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View Full Version : Need some metal routing bit advice.. please.



JDarvall
5th Jan 2006, 04:08 PM
Hi, hoping for a little metalworking advice.

What I'm looking for is a bit/burr (not sure what to call them) like the one on the far right of the picture I've attached,,,,to rout a groove in a plate of soft steel in the similar way to routing a groove/dado in wood with a powered router.

Like a simple straight router bit...but for steel. Got this picture from the carpa-tec catalog (p163). Its a picture of a HSS burring set to be used on wood. But no good for steel.

The flat bottom stopped groove I'm cutting in steel is quite short. Only about 15mm long. about 3mm deep, and about 5mm wide (5mm being the diameter of the bit). Thats it.

I don't want to spend a fortune for it, but at the same time I don't want it to wear so quickly that I can't even get one groove finished.

I was thinking of doing it on the drill press somehow at high speed.. by sliding the steel along a fence and lowering the bit gradually,,, cutting the groove deeper every pass

Any ideas. Where can I buy bits like this. No doubt my idea's flawed in someway since I'm no metalworker.

I would have done it with a regular twist drill bit, except that the groove has to be flat bottomed. ??

Thinking the bit may have to be diamond coated to be able to cut steel effectively. ?

Thanks :)

Termite
5th Jan 2006, 04:44 PM
What you need is a milling cutter, these are used in a....wait for it.....mill.
Dont quite know how you would do it without a mill. :o

glock40sw
5th Jan 2006, 04:48 PM
It would be better alround to just pay to have it machined at an engineering place.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor

Grahame Collins
5th Jan 2006, 05:18 PM
Yup !
A milling cutter is what you need. Please do not put it in a drill press! .You stand a good chance of being badly hurt. Get thee to a small engineering shop, most should be able to what you want.

The drill press route has too many problems
1.Drill press is not designeed for massive side thrust.
2. Work must be securely fixed down other wise workpiece could come at you at a very high rate of knots.

please play it safe !

Grahame

benyop
5th Jan 2006, 05:19 PM
You can get cutters like you pictured for steel they are carbide burrs or you can use a slotdrill but i dont like your chances of doing a very neat job with a router.

Grahame Collins
5th Jan 2006, 07:42 PM
Whats wrong with me then?
I had a rush of &&&& to the brain after I posted the last comment.

If the kids at school wanted to cut a slot like that, I would have words to say if they did not think of this first.

Given that you have one or maybe a couple to do,what about a series of spaced parallel hacksaw cuts. The whole thing inluding the filing ould be done in say 20 to 30 mins.

Below is a drawing based on your dimensions. I would use a good quality 24tpi blade. That might cost a couple of bucks.The bastard file which you may already have will need to be used on edge and less than 5mm thick.


Grahame

JDarvall
5th Jan 2006, 08:14 PM
Thanks everyone for your input.

Probably right Termite and glock about a milling machine and getting professionally done. Just that its for an experiment. I don't want to pay big bucks for it.

Grahame. Thanks for your concern. I think your right about the drill press not being designed for those kind of side forces. Just I have seen drill presses used in applications that do push on the chuck on the side....like, little sanding drums..etc. So, I sort of figured it may be ok, with such a small cutter and such a shallow depth to cut. But like I said,,,,I'm no metal worker. :D

I musn't have explained myself properly either,,,,its a stopped groove. It doesn't go all the way through to the other side. So, I don't think I'll be able to get a file in there. I should have shown this picture earlier (first picture).

The second picture shows you a ' two way cross slide vise ' (p97 of carpatec catalog).....I've got it sitting on my drill press table. See, my idea was I could clamp my piece in this gizmo, and just wind the piece, in a controlled manner, across the spinning bit......similar to metal lathe work...albeit, vastly insuperior of course :D ...... Its definetly not the best of slide vises. (piece of crap most would say),,,but for the degree of accuracy I'm after it should work and stop me from killing myself......what you think ? .....honestly.

Auld Bassoon
5th Jan 2006, 08:27 PM
G'day Jake,

One possible ( I stress the possible as I haven't tried it) might be:

Drill, using a regular drill bit to a little short of the required depth at the end of the desired groove.

Use a file, in wee short strokes, to level down to the depth - and remove the concavity of the initial drilling.

You could augment this method, perhaps, by drilling a series of overlapping (slightly) holes, again with a standard drill bit, and then just filing out the required trench.

This all seems way too much work, however, when any machine shop with a milling machine could do the job in a few minutes.

I like the darkside, but there are certainly times when it's just too darned hard...

