A plug or socket costs over $50.00.

It is worth it though. Once you have it you enter a new market where you can buy three phase machinery relatively cheaply. I bought a 200amp three-phase CIG MIG with traveller, two torches and a good roll of wire for $200.00, and it's been a gem. On Ebay during the week I bought a 2.2KW induction motor for $27.00, and so on....

You also enter a world of power. For instance, my stick welder runs up to 300 amps, and I bought a 10HP rip saw on Ebay that literally weighs a tonne. Because of this power, as Grahame has pointed out, three phase welders just seem to weld better. You can feel the smoothness the first time you use them.

If only I could actually weld, I'd be really happy (keep writing Grahame, I'm listening!).

If you need to justify it, just remember that once installed it can also be used for three-phase air conditioners with the power to run ducting through the house.
___________________________________________________________________

David,
wander out onto the street (if you have overhead powerlines) and count the wires running past your house. If there's four (3 phases and neutral) then you're fine. If you don't (and some areas don't) then unless you spend a lot of money, you're stuffed. If the power in your area is underground then you need to talk to the supply authority.

Mick
___________________________________________________________________

Sorry people, been off line for a time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Head
do I have to seek a special type of electrician to install it?.


Yes the special type of electrician is one of the rare ones .
What you are looking for, of course, is one that turns up when on time and on the day he said he would.

You can get caught with Tig too, if you are intending bigtime on the aluminium welding route .The torch will heat rapidly and unless you intend on welding for 3 mins and cooling for 10, avoid the air cooled torch.From what I have seen in industry ,the pros all use water cooled torches.

Another way around it may be to go to a A Fronious AC/DC unit.Yes they are very expensive but may well be under the set up cost of 3 phase.Once again I stress - air cooled torch.
The other side of the argument as noted by Ross Luck was the very cheap price good second hand 3 phase gear can be had for.In any case if you feel the ally work would justify it go for the water cooled torch.

Thats my two o bob's worth today

Grahame

Grahame Collins
1st Apr 2006, 09:30 PM
Hi David, bad news about your job, but at least you had some advance warning. Glad to see that you are taking advantage of opportunities. I have a Fronius Magicwave 1700 sitting in the garage right now on trial,I am retiring in a year or two and am going to work at a "niche operation" requiring minimal equipment and utilising my skills gained over many years.In a way we shall be doing similiar things.

< you mentioned a Fronious unit that I have never heard of - where are they made?>.

Germany

< That is why I would prefer to deal with someone locally >
SEMCO the Australian agent for Fronius is in Melbourne

<that items purchased are not the way they are described and even look . As they say sometimes you have to pay extra for peace of mind>
Around $5000 for the 1700

<Thus if I get tasks to do on site(s) I won't have that much trouble getting 240V power as I would with 3 phase>
Ask if the other inverter machines will run from a generator – Fronius can.

I have run this machine at home and yet to see any problems with radio frequency interference – Make sure of this if you are doing a bit of work from home. neigbours will complain.

A small negative I would raise is that the machine controls are complex and not for the technologically challenged ( Me! I have trouble setting the VCR ) The manual is large and should be read over and over gain. Go here for the Australian Importer Smenco

http://www.smenco.com.au/fronius.htm

You will have more questions for sure.If you wish to send me a PM I am more than happy to answer them privately.
Last thought
Have you had Oxy welding experience .It is a superb lead up to TIG work as the wire filler manipulation is almost identical.

Regards Grahame

journeyman Mick
2nd Apr 2006, 10:22 PM
David,
you have got 3 phase running past your door.:)

Mick

Metal Head
3rd Apr 2006, 09:10 PM
David,

you have got 3 phase running past your door.:)

Mick

Thanx for that Mick.

Cheers
David

bez
8th Apr 2006, 10:30 AM
Hi David, bad news about your job, but at least you had some advance warning. Glad to see that you are taking advantage of opportunities. I have a Fronius Magicwave 1700 sitting in the garage right now on trial,I am retiring in a year or two and am going to work at a "niche operation" requiring minimal equipment and utilising my skills gained over many years.In a way we shall be doing similiar things.

< you mentioned a Fronious unit that I have never heard of - where are they made?>.

Germany

< That is why I would prefer to deal with someone locally >
SEMCO the Australian agent for Fronius is in Melbourne

<that items purchased are not the way they are described and even look . As they say sometimes you have to pay extra for peace of mind>
Around $5000 for the 1700

<Thus if I get tasks to do on site(s) I won't have that much trouble getting 240V power as I would with 3 phase>
Ask if the other inverter machines will run from a generator – Fronius can.

I have run this machine at home and yet to see any problems with radio frequency interference – Make sure of this if you are doing a bit of work from home. neigbours will complain.

A small negative I would raise is that the machine controls are complex and not for the technologically challenged ( Me! I have trouble setting the VCR ) The manual is large and should be read over and over gain. Go here for the Australian Importer Smenco

http://www.smenco.com.au/fronius.htm

You will have more questions for sure.If you wish to send me a PM I am more than happy to answer them privately.
Last thought
Have you had Oxy welding experience .It is a superb lead up to TIG work as the wire filler manipulation is almost identical.

