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dan81
18th Dec 2005, 06:53 PM
hi guys,

i want to learn how to weld. ive done some small stick work, but nothing major (mainly tacking bits here and there). main reason i want to work is so that i can make things for my car, as well as general things along the way. im guessing a stick welder isnt going to do it for me.

i dont know much about welding in general, but willing to learn. i cant go to tafe due to my job (pays well, but the hours are too eratic and tafe wouldnt suit) i have considered going into an engineering place and offering to sweep floors/whatever in return for teaching me some things, but again, im not sure that that would be the best idea either.

atm, i dont have a welder, and am looking to buy one that would suit me.

i have seen cheaper migs on the market, but after reading up on them, not knowiong what the deal is, i get lost pretty quickly.

would i be better off buying a cheaper mig, and working it out from there, or should i get good on a cheap stick and work my way up?

any ideas on how to learn would be great,,,
thanks in advance

Edd
18th Dec 2005, 07:12 PM
Hmm tough question. It's really best to learn with stick, but a mig welder is much more convenient, if you want to pay for gas for it.
If you go for a mig welder, I recommend a lincoln electric SP170T which goes for around $1300. -If you're willing to spend that much. It's quality. I can suggest a few more machines if you give me your budget limit.

ozwinner
18th Dec 2005, 07:14 PM
hi guys,

im guessing a stick welder isnt going to do it for me.



Why not?
There is a hell of a lot you can do with a manual welder.
Migs are good too, but they take the fun/skill out of welding.

Al :)

Edd
18th Dec 2005, 07:21 PM
Why not?
There is a hell of a lot you can do with a manual welder.
Migs are good too, but they take the fun/skill out of welding.

Al :)
I agree. There are also other advantages of MMAW, such as being able to change the type of consumable electrode or the diameter without pulling out the whole roll of wire out of a mig machine. It's just unclamp and clamp again.

Grahame Collins
18th Dec 2005, 07:47 PM
Hi Dan
To answer your question completely you do need to give a bit more info. What sort of things ?Specific detail would be vert helpful.
You wish to learn welding to make things for your car.The varied things one could make for a car with welding are as varied as the processes ( stick mig Oxy welding ) that might be utilised im making those items.
If you are contemplating rust panel repair think oxy acetylene process.

As a welding instuctor I have always recommended that anyone learning electric arc welding learn stick first.

Learning the basics of stick and its charecteristics form the basis for most other forms of arc welding.
Liken it to someone getting a car liscence a opting only to sit for the automatic liscence.It limits you bigtime.
Yes you can learn mig only but you won't be as good- (read versatile) as a welder who can operate both processes and understand both methods.

Secondly equipment that is available to you needs to be considered. Buying cheap low quality equipment will serve to frustrate you in the long run.
If you are really determined to go with mig plan on an outlay of between $1000 to $2000 and buy a brand name that is known and used in the trades.All of them make decent home use models. WIA, Lincoln and Cigweld would be the brands to look at. What you intend to work on will dicatate the model/size/output.
Even GMC make a very nice little stick welder which surpised me how well it operated given its purchase price-it is also an Aussie owned company though the gear is made in China.

Give some more information for me to work with and I'll be more than happy to help.
Also do an archive search as I have already written a line or two, here in this forum re arc welding.

Cheers
Grahame

Captain Chaos
18th Dec 2005, 07:48 PM
G'day Dan81,
I'd go for a stick ( Manual Metal Arc ) welder. I've done two units of the Welders Certification Course, which concentrated principally on MMAW. I think that stick welding gives a better understanding of the welding process.
I also agree with Edd with regards to the advantages of stick welding , + you can stick weld in all positions & weld on site in windy conditions whereas with MIG ( GMAW ) welding the gas can be blown away from the weld pool & cause porosity / weld contamination - not desirable characteristics in a weldment.:eek:
You should look for a welder with around 180 - 200 amp output & approx min. 60% duty cycle if you intend to do some fairly heavy welding, e.g 6mm - 12mm plate etc. Peerless used to do a good welder for around $450 /$500 Afew years ago. I've got one & it has performed very well for what I required in regards to welding work.
I hope that this info is of some help to you. PM or e-mail me if you need a bit more info.
Regards,
Barry.
P.S Why do I seem to be contributing to more metalwork posts than woodies posts. I'm REALLY confused. :confused:;)

bob the builder
18th Dec 2005, 08:21 PM
I agree. There are also other advantages of MMAW, such as being able to change the type of consumable electrode or the diameter without pulling out the whole roll of wire out of a mig machine. It's just unclamp and clamp again.

As a fitter for 8 years who weld every day with mig stick and tig I agree learning to use a stick first is a good thing but if somone can pick up using a mig quicker and produce better welds straight up go for it. As to change electrode diameter i use a mig every day for welding every thing from 1.6 to 20mm plate and never change my wire (.9mm) thats what the wire speeds for the quicker you have it the more filler goes in to weld pool.
For every day and novice i say if you can afford the mig and bottle rent go for it.