Cheers mate!
PS If you want really darkside, you could always just chew the metal out :eek: :D :D

Dano48
5th Jan 2006, 10:09 PM
I have done it!, same set up as you have, only in aluminium, you have to be realy careful, not more than a couple thou at the time, slow and eazy and it is not eazy with the drill press as it's method of raising the table is not very precise, and it's best to lock the spindle right at the top so it has minimun play, I used a milling cutter that I bought at the flea markets for a couple of $ ,and it wasn't very sharp either, but it worked.
Again, the key word is SAFETY!!
Take care.

kats1719
5th Jan 2006, 10:19 PM
Hi if you dont haxe eney luck with a small engineering shop you can post it to me with a small diagram fo wat you wont and i will do it for you in my mill. please dont put a milling cutter in your drill press .this will end in tears

Schtoo
6th Jan 2006, 01:31 AM
Find someone nearby with a mill. No point killing yerself trying to do it by hand. Regardless of what you try, it's unlikely to be pretty, and might not even be functional.

I've been playing with steel non-stop for nearly 2 months now, and I might attempt it, but would definitely farm it out if I could. I would also try to find a work around. Maybe 2 layers of steel, one with the slot, one without and screw or weld them together.

Even drilling a series of holes isn't garanteed to produce a decent end result. Tried that, and it got ugly very quickly. Luckily I could work around the ugliness... ;)

JDarvall
6th Jan 2006, 05:33 AM
Thanks fellas.

Sounds like I should definetly give the drill press idea a miss.

Really need the bottom of the groove to be neat. The rest can be a little messy as long as the bottoms' flat.

Just one more quiry....

What if, I still use the drill press, but don't slide the piece accross the bit whilst its spinning ? I mean, can you get flat bottom mill bits ? And just drill a series of holes straight down.... sliding the piece over and locking the vise fixed between each drill .....

What I want to ultimately do is cut new knicker(spur) grooves in a Record 43 plough plane. Those trendy little cheap planes. I want to a install sliding spurs, one on either side of its thin skate, just in front of the blade.....like the spurs of the Stanley 55.

I've considering making one out of wood, but cause the cut I want the plane to make is so thin, I was worried a wood example of it would be too weak. The record 43's almost perfect for the job, bar the spurs for the type of cross grain cut I want to make. The rest of the metal work I'm pretty shore I can do myself.

Whats more these spur grooves ideally should taper in depth as well, so the business end of the spurs protrude out the most.

Maybe a bit too tricky for me. Was hoping brainstorming the idea may bring answers. Guess your right Steve,,,the darkside can be a little too hard sometimes. Anyway, thanks everyone :)

Ashore
6th Jan 2006, 11:10 AM
Mate try drilling a line of holes & then using a small cold chisel the right width chisel it out , had to do something similar as a trainee as a test piece.
You can also try drilling with a flat bottom drill , small ones take a bit of grinding though


Rgds

Russell

Schtoo
6th Jan 2006, 10:29 PM
You could use the milling cutter (square endmill I guess) and drill down, but I'd be worried about chatter, simply because these bits do cut on the sides, where a drill doesn't. I know all about chatter now let me tell you. ;)

That, and milling cutters don't really drill very well as it is. It's why drill bits are still used a lot...

If you could find an endmill smaller than your 5mm slot, so it cuts on one side, you might stop any chance of chatter, but then you run foul because a drill press isn't rigid enough to take much side loading, so you end up with a slot that doesn't have square sides.

Can you make that slot run all the way up? Maybe a couple pieces of steel to either side of the 'slot' screwed down to the main body? Either a through slot/channel or a flat piece with stuck on sides is going to be much easier to do at home. If yer anything like me, you are loathe to take it to someone who might charge money for something that you should be able to do yourself, right?



(Psst. Hey, Aplicot. If it were me, I'd rig up a good router with a bit I wouldn't mind trashing, some way to securely guide the hunk of steel with good control and take really small cuts. Like a few thou at a time and slowly chip away at it. Yeah, someone here will scream foul, but I have done it and it works great. Just need to make sure you keep the metal out of the router. A double edged sword on the router though. You don't want to use a good one because you might hurt it, but a cheap router doesn't have the rigidity to do the job well. Your call, but that's what I would do, and have done. Just don't tell anyone else, ok? ;))

kats1719
6th Jan 2006, 11:07 PM
Just a thort is there a model engineering club near you or a miniatur raliway. If you ask some of there members i think thay may be able to help you. hear is a link to sydney live stemers http://www.pnc.com.au/~wallison/slsls.htm

JDarvall
7th Jan 2006, 12:05 PM
Thanks Ashore,,,with your guidance I'd might pull it off. Don't feel too confident with a cold chisel on such a small object. Thinking I might crack the plane up.

Thanks Kats for the miniture railroad idea. Should look into that.

Hi Schoo,

If yer anything like me, you are loathe to take it to someone who might charge money for something that you should be able to do yourself, right?
Absolutely. We are similar that way. I feel I should be able to do it myself. Avoids that anxiety of being overcharged as well. It just seems easier overall somehow for me to do it my way. Even if I stuff it up, having to avoid involving others, seems relieving almost sometimes. Besides, one learns things when you do it yourself, eh. :) Not that I ever not appreciate offers of help from others.