Regards Grahame

Fronius are actually made in Austria. I used to sell quite a few of their machines. In my opinion the Kemppi is the best machine (it is made in Finland) I still sell plenty of them and they are very reliable and have great back up. $5,000.00 for a 1700 is way over the top. You could get a brand new Kemppi AC/DC 2000 for about $4500.00 including GST. An H/F D.C. only machine would sell for only about half that. I have been selling welding equipment for 25 years so I have had plenty of experience and don't mind answering any questions you have because that's what I hope for from here when I have wood working questions. I'm in NSW but could steer you to someone in your area for a good deal if you're interstate.

Metal Head
9th Apr 2006, 08:21 PM
Fronius are actually made in Austria. I used to sell quite a few of their machines. In my opinion the Kemppi is the best machine (it is made in Finland) I still sell plenty of them and they are very reliable and have great back up. $5,000.00 for a 1700 is way over the top. You could get a brand new Kemppi AC/DC 2000 for about $4500.00 including GST. An H/F D.C. only machine would sell for only about half that. I have been selling welding equipment for 25 years so I have had plenty of experience and don't mind answering any questions you have because that's what I hope for from here when I have wood working questions. I'm in NSW but could steer you to someone in your area for a good deal if you're interstate.

Hi Bez,

Thanks for the reply. The machine I saw was the top of the range (in the Kempipi 2000 series - AC/DC) with all the whistles but not the assessories:(. This would cost $5000 @ BOC in Preston, Melbourne. How much cheaper would just the DC be although I'm bound to kick myself (in the long term) for not having the aluminium option:confused:. If you do have connections here in Melbourne who maybe who could do a cheaper deal then I am all ears;). If you prefer to PM me or you could send the info to my email address at:-

[email protected]

Please Note - There is an underscore in between jackson & close.

Thanking you in advance of your reply.

Cheers
David

Grahame Collins
10th Apr 2006, 01:24 AM
Bez,
Thanks for the correction on Austrian Manufacture
You say that that the Kemmpi is the better make.
What are the comparisons that you can point out that makes the Kemmpi a better buy?
The machine I am offered comes equipped with MMA leads and basic torch ,one that controls the amps from the handpiece.
The Fronious Magicave 1700 has the following features
Checklist

Energy-saving inverter technology
Anti-stick function
Automatic ball formation
Automatic post-gas time (welding current dependant)
Carrying strap
Continuous welding-current adjustment
Digital welding process
Gas test function
Generator compatible
Hot Start
Lift arc ignition / HF switchable
Machine earthing test
Microprocessor control
Operating-hours counter
Over temperature sensor switch
Polarity switchover
Quieter arc with Active Wave
Remote controllable
RPI ignition
S-Sign, CE-Sign standard
Thermostat controlled fan
Upgrading though modular system
In addition I found that it does not seem to generate RF interference.

I would like to find how the AC DC Hf Kemmpi compares?

Regards
Grahame

Pulpo
11th Apr 2006, 08:22 AM
Bez

Does your statement of Kemmpi hold for MIGs as well?

I know off the subject.:o

What is the difference between AC/DC and just DC tig machines?

Bez can you narrow down where in Sydney you are?

Thanks

pulpo

bez
11th Apr 2006, 08:27 AM
David and Grahame. Sorry I haven't answered your questions but I will reply to you both in detail tonight. Having sold both Fronius and Kemppi machines and especially TIG machines, the most important things when buying any machine are performance, reliability and service. i.e. warranty and future spare parts. In my experience this is where the Kemppi far exceeds anything else on the market. The Kemppi and Fronius are very similar in technology and features. I wouldn't buy a D.C. H/F machine, i would always opt for the AC/DC version. Most people buy AC/DC but we do sell a few D.C. only units to people who never want to do any Aluminium. It's worth thinking about seriously though before making your final decision because if you buy a D.C only machine, you can't convert it to do Aluminium, you have to buy another machine.
Will give you more info tonight
Regards
Bez

David, Re the machine you were quoted. Was that with the Pulse panel and 8 metre torch and does it include GST ? There are 3 panels available for the AC/DC 2000. There is a new model (230) due for release in about may but it will be more expensive. They are still going to keep the 2000 model going. There will be a few 2nd hand/trade ins on the market when that is released. I already have about4 or 5 trade customers wanting to upgrade when it is released.

bez
11th Apr 2006, 10:26 PM
Bez,


I would like to find how the AC DC Hf Kemmpi compares?

