CNC Purchase advice Tormach or...???

[Arty Marty]

I'm after a CNC for working with plastic, aluminium, perhaps a little steel.

People have suggested a Tormach, it's a little out my budget. Well lot out of it actually, but I want something decent.

Any suggestions? I was looking at a tormach 440.
Originally I was looking at some sort of cnc kit from China however I don't want to spend the next 12 months screwing around to get it working well. I want to make stuff!

Open to second hand stuff if anyone has something suitable

[caskwarrior]

CNC is pretty much a pay to play kind of arena. Either go the home hobby route and cobble something together, or pony up. There isn't really a middle ground afaik.

You could grab an early 80s machine like an Okuma and Howa or other older iron. The controls are surprisingly well thought out even on ancient stuff. But the problem is they need real air, real power and real rigging to move them. Followed by real patience and reading the documentation about 30 times.

Not long back a friend was looking what it would cost to get an essentially free DMG home and it gets really expensive really fast.

There are cheaper Asian tormach competitors like syil etc but the controls are pretty patchy and support is non existent here.

[Sterob]

I assume you are familar with the workings of CNC?
I mean, you are not a complete novice?

How much do you want to spend?
What sort of cutting area do you want?

[elanjacobs]

CNC is pretty much a pay to play kind of arena. Either go the home hobby route and cobble something together, or pony up. There isn't really a middle ground afaik.
:aro-u: This

It's the eternal "I want quality but can't afford it" thing, I see the same question on the woodwork forum all the time and the answer is the same: If you don't have the skills and/or time do build one yourself, you gotta pay for someone who does.

[Arty Marty]

I'm not a total novice, but far from an expert.
I've done a bit of work on lathes, and I'm pretty good with Fusion360 designing stuff from scratch and 3D printing it. I'm aware of the differences of subtractive processes as apposed to additive.

I've pretty much totally rebuilt my 3D printer (Aldi cocoon touch / wanhao rebrand) there isn't much left that is original parts on that. It now prints really really good, and currently upgrading parts of it again so I can print in nylon too.

So that's where I'm coming from.

As far as work area goes, 15" x 15" x 5" should be plenty for what I have in mind at the moment.

Thanks for your responses so far.

Oh an budget would be nice around $4k to 8k.. But I understand you get what you pay for...

[caskwarrior]

Personally I'd look at a second hand behemoth. It's the only chance you have of getting something capable in your budget. You'll still blow the budget by miles but it'll happen over time rather than all at once.

[elanjacobs]

Syil actually are distributed locally now https://au.syil.com/mini-cnc-mill , still gonna be over budget though

If you don't want to/can't go giant size, maybe look at the stuff aimed at the hobby woodworkers:
https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/CNC-ROUTING-MACHINE-600-X-900MM-W-2-2KW-3HP-AIR-COOLED-SPINDLE-COMPLETE-WITH-STAND-RS6090/175998/
https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/CNC-Router-700x900/461766/
https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/CNC-Router-Machine/295389/

You won't be chasing microns with them, but you'll get your work area and then some. You also won't be able to do anything ferrous; plastic, brass and aluminium only.

[Arty Marty]

@caskwarrior had a look for a behemoth, couldn't really find anything? Do you have a link?

[caskwarrior]

Oh no I just meant something ancient and enormous.

[Arty Marty]

Oh no I just meant something ancient and enormous.


Haha that's what I thought, but I googled it just in case and there were quite a few DIY creations that people had called "behemoth"

[Michael G]

If you are only going to do plastic and Al, have a look on ebay for CNC routers. They will probably do the job. If you are a you tube fan, then look up the videos by "this old tony". He has a CNC router (home made-ish) and I think he has (very carefully) even used it on steel.

Michael

[elanjacobs]

Found a couple of behemoths, possibly too big? :p:rolleyes:
https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/TOSHIBHA-CNC-Horizontal-Milling-BMC50/361798/
https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/OOYA-machining-milling-centre/299073/

[Arty Marty]

You wally @elanjacobs They wouldn't fit in my suburb, let alone my house.

[Arty Marty]

Thanks MICHAEL, great recommendation!
I've been watching "this old Tony" for ages. He's probably the main raeason I haven't totally written off DIY CNC

[snapatap]

I wouldn't bother with a industrial second hand machine on that budget. If a board or power supply goes in the control you will spend your budget again on parts.

[Arty Marty]

Well after seeing the extent This Old Tony went to to build a stable CNC, that's out.

I've been thinking about getting an optimum mill for around $2500 and then converting it to cnc using some nema34 motors.
Also adding a ball screw conversion and coolant kit.