(Psst. Hey, Aplicot. If it were me, I'd rig up a good router with a bit I wouldn't mind trashing, some way to securely guide the hunk of steel with good control and take really small cuts. Like a few thou at a time and slowly chip away at it. Yeah, someone here will scream foul, but I have done it and it works great. Just need to make sure you keep the metal out of the router. A double edged sword on the router though. You don't want to use a good one because you might hurt it, but a cheap router doesn't have the rigidity to do the job well. Your call, but that's what I would do, and have done. Just don't tell anyone else, ok? ;))[/quote]
:D :D Love that sort of advice..... I think I might give your idea a go. This is where this grooves going into. A record 43. Its a small plane alright (see first photo)

The grooves going just in front of the main blade, to hold a nicker blade. (I've pensiled in a mark). In the middle of the groove I'll drill a hole and tap it so I can bolt the nicker in. The small bolt head gonna have to be countersunk so its close to flush to the side of the skate.
(see second photo)

Anyway,,,,what I'm thinking to do it with the router, like you suggested, I'll have to clamp it down to a table top stable first. Thinking, carving up a block of wood that fits all the bulging bits of metal to fit between the table and the plane. And screwing it down somehow through one of the planes holes. So, it ant moving.

Then, I'm guessing, I'll need a stable flat platform for the router to sit. So maybe make a little jig table to sit above the clamped down plane. With a little fence on it. Then take very very shallow passes. Dropping the router bit with the micro adjust screw on the router.....What you think ?

And as for safety. I'll go over board. I don't have a bullet proof vest. But, I've got a thin foam sleep over mattrass. I'll wrap it around me tight (tie it on with a rope), wear my welding face sheild (and saftey goggles under that), cricket pads and gloves.....and a little dutch courage...and I should be right ....And if I hurt myself when something explodes like a grenade, its all yo... MY fault !!! :p nah !no one to blame but myself. :D

Studley 2436
7th Jan 2006, 01:30 PM
Ripper I wouldn't let a router get anywhere near it. My mate the machinist tells me that a HSS bit for cutting that sort of groove should go at 500rpm

A tungsten bit might be up to 2000rpm compared to 23000 in your router

The bit will glow red hot and loose its edge before attempting to weld itself to the job and disintetrating which will stuff your cricket pads for sure. Thats if you are lucky. If you aren't lucky it will bite break the bit and the job and the fixture as well and bits of everything will go everywhere. Which again will wreck your pads

It is an obvious job for a file and hacksaw. A millsaw file can be used to produce an extremely accurate flat bottom. If it has to be better you can make a scraper from an old file or plane blade.

Don't go near it with a router!!!!!!!!

Get an engineering shop with a mill or use a file and hacksaw

We need your dry humour a bit longer.

Studley

JDarvall
7th Jan 2006, 01:47 PM
Ok Studley, ,,,,you sound like you know what your saying. (:eek: So, do you Schoo !... :confused: so, many bloody opinions floating around arn't there. I don't know who to believe),,,,Its a shame though, I was looking forward to it. And those cricket pads, well, haven't worn them since I was 16 anyway (actually they probably don't fit anymore :rolleyes: ).....More worried about the mattrass actually:p

Anyway, RodM has kindly offered his help. Offers like that don't come often, and I much appreciate it, and I might take him up on it. Just not entirely sure if the designs right yet anyway. I'm changing my mind every couple of hours. I'm now thinking of a way that should avoid cutting a groove altogether....

Thanks for your concern though, eh. (I was never really going to do it anyway :o )

Jake :)

Schtoo
7th Jan 2006, 04:10 PM
There's always one...

Studley, better tell your machinist mate that I am still waiting for the bit to hand granade on me and remove body parts. No kidding.

Might also want to inform all the CNC tool making mobs that they aren't doing it right. 20,000rpm on tungsten isn't uncommon anymore.

Not that I am saying it is a great idea, simply that it can be done. Not quickly, but the end result is very neat and tidy provided the proper care is taken.

On what I did, the bit was the weakest part of the whole thing, and I couldn't even see the bit as it was under a slab of steel that tips the scales close to 5kg. I got what I needed, not hiccups. I'll even post a pic when I get the lathe to a point where I am happy to show pics of it.

Might even be tomorrow. :)


Why did I do it? So I can eventually make a milling machine so I don't have to do that kinda wacky stuff anymore. Big pucker factor while doing it, which is why while I HAVE done it, I can't say it's a great idea to anyone. ;)

JDarvall
7th Jan 2006, 04:42 PM
Bugger....I just put my cricket stuff back into the attic....you mean I'll have to get it all down again !!!....Do you know how hard it is to get into my attic !!:rolleyes:

Down goes the yo-yo....and wako...LOOK ! Itsssss come up again.