Regards
Grahame

Grahame, the Kemppi doesn't have Automatic ball formation or up/down current control on the torch handle (although it will have on the new model and we have fitted them on a few occassions to the current model). What it does have is the best welding arc on A.C. a higher duty cycle (which is very important) and reliability with after sales service. Kemppi has an office in Sydney who imports and distributes their products from their parent company in Finland, through a distributor network. They have a massive store of machines and parts and have regular airfreights arriving weekly. Fronius on the other hand is imported to Australia by an Agent. If you ever get a problem, there is nothing like factory support in the country you llive in. The Kemppi AC/DC is by far the largest selling machine in NSW (don't know about other states but I'd imagine they're the same). They have been bought by hobbyists, people who specialise in custom car fabricationturbos, manifolds etc) and companies for large production runs. They are super reliable and easy to use. Granted, it may not be as small as the Fronius but it wasn't as small as the Esab AC/DC 180 which was popular a few years ago (it only weighed 11KG) and after 2-3 years of operation, they were dropping like flies, sometimes uneconomical to repair. Don't just take my word, do your research, ask repair companies about turnaround times should a problem occur and cost and availability of parts. Hope this helps.
Regards
Bez

bez
11th Apr 2006, 10:47 PM
Bez

Does your statement of Kemmpi hold for MIGs as well?

I know off the subject.:o

What is the difference between AC/DC and just DC tig machines?

Bez can you narrow down where in Sydney you are?

Thanks

pulpo

Hi pulpo, no problems.
Kemppi 3 phase migs are among the best on the market. They don't sell any single phase migs here in Australia. A few months ago they introduced a lightweight inverter 240v mig machine 150 amps but to be honest I'm not a fan of it (and i told them so) and it is not selling as well as they hoped. The 240V mig market is very price conscious, if you want cheap you'd buy a CIGWELD or UNIMIG (Malaysian and Italian respectively) but if your after a better quality buy a WIA or an ESAB. A little bit more expensive but far better.
D.C. machines are for welding Steel, Stainless steel , Chrome Moly etc. AC/DC machines weld all of those when in DC mode but when in AC mode can weld Aluminium. Magnesium and their alloys.
Hope this helps

Sydneys western Suburbs but we do all of the metro area.
Regards
Bez

Metal Head
12th Apr 2006, 09:27 AM
Hi pulpo, no problems.
Kemppi 3 phase migs are among the best on the market. They don't sell any single phase migs here in Australia. A few months ago they introduced a lightweight inverter 240v mig machine 150 amps but to be honest I'm not a fan of it (and i told them so) and it is not selling as well as they hoped. The 240V mig market is very price conscious, if you want cheap you'd buy a CIGWELD or UNIMIG (Malaysian and Italian respectively) but if your after a better quality buy a WIA or an ESAB. A little bit more expensive but far better.
D.C. machines are for welding Steel, Stainless steel , Chrome Moly etc. AC/DC machines weld all of those when in DC mode but when in AC mode can weld Aluminium. Magnesium and their alloys.
Hope this helps

Sydneys western Suburbs but we do all of the metro area.
Regards
Bez

Hi Bez,

Thanks for the reply - much appreciated.

I did a reply last night but when I came to load it - it crashed:mad:. I then tried to get back on the site for the next 20 minutes without any success. However, at some stage tonight I will forward the reply.

Cheers
David

Metal Head
12th Apr 2006, 10:34 AM
Hi pulpo, no problems.
Kemppi 3 phase migs are among the best on the market. They don't sell any single phase migs here in Australia. A few months ago they introduced a lightweight inverter 240v mig machine 150 amps but to be honest I'm not a fan of it (and i told them so) and it is not selling as well as they hoped. The 240V mig market is very price conscious, if you want cheap you'd buy a CIGWELD or UNIMIG (Malaysian and Italian respectively) but if your after a better quality buy a WIA or an ESAB. A little bit more expensive but far better.
D.C. machines are for welding Steel, Stainless steel , Chrome Moly etc. AC/DC machines weld all of those when in DC mode but when in AC mode can weld Aluminium. Magnesium and their alloys.
Hope this helps

Sydneys western Suburbs but we do all of the metro area.
Regards
Bez

Hi Bez,

I’m still at work but bugger it. It’s my last day after 16 years service.

Anyway, if my memory serves me correctly the quotes were:-

Starter pack = $3950 + GST
Mini log = $4350 + GST
Pulse = $4700 + GST

These prices include a 2 year warranty + 8m TIG torch lead + 5m earth lead + gas regulator

Options – Foot controller = $1000
&
A TIG torch with control button/lead = $800

What is your impression of the prices quoted – fair?.

I have been lucky in the past that I have used TIG machines that had both a foot controller as well as a stop/start button on the torch handle – ESAB/Millers. Thus how would one control the amount of heat going into a weld without these accessories?, is it where the “Pulse” panel machine would come into its own?.

Hypothetically what would the criteria (skill level) of the operator be required for purchasing one of the above machines?.

I apologize for all the questions but I would appreciate a reply as I am still pretty naive when it comes to welding machines.

The image(s) are of the 3 panels on offer.

Cheers
David

bez
12th Apr 2006, 10:01 PM
Hi Bez,

I’m still at work but bugger it. It’s my last day after 16 years service.

Anyway, if my memory serves me correctly the quotes were:-

Starter pack = $3950 + GST
Mini log = $4350 + GST
Pulse = $4700 + GST

These prices include a 2 year warranty + 8m TIG torch lead + 5m earth lead + gas regulator

Options – Foot controller = $1000
&
A TIG torch with control button/lead = $800

What is your impression of the prices quoted – fair?.