The way I figure it will be 100x more stable than a Chinese diy cnc
And half to a third of the price of q tormach. I know the tormach is heaps better but I think this might be good enough for my needs.

Thoughts?

[jatt]

Always interesting to see what home workshop guys come up with.

But I'm with
caskwarrior --

CNC is pretty much a pay to play kind of arena.


Went to National Manufacturing Week this year at Jeff's Shed. Wasn't even game enough to ask the price on the stuff I was casually looking at....

[elanjacobs]

Some awesome toys at NMW, very much a case of "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" :rolleyes:
Taiwanese machining centres can be had new under 100k, but once you move to Japanese/European I'd imagine starting prices are well into the 6-figure range for 3-axis, our DMG Mori 5-axis was a cool million bucks

[jatt]

Taiwanese machining centres can be had new under 100k, but once you move to Japanese/European I'd imagine starting prices are well into the 6-figure range for 3-axis, our DMG Mori 5-axis was a cool million bucks

Yep she sure adds up, espec when you start throwing tooling at it. That yellow thing in my signature block (not even a proper "CNC" by definition) was supposed to be a 6-figure commitment. Scaled down the table size from standard base model - shop space/$ issues :C to make it work in practice. Less than a year to go tho and its fully mine :)

[elanjacobs]

This one looks like it has potential. Ball screws and prismatic rails on all axes and a decent amount of power https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCUPKkaWlVg

[KBs PensNmore]

I bought a 6040 machine that had been upgraded by the owner, (an electrician) it was a plug and play situation. Only trouble is I plugged it in, but I can't play on it as though I was shown how, it happened that fast I'd forgotten most of it.
So unless you're real savvy with CNC, it's a REAL learning climb, not a curve.
Kryn

[Arty Marty]

I'm assuming it's like 3d printing. Huge learning curve at the start then it kinda starts to click after a while. After you have learnt the same 10 things over and over they all suddenly stick and it starts to make sense.

I'm assuming cnc is basically the same as the 3D design for 3d printing (except you're removing instead of adding)
And it's a bit more important to keep in mind the order, direction and speed you remove stuff. Also multiple tools for the same item. (like having a bunch of different size filaments made of different stuff that you would mix together)

Anyway, I'm sure it will be fun and rewarding.

[Arty Marty]

So I've been looking at some of the chinese 6090 routers, which have a very solid build (Welded or cast frame, not extruded), and then I found an interesting thing...
|
A 6060 mold making machine.
The work area is a little smaller than 6090, however the x axis is a moving bed and the head only movies Y and Z so it is very precise.

It's also made for doing aluminium.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Widely-Used-Mini-Small-3-Axis_62075093578.html

there are a bunch that look similar, but you will get the general idea from that.
I'd also like to know, how do you find out who *MAKES* the thing. they all SAY they do, but clearly there is ONE factory who makes them and everyone does a re-badge.

Anyone had any experience or thoughts on these particular cnc mills??

[caskwarrior]

I don't think any usable mould would ever come off a router. That's just a straight up lie. You would really have to look at something like a datron.

I have seen that cast iron router kits in roughly that size are available though.

[MasterSpoon]

What are you planning to make ? What material and how big ?

No point spending heaps on a machine that won't suit your needs in the end. If you are new to CNC and wanting something to play and not planning on hard materials might be best to get something cheap to cut your teeth. You are correct in that it's similar to 3D printing but it is a bit more involved. You need to pay a lot more attention to work holding, orientation, order of processes, ect ect. You also need to account for tooling costs, it's not buying a $20 roll of filament, it's the tool holders, milling cutters, special cutters for anything fancy you might wish to do.

I have a Taig CNC which I have had for years, I'd hazard a guess it's as rigid if not more then the bigger routers. Would be heaps more rigid then like a 6040 CNC. I find that the small work envelope is a pain but I can normally work around it. The beauty of it is I have it inside the house in an enclosure, so you don't need workshop space for it so you still have space to buy some bigger, heavier machines.

If you consider the DIY route check out David DeCaussin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISzkthutKnA

Marco Reps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvqjIOG0fi0

[mechdraw]

Hi,
I hunted around and found a DM3000 (Dyna Mechtronics) lathe that had been sitting in a warehouse for some 15 years, aparently they are ex Tech schools. I would think there are more around. Just have to keep looking and hope.

They are programmed in basic (conversational programming) with 999 lines, which may not be enough but I have a friend that is very savvy with computers and he set up a program in a laptop, so now I can write in the laptop and send to the controller and back, works extremely well and saved the hassles of fitting different steppers and controller.
Cheers