If you've done it already, confidently, Schoo...then it must be passable. Geez If you can do it ! ..Well, I definetly shouldn't have any problem :p

I'm going to try it out on a piece of scrap first. I've got a couple of old router bits to play with anyway. Just to see what happens. Sounds like fun too....except having to get back into the attic.

Love to see pictures, Schoo. No grenade shrapnel eh ?......by the way, how can I avoid getting little bits of metal in the router ?

:)

Studley 2436
7th Jan 2006, 05:28 PM
There's always one...


Might even be tomorrow. :)


Why did I do it? So I can eventually make a milling machine so I don't have to do that kinda wacky stuff anymore. Big pucker factor while doing it, which is why while I HAVE done it, I can't say it's a great idea to anyone. ;)
Geeze Schtoo you are taking a bit risk. The real high rates they get are on very modern machines that have a constant supply of coolant/lubricant to the cutter on an extremely rigid machine tool. With a hand held router and no coolant? Wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Heard plenty of horror stories about bits that just shat themselves even in these machine just because they weren't properly lubricated.

Allright I was telling the worst option but anyway Ripper is off to our common mates place to do it properly. Scarey stuff doing it handheld

Studley

JDarvall
7th Jan 2006, 07:15 PM
Geeze Schtoo you are taking a bit risk. The real high rates they get are on very modern machines that have a constant supply of coolant/lubricant to the cutter on an extremely rigid machine tool. With a hand held router and no coolant? Wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Heard plenty of horror stories about bits that just shat themselves even in these machine just because they weren't properly lubricated.
Studley

You've got a good point.... To the inexperienced, like me, its most probably best left alone.

I do have a drilling lubricant though. Expensive pro stuff that speeds up regular twist bit drilling....maybe that could be applied here...? I don't know.

Change the topic slightly.....How easy is it to drill and tap tool steel ? I've had plenty of experience with soft and cast steels.....what I want to know is..

Can I get myself an old plane or chisel blade and drill/tap a hole in it easy enough ? Have any of you guys tried that. Spose I could go out to the shed and try for myself.......or must you drill/tap it BEFORE you harden and temper it.

See, I'm thinking about making my own spurs out of old blades. And the spur I'm looking at right now, is from a stanley 46, which has a taped hole in to take a bolt. Like the design. Am thinking of copying it. But, with my limited tempering skills, was hoping all I have to do, to make my own, is to cut up an old blade, and just drill/tap a hole in it.

bsrlee
7th Jan 2006, 07:51 PM
Moyles & Blackwoods both sell carbide tipped burrs - not milling cutters - that are very much like the HSS burrs you have illustrated from the Carbatec catalog. They are designed for use in handheld tooling cutters - sort of a Dremel on steroids - for doing just the thing you want to do.

Just set the drill on a fairly low speed, and make sure you have both the vise & job well bolted down - vise to drill table, job clamped and/or bolted to the vise (in addition to clamping it between the jaws).

Your main problem will be getting one the right size - I have a feeling that a square end cutting burr may only come in 1/8 & 1/4 (3.15 & 6.35mm) sizes. If allelse fails, get a 1/8 inch Dremel carbide burr from HobbyCo or another hobby shop - you will just have to make 2-3 passes.

Schtoo
7th Jan 2006, 10:19 PM
Not hand held, not that crazy.

Router bolted to a piece of MDF, that then clamped to my workbench, a piece of 4x4 ash clamped down to bench/MDF and a piece of 50x50x6mm steel angle as the fence. Router is a Makita RP910, which is about as good and they get for rigidity and bits set properly in the router. Router hooked up to a nice, healthy, dedicated vac/dc thing to take all the bits away.

And really REALLY small cuts. The router has an adjusting screw, 10mm x 1.0 pitch, and I was going maybe 0.05mm per pass.

No real hiccups, simply because I took things very slowly. For Jake's thing there, this 'method' is probably useless, only because it's asking too much of a little bit and the piece simply doesn't have the size to get a good handle on it to control the thing. What I was doing was long, heavy and easy to control.

The router didn't get any junk in it because the cooling fan blows towards the bit, the base is designed to take the dust away and I have the dedicated vac for the router. Not much mess at all really.

The bits, I did make one POS die, but the other POS has held up very well. No good bits were harmed in this lunacy. ;)

Using an endmill on ally works amazingly well too. Again, not a great idea but it does work.

Now, once the lathe is working to a satisfactory level, I attack the milling machine, just so I can do this stuff without any trouble. :D

Schtoo
7th Jan 2006, 10:25 PM
Not much chance drilling into hardened steel, and even less chance of tapping a thread into it. Actually, call it zero.