I have been lucky in the past that I have used TIG machines that had both a foot controller as well as a stop/start button on the torch handle – ESAB/Millers. Thus how would one control the amount of heat going into a weld without these accessories?, is it where the “Pulse” panel machine would come into its own?.

Hypothetically what would the criteria (skill level) of the operator be required for purchasing one of the above machines?.

I apologize for all the questions but I would appreciate a reply as I am still pretty naive when it comes to welding machines.

The image(s) are of the 3 panels on offer.

Cheers
David

Hi David, I wrote an answer to all of your queries tonight. It would have given War and Peace a start and a floggin' in the amount of written text and as I went to submit my reply the modem dropped out and I lost the lot. Thank God Optus don't have anything to do with welding. I have sent you an email instead. If anyone else wanted to know any of the answers to Davids queries, let me know and I will post them here again for you. (Not tonight though, i've done enough typing to last me a month)
Regards
Bez.

bez
12th Apr 2006, 10:05 PM
Hi Bez,

I’m still at work but bugger it. It’s my last day after 16 years service.



Cheers
David

Got to be a sad day. I don't expect a reply from you for a few days.
Good luck.
regards
bez

Metal Head
12th Apr 2006, 10:20 PM
Got to be a sad day. I don't expect a reply from you for a few days.
Good luck.
regards
bez

Hi Bez,

Thanks for the reply here and your email. Actually I just returned from pub where my partner and I had gone for a drink and have a go on the pokies. We won $15 which was enough to cover our drinks @ the pub and bring home a large pizza from Dominos;). I suppose at 47 it should be a concern but when your partner is having chemo for cancer then losing your job isn't that big a problem. As the saying goes "as long as you have good health then nothing else matters".

In regard to your computer crash I can sympathize with you there as mine did exactly the same last night, so now I copy and paste as there maybe a time restriction on how long you have to write here - and being a one finger typist that is a bloody long time.

I will give you a call after Easter.

Cheers
David

P.S. Happy Easter to you and all the readers here.

bez
14th Apr 2006, 11:00 AM
Hi Bez,

Thanks for the reply here and your email. Actually I just returned from pub where my partner and I had gone for a drink and have a go on the pokies. We won $15 which was enough to cover our drinks @ the pub and bring home a large pizza from Dominos;). I suppose at 47 it should be a concern but when your partner is having chemo for cancer then losing your job isn't that big a problem. As the saying goes "as long as you have good health then nothing else matters".

In regard to your computer crash I can sympathize with you there as mine did exactly the same last night, so now I copy and paste as there maybe a time restriction on how long you have to write here - and being a one finger typist that is a bloody long time.

I will give you a call after Easter.

Cheers
David

P.S. Happy Easter to you and all the readers here.

Dave, well i hope you two have a great Easter. Go and buy a lottery ticket and I hope you win a Million dollars. Then you can have all of the pizza and beer you want and pay somone to weld for you. Good luck in future employment and I hope your partner makes a full recovery. You've definitely got the right attitude. All the best. Happy Easter to you too.
Regards
Bez.

Metal Head
14th Apr 2006, 11:20 PM
Dave, well i hope you two have a great Easter. Go and buy a lottery ticket and I hope you win a Million dollars. Then you can have all of the pizza and beer you want and pay somone to weld for you. Good luck in future employment and I hope your partner makes a full recovery. You've definitely got the right attitude. All the best. Happy Easter to you too.
Regards
Bez.

Thanks for the kind words Bez. We did get a ticket yesterday and got the 6 numbers - but unfortunately they were on different lines:D. Never mind hopefully someone who needs it more than us got it.

I hope you and your family have a nice break.

Cheers
David

Flyinsparxx
13th Jun 2006, 07:33 PM
G'Day All,

Sounds like an excellent forum. My first post. Hope I do this right, as liitle experience in using these forums.....

A couple of questions that Bez might be able to answer:

I have a Transtig 150, and need a current control on the handpiece. Quoted $770 for just the slider control.... Not willing to spend that on an older transformer machine only worth about $1500.....

That would be just a variable resitor wouldn't it??? Surely I could improvise something if I knew the values and the wiring in the plug. I'd even consider a device such that it wasn't continuously variable - just a step-down to a previously adjusted lower current for finishing off a weld. Any help in this regard would be appeciated.

Also, those used inverter Kempis that you mentioned - what do they sell for, and surely they can be fitted with current control.

bez
28th Jun 2006, 09:50 PM
Hi Flyinsparxx, very sorry for the delay (I've been away). I think the potentiometer on the transtig 150 is 10k but not 100% sure. I'm not a fan of Cigweld machines and no offence but the 150 is average at best. It has a very low duty cycle on AC/HF but long before it reaches it's thermal cut out the arc "wanders" and the heat transfer to the job is minimal.I don't have one at work at the moment so I can't give you any accurate advice on wiring up a remote current control device but it wouldn't be too hi-tech. A new Kemppi AC/DC inveter sells for approx. $4000.00 plus GST and a second hand one can go for about $3000-$3500 depending on condition. They hold their value quite well. I've actually had customers who have upgraded to a 3 phase machine and sold their 240volt unit for more than they paid for it. Hope this helps
Happy to answer any future questions you may have
Regards
Bez.

