Is a licence/permit required to make a telescopic sight adapter in WA?

[BobL]

A relative has asked me if I can make an adapter that attaches a telescopic sight to a bracket that mounts onto a licenced rifle.
SO
1) Sight, 2) Adapter, 3) Bracket and 4) Rifle
Relaltive said he will purchase 1) and 3) and already has 4)

The relative knows he will have to get a licenced gunsmith to fit all the bits together onto the rifle.

The question is does this constitute "gunsmithing" and would I need a permit or licence make this in WA?

I'd rather not get into whether it should be right or wrong - just need some kind of clarity whether I can or not.

Thanks

[Michael G]

Phone up the Police firearms branch and ask. They would prefer you do that rather than do the wrong thing (and you can't get into trouble for not doing the wrong thing :U)

I was asked to do something firearms related some time ago so did just that (phoned). It was explained to me that cosmetic mods were not a problem. What they did not want being done were mods that would increase the rate of fire or make it 'more lethal' (sorry - can't quite think of the right expression). I would have thought that a bracket to bolt together two readily available parts would be alright but I would agree better to be safe than sorry.

Michael

[.RC.]

Common sense would say you do not need a gunsmith to do anything about fitting a sight to a firearm.

But there seldom is anything common or sensible about firearm law.

[NedsHead]

Common sense would say you do not need a gunsmith to do anything about fitting a sight to a firearm.

But there seldom is anything common or sensible about firearm law.

Especially so in W.A where even spent brass is considered live ammunition and has to be kept under lock and key:?

My advice either be extra diligent or extra discreet

[China]

We have national gun laws although all states are different so yes ring the WA firearms section

[BobL]

Thanks everyone - I have emailed the WA police firearms Enquiry email address.

[familyguy]

Get a copy of the legislation it is online - in my experience an officer working in the firearms branch may or may not know the full answer. At a recent Arms fair here in S.A. I got talking with an officer attached to the firearms branch regarding modifying trigger pull - he said it is illegal to work on a gun unless you are a licensed gunsmith - period. At home I checked a downloaded copy of the legislation - yes it is illegal to carry out work on a gun if not licensed - but the legislation goes on to say that it is a defence to that clause if you hold the appropriate gun owners license, the gun is legally owned and registered by you (can't work on a friend's gun) and you are not carrying out modifications that make the gun illegal ie shorten the barrel below the legal minimum.

[.RC.]

Especially so in W.A where even spent brass is considered live ammunition and has to be kept under lock and key:?



From what I can find out that has never been tested in court to find out whether it is true or not. There is lots of supposition due to very poorly worded law.

[eskimo]

Get a copy of the legislation it is online - in my experience an officer working in the firearms branch may or may not know the full answer. At a recent Arms fair here in S.A. I got talking with an officer attached to the firearms branch regarding modifying trigger pull - he said it is illegal to work on a gun unless you are a licensed gunsmith - period. At home I checked a downloaded copy of the legislation - yes it is illegal to carry out work on a gun if not licensed - but the legislation goes on to say that it is a defence to that clause if you hold the appropriate gun owners license, the gun is legally owned and registered by you (can't work on a friend's gun) and you are not carrying out modifications that make the gun illegal ie shorten the barrel below the legal minimum.

Yes That is correct in SA...you can do any work you like on your own firearms..but not some else's

And, you are allowed to instruct another on that other persons firearm.

Making scope mounts etc is not illegal in SA. Making any firearms parts are tho..ie trigger springs, front bead sight, etc...

but making a stock is not ..confusing

[BobL]

Got a very friendly reply from the WA Firearms Licensing centre this morning.
The reply was from a Police Officer (Sergeant) Supervisor of Firearms Licensing Services

My view is that making an adapter for a rifle scope for attachment to a bracket is not gunsmithing per se’ (especially as it’s a ‘one-of’ job for a relative with no money changing hands).
As you’ve already identified, firearms legislation does not allow you access to the firearm unless you’re licenced to it.
If your relative provides you #1 and #3; but not #4, then I don’t see a problem with you manufacturing #2.



He even wished me luck with the project.

Thanks to all who provided advice,

[BobL]

Well it's taken 12 months but my relative has finally mounted his scope.

As I said above, relative already had rifle and scope, but needed mount (bracket and adapter)

Relative learned CAD and drew up the scope mount parts.

I passed on making the parts and relative had them made by EDM.
Gunsmith drilled and tapped the holes in the barrel for the M5 of screws (see 3 vertical dashes - thats the adapter)

I made the 6 M5 x 0.5 pan head slotted screws, and also drilled and tapped 2 M4 threads for socket grubs (see arrow) that holds the bracket parts together.

Relative is very happy although he wanted slot headed grub screws but I talked him out of it.

393636

[snapatap]

Nice, Mossin Naggat. I helped a mate fit a mount to his receiver many years ago. funny bolt action, you have to treat it like you hate it or it will jam.

[BobL]

My relative has continued to futz with his scope mount.

After all the trouble I went to make 6 pan head M5, 0.5 screws for it, he decided he didn't like them and went and had other screws made for it. Even though he's a stickler for authenticity, the screws he had made are less authentic than the ones I made.

Now he wants me to "cold fume blue" the whole thing - given all the hoo-has with this, ordinarily I would not have done this, but as I said right back when all this started I would do it so I'm sticking to what I said,
Even though cold fume bluing is a long drawn out process and it's a bit stressful as I don't want to lose any piece in the process, I dont mind doing it.