I did notice today while reading a big cattledog here that they had stuff to drill and cut (not grind) stuff up to Rockwell 60C, but the cheapest one I saw was over $300...

You will have to anneal the stuff first if it's an old blade or drill and tap before you harden something new.

Do you have to put threads into tool steel? It's just that once hardened, it becomes a little fragile, and cut threads might be asking for trouble.

Does the adjuster have to be flush with the sides, or can it stick out? If it can stick out, there are plenty of ways to clamp the nicker without making it anything more elaborate than a knife.

Ashore
7th Jan 2006, 10:48 PM
Change the topic slightly.....How easy is it to drill and tap tool steel ? I've had plenty of experience with soft and cast steels.....what I want to know is..

To soften the spot use a stick welder , strike a good arc on the spot , both sides grind flat , do it all again then try a cobalt drill, these are within a dollar or two of good quality twist drills of the same size, Mitre 10 sell them
Depending on the size mabye use two , the smaller as a pilot drill ,
As to tapping , best of luck , the welder may have softened it enough for a good quality tap but I don't know

As to the slot you can buy a gouge chisel used to cut keyways but if you can get it milled then go for it

Rgds

JDarvall
8th Jan 2006, 12:37 PM
From Ashore:
To soften the spot use a stick welder , strike a good arc on the spot , both sides grind flat , do it all again then try a cobalt drill, these are within a dollar or two of good quality twist drills of the same size, Mitre 10 sell them
Depending on the size mabye use two , the smaller as a pilot drill ,
As to tapping , best of luck , the welder may have softened it enough for a good quality tap but I don't know

As to the slot you can buy a gouge chisel used to cut keyways but if you can get it milled then go for it
Thanks Ashore. Especially like the advice on using the welder. I'm worried that I'll have trouble pinpointing the right spot with such a small blade. I don't want to anneal too close to the business end of the blade. I'm not that handy with a welder. But, I'm going to remember that idea for larger blades. Bound to be useful in the future.

Looks like I'm going to totally abandon the router idea.....

From Schtoo:
Not much chance drilling into hardened steel, and even less chance of tapping a thread into it. Actually, call it zero.

I did notice today while reading a big cattledog here that they had stuff to drill and cut (not grind) stuff up to Rockwell 60C, but the cheapest one I saw was over $300...

You will have to anneal the stuff first if it's an old blade or drill and tap before you harden something new.

Do you have to put threads into tool steel? It's just that once hardened, it becomes a little fragile, and cut threads might be asking for trouble.

Does the adjuster have to be flush with the sides, or can it stick out? If it can stick out, there are plenty of ways to clamp the nicker without making it anything more elaborate than a knife.

Well, I might have to also abandon the idea of making my own spurrs. The first picture shows the no.46 spur. I don't know how it was made, but maybe, like you said it was quite difficult to do, since thread gets quite fragile once hardened.

Maybe thats why it was abandoned in latter designs. Second picture shows the spur of my Stanley 55. Its slotted, but not tapped. This one I'd have more trouble making I think.

Yes, the spur really does have to be flush with the sides of skate, cause I want to make the cross-grain cut in wood as fine as possible. Not much wider than the width of the skate as it is. Unfortunetly. I agree, it be a sinch if I didn't have a need for a groove.

One thing I forgot to mention also, I want 2 spurs. One on each side of the skate !..... So, now realising the Record 43 isn't really ideal to hold 2 spurrs. I'm switching to the Record 44 instead. Its a longer plane, with an identical skate width. This way I can put 2 spurrs in, one either side, but offset, so their set bolts don't overlap.

What I am now thinking would be best, instead of using spurs like the ones in the first 2 pictures. I'll use the old 3 point spurrs. 3rd picture. Their cheap as chips and I can make them depth adjustable by allowing them to swivel. See, the problem, I reakon, with these spurs is usually they arn't allowed to swivel, which means you can't really adjust their depth. Stanley 78's and 45's have them this way.

So, can I do this Schoo. I know I'm not using a router bit like in the picture, but can I get a bit, with a similar diameter, to just drill straight down on the drill press, only say 1-2mm, like I've drawn in that last picture. That way I can get this 3-point spur flush and still let it spin for height adjustment......Or maybe I could use the router, and have everything static. And just lower it slowly with a lubricant..?? Shorely theres a safe way I can do it at home. Must be a flat bottomed recess.

Hopefully whatever bit I use, it'll last long enough to make a recess on the other side as well for the second spurr. ?

Hey, thanks everyone for finding the time to go through this with me. :)

JDarvall
8th Jan 2006, 06:45 PM
Still thinking about this idea. :o Draggin it on a bit. Sorry.

I've never used a end mill ever. So, might be a stupid question.

But, I'm concerned of the affects of drilling on the edge of a piece of metal....With that last idea, of drilling a recess for the 3-point spurr, the end mill (if I should use a end mill to begin with) will overhang a little.....Is that a worry ?