Metal Head
28th Jun 2006, 10:31 PM
G'Day All,

Sounds like an excellent forum. My first post. Hope I do this right, as liitle experience in using these forums.....

A couple of questions that Bez might be able to answer:

I have a Transtig 150, and need a current control on the handpiece. Quoted $770 for just the slider control.... Not willing to spend that on an older transformer machine only worth about $1500.....

That would be just a variable resitor wouldn't it??? Surely I could improvise something if I knew the values and the wiring in the plug. I'd even consider a device such that it wasn't continuously variable - just a step-down to a previously adjusted lower current for finishing off a weld. Any help in this regard would be appeciated.

Also, those used inverter Kempis that you mentioned - what do they sell for, and surely they can be fitted with current control.


Hi,

Would this link help?

http://www.cigweld.com.au/litCatalog.asp

If not you could always email them for an answer to your question(s):confused:.

Regards
David

Mick C.
28th Jun 2006, 10:45 PM
Hi,

Only a few days ago i fixed a finger control (Amptrol) for a Lincoln tig for a friend, it was nothing more than a 10K pot and a micro switch, and this thing was worth some $500 odd dollars to replace! All that was needed was a new pot and to reattach the plug

At work i just called the Lincoln tech help guy in Sydney and got the wireing diagram that was needed to sort it out. Surely CIG would have a similar help line or service setup. Then all you need is a trip down to Dicksmith or Jaycar and a spare 1/2 hr. :)

bez
29th Jun 2006, 06:53 AM
Hi,

Only a few days ago i fixed a finger control (Amptrol) for a Lincoln tig for a friend, it was nothing more than a 10K pot and a micro switch, and this thing was worth some $500 odd dollars to replace! All that was needed was a new pot and to reattach the plug

. :)

Basically, that's all they are. Same goes for a Foot Control. A shielded cable should be used on hand remotes attached to the torch.

bez
29th Jun 2006, 07:12 AM
Hi,

Would this link help?

http://www.cigweld.com.au/litCatalog.asp

If not you could always email them for an answer to your question(s):confused:.

Regards
David

Look at the link and you'll see a classic example. The 135 Machine brochure states that it can weld Mild Steel, Stainless Steel and Aluminium,
all this with a duty cycle of 120 amps @ 15%. Their idea of a "weld" and mine are completely different. I know everyone has a budget but always buy the best you can afford. So many of these cheap welding machines end up not being used or in the bin.

Ivan in Oz
29th Jun 2006, 07:17 AM
G'Day Bez,
Good to see you here.
I use the welders at work and YES,
There are some Micro Switches in some difficult places for when the Boileys have their Welding Gloves on.
I also have to replace/Repair them.

I'm teaching my Son to weld.......while I teach myself.
Mig. Tig and Stick, Oxy comes later, when I can master it:o ... just joking

Some of the Welders are Doozies...........
Ramp up,
Run Time,
Current Limit
Need to be in IT to Program it.
I'm Learning to learn by my mistakes:)

Flyinsparxx
30th Jun 2006, 11:19 AM
Thanks for that fellas,

I figured it was as simple as that. Just sent an email to that CIG site asking for the wiring info.

Disappionted to hear Bez's assesment of my CIG machine..... I thought it would be adequate because it's such a well established brand name - so much for image.........

The machine's limitations doesn't excuse my fumbling attempts at TIG. I really enjoy oxy welding, and thought I would really take to TIG, but it's far more fiddly than I had expected (ie- touch the electrode and it's all over til you stop and fix it up). And can't regulate heat just by flicking the flame away or backing off.....

I've had really good results MIG welding aluminium, even 1.6mm, with my old and faithful MigoMag 195, and that's about as basic a machine as there can be. Just wish I could control the heat - start with a really hot burst, and end with minimum to finish off. Machines like the 3-phase Fronious are magic at this work, but I can't get 3-phase here, and can't find a 240v machine that'll do it......

I particularly like MIG for aluminium because full penetration is instant, and the HAZ is much smaller than TIG. Also, I often need to reach into the root of deep fillets, and even the best TIGs really don't like that situation.

Anyone know of a 240v machine that can do that sort of control??

If not, do these new inverter machines already work so much better at low heat that it's worth the move??

Flyinsparxx
30th Jun 2006, 03:09 PM
Just a further thought on that last post........

Since the heat control on those inverter machines is just a little dial, so probably it's just a pot behind there. So should be able to adapt it into a remote.......?

Actually all I really need is a 'flash start' - that would be spray arc heat for an instant, then back to the preset. It's the starts of MIG welds that are bad - that cold 'lump' right at the start until it gets hot enough, and then it's a really good bead, if you travel fast and steady. You can already finish off a bead with MIG aluminium really easily just by pausing for a second and then hit a final short fill and it will meld in nicely.