Anyway I though I might detail the process in this thread for completeness.
First thing I had to do was clear a bench (or most of a bench - you can still see a 7.5HP donk in the far RH corner )
The Blue thing is an ultrasonic cleaner which comes in handy for cleaning fine threads and dirt in cracks etc.
The hotplate is to heat various things for cleaning etc , mainly for the distilled water in which the fumed parts are boiled
I'm using a sort of white drop cloth so I can more easily see the small parts - yes it does look slightly surgical and I also wear white latex gloves.
398714

First step is a polish using a fine Scotchbrite wheel and then a regular buffing wheel.
I could have gone for a much high polish but said relative could have done this so I'm not going to go too hard as the blueing will hide most of the issues.
398715

Then in the ultrasonicator in meths for 2 x 20 minute bursts
398716

Then suspend on SS wires in cold fume tank for ~20 hours
You can see the containers of concentrated Nitric and HCl in plastic containers in the bottom of the tank
398717

When they come out they look like this.
Its slightly less "rusty" than usual, I suspect I might have to change the acids
398718

Then the parts get boiled in distilled water for 20 minutes, dried, and then the loose black oxide removed using one of these wire wheels.
It's a soft wire wheel with SS 0.3mm wires.
I run it at about 1500 rpm and at that speed it doesnt matter if my fingers touch the wheel even for an extended period.
Its very efficient at removing the loose oxide even from fine threads etc
398719

After a few minutes they look like this
It doesn't look like much has happened in terms of blackness, but you can see there has been some change if you compare it to the bright steel cylinder included in the picture.
Its about what I would expect from a 1st pass.
398720

Now the parts will go back into the cold fume tank for a second pass.
I will do at least 6 passes and then see how it goes.

[jack620]

It's a soft wire wheel with SS 0.3mm wires.


Where did you get that Bob? I think they call them carding wheels?

[BobL]

Where did you get that Bob? I think they call them carding wheels?

When I looked into buying that wheel in 2020, Caswellplating.com.au had them in stock but I see they no longer have them.
Enquiries showed that Caswell.au never kept any on stock and only got them in as a special orders from the US so there was a plus 3 week shipping delay, plus delay there was a COVID delay in getting stuff from east to west coast so for about $2 extra I bought mine on ebay direct from the US and it got to me in <3weeks.

Caswells in the US also sold them but their shipping was . . . . OUCH!
I see they currently don't have them on their website.

The ebay sells description was Steel Wire Wheel Straight 6" Jewelry Cleaning Deburring Finish Soft Metal (https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11401.m1842.l5919/7?euid=61c113340b10435e93fa7df6f58a987d&bu=43407230450&segname=11401&crd=20201012075855&osub=-1~1&ch=osgood&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fvod%3Fitemid%3D184420805897%26transid%3D2166509599008%26qu%3D1&sojTags=bu=bu,ch=ch,segname=segname,crd=crd,url=loc,osub=osub)

The seller was https://www.ebay.com.au/str/waymilllc a jewellery supplies store but they also no longer have any steel wire carding wheels, all they sell are soft bristle carding brushes. These would work on most surfaces but I dont think they would be as good on fine thread etc.

[kwijibo99]

Thanks for the bluing post Bob, very nicely done.
With regards to the brush, I just ordered the following from Brownells Australia:

https://www.brownells.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=13431&search=Grobet+Brushing+wheel&manu_id=1697

Delivered for $61.88, 21 day wait as stock is in the US but I only paid for domestic shipping from Canberra.
Cheers,
Greg.

[familyguy]

The blueing looks good, rust blueing is something I've always wanted to try, it is supposed to be the best but takes the most work.

[jack620]

I just ordered the following from Brownells Australia:

https://www.brownells.com.au/index.p...oduct_id=13431


When I click on that link, it takes me to the Brownells site, but it says "Error 404 Page Not Found". Happens in both Safari and Firefox. I had the same issue with another forum thread. Anyone else?

[kwijibo99]

Go to the Brownells Australia site and search for:
Grobet Brushing Wheels .0025" Stainless Steel 4 Row.

[BaronJ]

Hi Guys,

The link is incomplete !

"https://www.brownells.com.au/index.php?route=product/search&search=Grobet%20brushing%20wheels"

[China]

From past experience Brownells Australia is just a satellite service everything I have ever ordered had to come from the US, now I just order straight from the US

[jack620]

Is it cheaper or faster ordering direct from the US?

[BobL]

Is it cheaper or faster ordering direct from the US?

Cost depends on shipping which from the US can be expensive.
Mine ended up costing about $2 more but I reckon it got to me faster.
I also saw Brownwells had them for sale but I didn't buy from then because the ordering process required me to accept them sending me advertising - its a small thing but they lost my sale over it.

[jack620]

I also saw Brownwells had them for sale but I didn't buy from then because the ordering process required me to accept them sending me advertising - its a small thing but they lost my sale over it.

I just accept that is going to happen now and Unsubscribe when the first advertising email arrives.

[BobL]

I just accept that is going to happen now and Unsubscribe when the first advertising email arrives.

Yeah I have done that but I figure it was worth the $2 and I got it faster. Also I found that unsubscribing doesn't always work. 10 years ago I bought something from Bretts trucks and I must have unsubscribed a dozen times but they still keep coming. I set up filters on my email but every now at then they change their address so they still keep coming. I then inserted more key words into the filters but then they started using images!!!!!

[kwijibo99]

The carding brush arrived from Brownells last Thursday so that's 25 days but I'm happy with that when they wear the cost of shipping from the US.

399040

Quality is very nice and not a single email from Brownells since the original order confirmation so no spam issues.
I'm marking this up as a winner.
Cheers,
Greg.

[eskimo]

Is it cheaper or faster ordering direct from the US?

they do keep some stock here, I got a melting pot ...only took 5 days

[China]

Was that recent purchase, looking to replace (gunsmith made of with mine)