Also, I noticed a lot of End mills on E-bay. Just need one. What sort of end mill should I look for ?

Thanks

Ashore
8th Jan 2006, 07:46 PM
As long as you don't have excessive play in your drill press And the job is clamped securely with no movement Then take it easy and you should be OK ,
End mill go with a quality brand

JDarvall
8th Jan 2006, 08:21 PM
Ta Ashore. Reashoring advice. :rolleyes: . Seriously, it is. Thanks. I'll try and work out where I can get a good deal on one. :)

ClintO
8th Jan 2006, 08:31 PM
you could have done it by hand with a drill and file by now.

I'm curious about the reference to loving Ubeaut and the American Woodwork forum, has the forum been outsourced like the rest iof Australian industry

kats1719
8th Jan 2006, 08:32 PM
Hi agane what you need is a slot drill NOT a end mill see pic bellow. The one on the left is an end mill if you are going to plung down in to the work peace it will leave a small lumo in the senter the one on the raght is a slot drill this will not leave a lump in the senter if it is a high speed steel slot drill then 80-100 rpm will do just fine no need for coolant asuming the metal you are working is cast iron

JDarvall
8th Jan 2006, 08:47 PM
:D
you could have done it by hand with a drill and file by now.
But I just, NOW, worked out exactly what I wanted to do. Could you make a nice job of it with just a drill and file. I'm talking about that last picture I showed. How would you get your file right into the corner of that recess? I want a flat bottomed recess....not littered with marks left over from twist drill attacks. I'll attach the photo again.

I'm curious about the reference to loving Ubeaut and the American Woodwork forum, has the forum been outsourced like the rest iof Australian industry
:confused: I guess. Whats 'outsourced' mean ?

JDarvall
8th Jan 2006, 08:52 PM
Hi agane what you need is a slot drill NOT a end mill see pic bellow. The one on the left is an end mill if you are going to plung down in to the work peace it will leave a small lumo in the senter the one on the raght is a slot drill this will not leave a lump in the senter if it is a high speed steel slot drill then 80-100 rpm will do just fine no need for coolant asuming the metal you are working is cast iron

:D Small lumo...I'm going to remember that. Thanks Kats.

I'd say its something harder than cast iron, since the skates so thin. They probably made it with something a lot harder.

But thanks. Makes good sense. I'll get one of those instead. Where would you buy a slot drill from, Kats ?

kats1719
8th Jan 2006, 09:42 PM
Hare and Forbes. http://www.moyles.com.au/ places like all tools good tool shops that stock P&n Sutton thay may not have in stock but will be able to get it for you just ot give an idear of price 6mm-12mm $14- $20

Schtoo
9th Jan 2006, 02:21 AM
If you drill a hole there, and secure the 3 tipped thing with just a screw in the middle, the nicker is going to spin. You will need something else to stop it from spinning, but then most of the time you lose that depth adjustment. Maybe a cammed screw, just turn it to set the thing deeper.

It's starting to get awfully complicated though.


Let me think for a little while here. I know exactly what you want to do now, so no doubts something can be done. I'd be hunting down the fella with the mill even now though. I don't think you are going to be able to avoid it to be honest if you want something that will work without looking like an abortion. ;)


BTW, don't do the router thing, please. It's not a good idea at the best of times, and I won't be doing it again.

I now have a functioning lathe that can do it. :D

JDarvall
9th Jan 2006, 06:23 AM
From Schtoo:
If you drill a hole there, and secure the 3 tipped thing with just a screw in the middle, the nicker is going to spin. You will need something else to stop it from spinning, but then most of the time you lose that depth adjustment. Maybe a cammed screw, just turn it to set the thing deeper.

Glad we're on the same wavelength. Must say, I'm concerned about spinning too. I don't think it will though, IF, the blades sharp. But, I won't really know till I've tried, I guess.

Thinking maybe, when it starts to spin, that'll be the sign that I need to stop, and re-sharpen the spur, cause its blunt. (somehow I don't think it will spin even when it does blunten)

Let me think for a little while here. I know exactly what you want to do now, so no doubts something can be done. I'd be hunting down the fella with the mill even now though. I don't think you are going to be able to avoid it to be honest if you want something that will work without looking like an abortion. ;)

How about that slot drill idea of Kats (above)...Don't you think I could do the job easily with one of those in the drill press?

BTW, don't do the router thing, please. It's not a good idea at the best of times, and I won't be doing it again.

ok. :D

How about a router bit in a drill press ? ...maybe, drill a pilot hole first to get rid of that small 'lumo' (love that word Kats !) first...then drop in some router bits over it , with plenty of drill lubricant thrown in , to cut the recess?? or is it just another back yard abortion? (can't believe we're saying that !..:o ...lets just say 'mess' eh ?.....'abortion''s too heavy a word)

ClintO
9th Jan 2006, 08:45 AM
I wasnt having a go at you with my comment about a file and drill, but it seems to me that without metalworking machinery, tools and appropriate cooling systems (and I dont have these either) what you are proposing is dnagerous bith to yourself and your plane. Unless you have a spare one to practice on I would be looking for someone such as a model steam enthusiast to do the job in exchange for a slab.