So I appeal to all you clever backshed ingineers to consider some way of providing such a 'flash start' for MIG welding aluminium.

I'm a fellow backshed ingineer but not clever enough for this one - don't want to blow that electronics board..... But willing to tinker and try - I think it could be a real boon for Al welding.

I guess this should really be the start of a new thread, but I'm not sure how to do that so I'll leave it here.

Mick C.
30th Jun 2006, 11:53 PM
Yes all that is behind the front panel on an Inverter TIG is a lil pot (variable resistor) BUT the electronics needed between that pot and the welding electrode, is FAR from so simple... I'd be guessing that your welder has a BIG switch to change the welding current???? If i'm wrong and your welder has a pot of some sort you could simply remote mount it somewhere else, like in a foot pedle or hand control.

To get an idea of what is needed to build an "Inverter" style welder (not actually an inverter but most of the features) have a look at this site, I have most of this one built, and it is a bigger job than it looks! and also, as much as i hate to say it, this guys project has a number of bugs in it that have ment that my build has taken a LOT longer than expected.

http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a26316/TIG_Welder.html

The addition of a higher current setting on the mig could be done, but how easily i'm not so sure, i can see a lil need for a lil more wire feed perhaps with the high start current and burn back problems etc??? maybe????

Seems to me other than buying a newer TIG with the features you want, the info from CIG for the power controler is your best bet.

What thickness material are you talking about welding???

bez
2nd Jul 2006, 09:43 PM
Thanks for that fellas,

I figured it was as simple as that. Just sent an email to that CIG site asking for the wiring info.

Disappionted to hear Bez's assesment of my CIG machine..... I thought it would be adequate because it's such a well established brand name - so much for image.........

The machine's limitations doesn't excuse my fumbling attempts at TIG. I really enjoy oxy welding, and thought I would really take to TIG, but it's far more fiddly than I had expected (ie- touch the electrode and it's all over til you stop and fix it up). And can't regulate heat just by flicking the flame away or backing off.....

I've had really good results MIG welding aluminium, even 1.6mm, with my old and faithful MigoMag 195, and that's about as basic a machine as there can be. Just wish I could control the heat - start with a really hot burst, and end with minimum to finish off. Machines like the 3-phase Fronious are magic at this work, but I can't get 3-phase here, and can't find a 240v machine that'll do it......

I particularly like MIG for aluminium because full penetration is instant, and the HAZ is much smaller than TIG. Also, I often need to reach into the root of deep fillets, and even the best TIGs really don't like that situation.

Anyone know of a 240v machine that can do that sort of control??

If not, do these new inverter machines already work so much better at low heat that it's worth the move??

Sorry, didn't want to put your CIGWELD machine down but they aren't what they used to be. Although your machine is Australian made, they are all imported from Italy, Malaysia or where ever they can obtain them at a reasonable price these days. They don't have any research and development or Australian imput any more. If some of their products were sold under their "real" manufacturers name no one would buy them because they'd think "I don't know that brand" but because it has CIGWELD on it, they think it's great. A lot of people think their products are still Aust. made.
I know TIG welding is a little tricky to pick up compared to oxy welding (it's a little more precise and the heat is more concentrated) but if you had someone instruct you how to do it properly, you would pick it up quite quickly and after that it's just practice, practice, practice. The most common things that I find people do, is try to add the filler wire too early and have an incorrect torch angle. Never put the filler wire near the workpiece until you have a molten pool and put the filler wire into the molten pool NOT under the arc. You'd probably be surprised how a "good" TIG welder can make a difference though. They have a much softer arc and the inverter machines seem to keep the weld pool stable while fluid whereas transformer machines tend to "push" the metal out of the weld pool.
Don't be fooled in thinking TIG welding doesn't give you the penetration of MIG either. The MIG process is seldomly allowed for use as a root run in any pressure fabrication and you'd be surprised in the amount of cold lapping (no penetration) at the start of aluminium mig welds and also the amount of porosity inside the weld itself. Quite often a perfectly good looking aluminium MIG weld when dissected can look like honeycomb.
The feature you talk of to give you a higher current at the start of a weld is already available on "good" 415Volt machines. It is called the Hot Start function and can be preset on a time or manually operated by the torch trigger. You select a higher current than the welding current you have selected (done as a percentage) so for example your welding current is 100amps (the more up market machines show this as well as wire speed and voltage) and your Hot Start current is 140%. Therefore when you press the trigger to start the weld, as long as you have it depressed, you have the 140 amps, when you release the trigger the machine drops back to the 100 amps. This is done in what is called 4T mode (which means you don't have to hold your hand on the trigger while you weld) when you want to complete the weld, a quick press of the trigger and release and the weld stops. You can also have what is called "Crater Fill" which, when the trigger is released the current dies down to a preset value (also as a percentage (eg 50% of the welding current), this allows time to fill the crater at the end of the weld, especially in Aluminium.
Unfortunately you wont find these features in 240 Volt machines in Australia because the market isn't big enough and 99% of the people here buy on price so the manufacturers concentrate on Industry where Performance is more important than price. Although the Inverter machines do weld much better than a conventional transformer machine it is not enough to warrant trading in your trusty old Migomag (good machine). It is the Pulse machines that make Aluminium Mig welding much better at lower currents because they give an artificial Spray Arc transfer. As transformer machines become more expensive to manufacture because of the raw materials and inverter machines become more common and less costly to make you will eventually see some of these features make their way into 240V models but it will be quite some time off, so don't hold your breath.

bez
2nd Jul 2006, 10:01 PM
Just a further thought on that last post........