Grahame Collins
19th Dec 2005, 01:40 AM
I have been teaching young men to weld for 28yrs or thereabouts. I will be honest .I could almost teach a monkey to mig weld.The monkey could lay a bead but would not understand the physics behind the weld.

Fitness for purpose is essential in selecting any welding process. I have seen an airconditioner frame mounted over a doorway fail and the airconditioner unit it held crash to the ground. Why ? Because the mig welded frame had a major fail.To the welding operator the finished beads probably looked ok visually but the offending beads sat on top of the underlying metal and had penetrated weakly in only a few places. The vibration of the operating aircon unit induced enough fatigue in the sparse penetrated weld to cause a fracture, Fortunately no one was injured but the potential for injury is surely there.

If a novice was to attempt fabricating and mig welding a car trailer the same failure could happen.
Primarily those of us here are woodworkers and as such strive for the highest standards and develop skills to give us those standards. Is not the skill of welding worthy of applying the same application and practice.

I have taught Mig welding students to Xray standards for pressure vessel work and do know what I speak of.
I suppose I seem a bit anti mig to some but I see too many that switch on the machine but not their brain. To some students of mig welding the machine is there to do the thinking for them.

It looks like its about time to write about a few instalments on how to set up and run the mig. Is it worth the effort ? Comments please.

Grahame

Edd
19th Dec 2005, 08:15 AM
As to change electrode diameter i use a mig every day for welding every thing from 1.6 to 20mm plate and never change my wire (.9mm) thats what the wire speeds for the quicker you have it the more filler goes in to weld pool.
Yeah so do I (0.8mm), but I was more referring to the type in that sense. Say you have a spool of copper coated steel, then you decide you want stainless. I suppose the only reason you are changing electrode size with stick is so you can keep a constant feed rate and develop the skill.

Also if you go to buy a cheaper welder, make sure it has copper coils and not aluminium, the copper conducts electricity better and lasts longer.
If you go the stick method and *might* want tig later, there are plenty of welders that offer that option if a budget allows.

Edd
19th Dec 2005, 08:28 AM
I suppose I seem a bit anti mig to some but I see too many that switch on the machine but not their brain. To some students of mig welding the machine is there to do the thinking for them.

It looks like its about time to write about a few instalments on how to set up and run the mig. Is it worth the effort ? Comments please.

Grahame
I know what you mean here. I was slightly shocked when I asked my metalwork teacher why we don't learn stick first and he said the department of education consider it to dangerous for year 9 and 10 students. The bit I didn't like was when he said "It's alright though, because mig is usually just push the button and go". He did teach us properly, but there is a lot more to it than the trigger. When I was a little younger and my father let me have a go of a welder (he wanted to do it as a hobby and then he did a tafe course for about 3 years and I read all his theory when I had nothing to do) I chose to have a crack with mig as it sounded easy, but I couldn't even make a bead. I held it as if it had recoil like an uzi :p So I decided I'd try stick, and after an afternoon of OK welds, I could do half decent mig welds. Sorry I just started rambling.

As for learning:
I can recommend a good MIG book: Theory and Practice of Gas Metal Arc Welding by S.A. Davies
And it's TIG version: Theory and Practice of Gas Tungsten Arc Welding also by S.A. Davies

Clinton1
19th Dec 2005, 08:29 AM
Yes Grahame, a "tips for young players" on welding would be good.

Dan's situation, which stops him from getting to TAFE, rules out the best way of learning - i.e. practical demo's and the ability to see and ask questions. There is an excellent series of book for the model maker (Workshop Notes?) and as much as they assist me, not being able to see things being done and to ask questions limits the value I get from this form of learning.

If you could overcome this, more power to you.

Not too sure how you would go about it though.

Some things you can learn easily from books, some things are not suited to learning from books. I think welding is one of those things, and the danger is in promoting a sense of confidence that can get people in trouble.

I'll keep an eye out for your efforts.

Edd
19th Dec 2005, 08:35 AM
There is an excellent series of book for the model maker (Workshop Notes?)
Are you referring to the Workshop Practice Series? If so, I have some of those books and they are very good. Particularly the ones written by Tubal Cain, Stan Bray and Harold Hall.

Clinton1
19th Dec 2005, 09:29 AM
Thanks Edd.
Yep, they are the ones. They sell at about $18 each from the publisher.

Can you post the publisher's name please? Dan might be interested. The publisher is on the web, so he can at least find out what titles are available.

I want to buy the whole range, but $ get in the way. :( , so I borrow them from the library.

Basic, but they cover the basics very, very well.

Edd
19th Dec 2005, 10:06 AM
Nexus Special Interest are the publishers. They are available from The Pitstop Bookshop (http://www.pitstop.net.au/pitstop/) online from $14-$20 each. After some googling, I found the Publisher's website to be here. (http://www.specialinterestmodelbooks.co.uk/)