My comment about outsourcing is that this is the Australian Woodwork forum not the American. Bad attempt at humour- my apologies

JDarvall
9th Jan 2006, 10:47 AM
Clinto:
I wasnt having a go at you with my comment about a file and drill, but it seems to me that without metalworking machinery, tools and appropriate cooling systems (and I dont have these either) what you are proposing is dnagerous bith to yourself and your plane. Unless you have a spare one to practice on I would be looking for someone such as a model steam enthusiast to do the job in exchange for a slab.

:) . of course Your right, its just I like doing things myself. Always been very independent.

An answer will come eventually. If I keep working the idea, the best process will reveal itself. Just a matter of patience. I prefer to do this, and try and forsee the result in its entireity, than to just rip into it, and 'give it a go, see what happens' . I don't want to wreck the plane. But with plenty of practise on scrap, I should be right.

. And there are a lot of dangerous things in the shed. All of which I've taught myself how to use safely. Why not something like this ?

My comment about outsourcing is that this is the Australian Woodwork forum not the American. Bad attempt at humour- my apologies

Nothing to apologise about. No fear, I never took it that way. My signitures a bad attempt at humour as well. And my Azatar picture thing. :D Just attempts to keep things light hearted. Probably should change them over anyway. Getting a bit old they are. Maybe a picture of a hand plane ??

JDarvall
9th Jan 2006, 02:50 PM
Time to stop asking questions, Jake ! I had a couple experiments on some scrap steel this morning. Took photos as I went. So, welding helmet and safty goggles ON (check), cricket pads and gloves ON (check), mattrass wrapped around waist (check), swig of rum (cheeckkckdk hick!)....:rolleyes: ...

First thing I wanted to try, was drilling into the scrap using a regular cheap router bit. Its meant for wood only.

First photo shows my basic drill press setup. Scrap clamped down. I've got an old car jack supporting under the table as well (these tables can move a under pressure...thats cheap drill presses for you)

Second photo shows the cut. Worked well enough for me. I used a drilling lubricant. Left a little 'lumo' Kats !! ......probably slot drill far better (?), but there you go......in photo I've also shown an earlier attempt at drilling with a regular flat bit for wood....and that worked ok too !!!...before the edge started to crumble :p

So what I'm thinking, is, to cut the recess for the spur.....
1. drill the pilot hole to hold the 3 point spur.
2. drill down over it with a smaller straight router bit than used in the experiment, to get rid of the 'lumo' from the middle for...
3. drilling down with the last, widest router bit, to give me the final diameter. ...???....what you think ? or just get that slot cutter.

Third photo...... not a very informative test. Just wanted to get an idea of what my plane was made of. Probably cast....and it was. Thinking maybe it had something a little harder in it. The shavings from this drill test were crumbly like. Looked like cast to me.

4th photo .... I was concerned about problems drilling on the edge of the skate...wasn't shore what to expect. So, I made a quick test. Seems passable.

5th photo....Like Schtoo mentioned, the spur may swivel in use...I made a test by screwing the spur back in its origional hole (stanley 78) with a washer between it and the plane. And tried to swivel it....wouldn't swivel ! which is good news.

What was difficult though, was stopping the spur from swivelling when tightening it up....so, I'd find the right position for the spur, tighten the screw and the whole spur would rotate with the screwdriver....tricky. Should learn to live with it. Maybe a bit more WD-40 :D ,,,and polish the hole and bolt head ???

oh just realised, Kats, thats a typo an't it.......'lumo' ...you just hit the 'o' instead of the 'p'........you mean't ....lump eh ? ......:rolleyes: :D took me a while to work that out.

Auld Bassoon
9th Jan 2006, 07:20 PM
Holy Caramba Luke,

Rather you than me :D

The sound must have been like a Torquemada "entertainment" session :eek:

I'd hate to think what happend when the carbide bit hits a pocket in the cast iron...

Anyway, you seem to have made progress. I think.

Go easy mate, we want you around here for more interesting threads, not threads of Jake :eek: :D

Cheers!

JDarvall
9th Jan 2006, 09:21 PM
From Steve :
I'd hate to think what happend when the carbide bit hits a pocket in the cast iron...
A pocket of what ? ....Steve :confused:

Anyway, you seem to have made progress. I think.
Maybe. :rolleyes:

Go easy mate, we want you around here for more interesting threads, not threads of Jake :eek: :D
Hey, nothing to worry about...Situation was always in control...I had my cricket pads on ! :D

Haven't done much metal drilling before, so I'm a little confused as to what the fuss was about. They cut quite well...That was mild steel. Shouldn't cast cut even easier ?....Makes me think that if I get a proper bit ...like maybe a slot cutter or end mill....it be like spreading butter.....I don't know.