Since the heat control on those inverter machines is just a little dial, so probably it's just a pot behind there. So should be able to adapt it into a remote.......?

Actually all I really need is a 'flash start' - that would be spray arc heat for an instant, then back to the preset. It's the starts of MIG welds that are bad - that cold 'lump' right at the start until it gets hot enough, and then it's a really good bead, if you travel fast and steady. You can already finish off a bead with MIG aluminium really easily just by pausing for a second and then hit a final short fill and it will meld in nicely.

So I appeal to all you clever backshed ingineers to consider some way of providing such a 'flash start' for MIG welding aluminium.

I'm a fellow backshed ingineer but not clever enough for this one - don't want to blow that electronics board..... But willing to tinker and try - I think it could be a real boon for Al welding.

I guess this should really be the start of a new thread, but I'm not sure how to do that so I'll leave it here.

Your Migomag 195 has a Voltage selection switch so you wont be able to set up this type of feature on your machine. The other thing is with home made and modified machines. I'm yet to see one that works as well as a "good" brand machine. You could probably make or modify one that works as well as a cheap machine but you'd be better off buying a cheap machine, at least you know it'll work and has warranty but don't forget..it's cheap !
Quality welding machine Manufacturers have R & D depts. that spend millions of dollars annually testing different components,welding paremeters, wires and gases to give improved arc and welding results.
The only trick to welding Aluminium with a transformer machine is, increase the wire speed and voltage much higher than would be used on an equivalent thickness steel.......and go like the clappers. (Much faster travel speed)

Flyinsparxx
3rd Jul 2006, 01:55 PM
G'Day All,

Thanks for that comprehensive repy, Bez. It's so good to hear from someone who obviously has the experience.

There's a bit of misunderstanding here, my TransTIG 150 is marked 'Australian Made' (etched into the circuit board), by CIGWELD in 1993 according to the inspection tags inside the box.... Luckily, duty cycle is no real problem for me because nothing is heavier than 1.6mm, and I have mostly short welds with lots of set-up and prep time (for longer straight runs, and anything thicker than 2mm, I still prefer the MIG). So maybe there's still hope for this machine for my use.... Still trying to get the wiring diagram from CIG but no reply as yet..... Other forums tell that the new TIG inverter machines 'drive' so much nicer than the old transformer ones that I may have to go that way anyhow......

As for the MIG 'flash start' idea - yeh, it may not be possible to improvise. As Mick C. points out, you'd also have to vary the wire speed at the same time.... I guess I'll just have to dream about those u-beaut machines with their hot start, pulsed spray arc, ramp down, etc,etc....

But I do get by pretty well with the old Migomag. I sure agree with what Bez advised - turn the volts and wire speed way up and travel really fast and steady! Only other tip I would give is to get well set up and balanced, with both hands steadying the gun, so that you can follow thro' the run without any hesitation. Don't try to regulate travel speed by watching the weld pool (you'll be way behind the action) - need to practice and practice and practice until you just know how fast to move.

One other wild idea that I want try when I next have the MIG set up for aluminium is to mount the TIG torch alongside the MIG gun, and use it to pre-heat before striking the MIG. With pre-heat, and the wire cut to a sharp point, the old MIG gets away to a pretty good start.... But it might be just too cumbersome.....

bez
3rd Jul 2006, 08:57 PM
G'Day All,


One other wild idea that I want try when I next have the MIG set up for aluminium is to mount the TIG torch alongside the MIG gun, and use it to pre-heat before striking the MIG. With pre-heat, and the wire cut to a sharp point, the old MIG gets away to a pretty good start.... But it might be just too cumbersome.....

Geez Flyinsparxx, why don't you attach a spray gun as well and you can paint the job at the same time.........hang on...you might have to attach a fire extinguisher also. Seriously though, it's not a good idea to have the AC/HF Tig machine and the Mig connected to the same bench running simaltaneously. Especially if it's the older model Migomag 195.


...by the way. Yes your Transtig 150 IS Australian made but they don't make any machines here any more.

Flyinsparxx
4th Jul 2006, 09:23 AM
Yeh, good point Bez. Wouldn't want stray currents from a basic brute like the Migomag around the other machine with those delicate circuit boards......