But, thanks for your concern, Steve. :)

kats1719
9th Jan 2006, 11:20 PM
Hi you finaly figerd out my typo. Cast iron will cut very nicley if you stow the cutter down to 80-100 rpm dont use eney lubricant cast iron has a bit of grafite in the mix it will act as the lubricant. You may wont to go back to your original plan of cutting a slot just dont brack throw the outer edge and file the last little bit out by hand. Use that two way cross slide vice and take your time.

Studley 2436
9th Jan 2006, 11:29 PM
OK about steel
Tool Steel is high quality stuff with a carbon content. This means it can be hardened. Mild Steel doesn't have the carbon is lower quality so can't be hardened without some addition of carbon such as heating in with an oxy torch.

Tool Steel is very hard as it comes but can be drilled and tapped before hardening and any other heat treatment.

Cast Iron is iron with lots and lots of carbon. This means it can work harden very easily, for a demo of this take a file to a brake disc from a car it will blunt your file.

Cast Iron when heated melts quiet suddenly when it reaches melting point and runs like butter. This is what makes it so great for casting with pour it in and it runs easily into a mould.

So tool steel will drill in your drill press allright. I like your clamping methods and they are good to use because it can bite easily and spin around in the press on you. You can tap it as well a T wrench though may not give you enough leverage. Some cutting compound will help you too. You can buy 250g cans approx from various places. It is a grease of some sort with an abrasive added. All else failing plain old grease will help the tap go through. Remember to wind it a 1/2 turn in and then back 1/4 then forward 1/2 until you reach the bottom. You do this to break the chip.

Studley

JDarvall
13th Jan 2006, 07:47 PM
Thanks Kats and Studley.... good info in that. Just gota try and make it work in practice.

Is Cast that prone to work hardening. Must I really go that slow ...80 -100 rpm to ensure it doesn't harden up on me ?

Just worried that at this speed I won't be able to cut on the edge of my work like I did above......uno, cause I'm dropping the bit by hand, its going to be jumping up and down all the time.....could try and take too large a bite at the side of the work and rip the bit to pieces.....80 rpm. I mean thats really slow an't it?......same sort of problem with overlapping holes when cutting out a groove ?

I might try and practise cutting a groove at a higher speed first on an old plane body and see what happens.....

:)

kats1719
13th Jan 2006, 09:35 PM
Trust me if you try ot go mush faster than that it will burn the tip of the cutter and work harden the cast iron you will find that the cast iron will cut very nice just klamp the thing up dead to rights

Studley 2436
13th Jan 2006, 10:07 PM
Cast Iron is really brittle too Ripper. It can throw out lots of really little chips grainy sort of stuff. Do a search on the web to find out about cutting speeds and cutting angles. I don't know what they are anymore. It isn't bad stuff to work just has to be treated with proper respect same as anything.

Studley

JDarvall
14th Jan 2006, 10:45 PM
Makes good sense felllas.

Studley, I found this table in my drill press owners manual. First picture. For a 8mm diameter bit it says use about 1000 RPM. ??? See, I thought 100 RPM was bit on the slow side. ?? Doesn't matter.. (shrug) I don't really know.

Anyway, I did another little experiment today...attempting to rout a groove in an old #4 stanley body stuffup. (a previous failed experiment. Don't ask). Cast iron. Using that 2-way vise Kats suggested. Second picture

I fixed the quill so it wouldn't go up and down.. Clamped everything up. and just wound the body of the plane very ,veryslowly into the spinning bit...and to my complete surprise, Brilliant !....Third picture. The router bit seemed to survive the experience. No nicks. Didn't seem to blunten any. No chatter. Quite effortless actually. Your right, cast does cut nicely. Essentially this is just like a milling machine .. yes?

So, theres is the sort of groove I'm after to take the stanley 46 or 55 type spurs, which seem to be far better than the 3-point ones I was 'almost' going to use. :rolleyes: . Schtoo your right. They will be prone to spinning. Just kidding myself they wouldn't. They don't seem to if the spin is in the direction of the tightening bolt. But if other direction...bolt will losen.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your imput. I should be able to mill a couple of grooves in my Record 44 no problem now.

:)

Schtoo
14th Jan 2006, 11:34 PM
I'm sitting here giggling actually. Bloody good trick there my man. :D

That worked really nicely. I'd like to be able to do that kinda thing with my drill press, but it's a cheap Chiwanese thing that came with a loose rattle as standard, so I don't think it will put up with that kinda thing.

The lathe should be fine though. Hafta make up an x-y table for it I think...