Oh well, another idea in the bin. Carry on sparkin........

haydofly
27th Jul 2006, 07:44 PM
Hi there,
Has any one tried these cheap ac tigs that are on ebay at the moment?
I am tempted to get one for occasional use at home, possibly just with disposable gas bottles.
I would mostly weld 1.6-3mm aluminium. I think there are water cooled torches available for them too.
If anyone has one or tried one please let me know.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/200-amp-AC-DC-TIG-MMA-STICK-welder-PACKAGE-DEAL_W0QQitemZ130007242789QQihZ003QQcategoryZ46413QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Metal Head
27th Jul 2006, 11:53 PM
Hi Haydofly,

If you do a search (via the search button) on tig welders you should find that this subject has already been raised by me several months ago. I ended up buying a CIG unit as I know that parts will be easy to get. I spoke to a welder repair technician before buying the unit and he said that he had a few people come into see him (over the past couple of years) about their Asia built welders had gone kapput. He said the big problem was most the parts (generally circuit boards) were irreplaceable, but this could be resolved by putting in a better known brand.

Ok the units have a warranty but you have to send it off to them to be repaired, who pays the freight costs - you could depending on who you bought it from?. If you were running a business can you afford to be with out it for a week or possibly a lot more?.

All the best with your purchase.

Regards
David

jmann
19th Jun 2007, 06:25 PM
Last year BEZ mentioned that he had sold Kemppi machines.
I've had a Kemppi ACDC 2000 for a few years now and only use it
for hobby work so it doesn't get a lot of use. While it was still under warranty it stopped working (I'm told it had blown power
transistors) and now it has done the same again recently. I assume this is going to be very expensive to fix and given that it
was brought as a retirement thing I'm more than a bit disappointed that it seems so fragile. Has BEZ or anyone else had
similar experience with this machine?

In use I don't think I'm doing anything wrong. In the first instance I was
using AC and the welding current just stopped. Recently I was using DC and stopped for the evening, let the cooling switch off
under it's own control then powered off. On restart, no welding current but ignition current Ok. The machine has Pulse control panel (all bells and whistles) so very disappointing.

Is this really just a case of a machine trying to do too much on domestic (single phase) power supply?

Thanks for any replies.

Grahame Collins
19th Jun 2007, 07:53 PM
Jmann,
Just a few thoughts

I doubt that the power supply is inadequate for the machine especially if you are using it at typical tig amps -below 100 amps.

Have you any idea of what is going into the machine. Many areas are below as far as a genuine 240 volt supply.

In Qld they tell me that power can go under by 10&#37;. Electrical people will be able to better comment on that figure, but I suppose 216 volts could be considered a benchmark for now.

A reading from your GPO with a multimeter will tell the tale.

I know that power surges affect microprocessors and thats what the machine will have on board for sure.Anything with a micropressor is best left unplugged when not in use.

We run an AC DC Kempi Mastertig 2000 ( Industry grant) at school and it has survived the students for 18 monts so it can't be too bad.
Some times you can be lucky and parts aren't that expensive.The key to it may be a decent repairer.If your lucky enough to strike a place with an electrician experienced in inverter welder repair you will be OK. Ring about and ask questions.
Best of luck with it.

Grahame

browny
19th Jun 2007, 10:26 PM
I believe standard voltage is 230V with +10&#37; -6% tolerance (ie range of 216-253V).

jmann
20th Jun 2007, 05:41 AM
Jmann,
Just a few thoughts

I doubt that the power supply is inadequate for the machine especially if you are using it at typical tig amps -below 100 amps.

Have you any idea of what is going into the machine. Many areas are below as far as a genuine 240 volt supply.

In Qld they tell me that power can go under by 10%. Electrical people will be able to better comment on that figure, but I suppose 216 volts could be considered a benchmark for now.

A reading from your GPO with a multimeter will tell the tale.

I know that power surges affect microprocessors and thats what the machine will have on board for sure.Anything with a micropressor is best left unplugged when not in use.

We run an AC DC Kempi Mastertig 2000 ( Industry grant) at school and it has survived the students for 18 monts so it can't be too bad.
Some times you can be lucky and parts aren't that expensive.The key to it may be a decent repairer.If your lucky enough to strike a place with an electrician experienced in inverter welder repair you will be OK. Ring about and ask questions.
Best of luck with it.

Grahame
Thanks Graham and Browny for you comments on supply voltage. I'm in the metro area in Adelaide so I'd be surprised if they are below par but will
have it measured. I agree with Graham that running one in a school should shake out any inadequacies and I guess that sort of robustness is what I thought I was buying. I'm wondering whether the thing is just getting too
hot and I'm not being warned. The counter argument to this is that on the night of this last failure the ambient temperature was around 5 degrees Celcius and my welding runs were 1 minute, re-adjust the piece maybe 1 minute, weld, re-adjust , go to the loo etc. Total use half an hour. I wouldn't have thought that to be too excessive a duty cycle but I guess it could be if the overheating warning light was faulty etc (which I've never seen coming on)?
I guess I'll have to wait and see what the repairer says is wrong on the inside although I get the impression that the repairer is working in the
dark with these machines because the boards are complex and the
circuit diagrams pretty much non-existant (somebody might like to comment). Repair appears to be similar to modern PC's - take out each board, replace it, and see if the problem goes away. Hoping all the time that the components on the new board don't let the smoke out.
Thanks for the replies - I'll post any update information if I get some from the repairer.