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BobL
11th Feb 2019, 08:11 AM
Powtran sent me through this brochure of their 2019 range that includes an announcement of their new PI150 "Smart" VFD.
Also they have are offering a cut down "basic" PI500A model inverter
I have requested more details but nothing has come through probably because they are all still on Chinese new year holidays.
Please note I receive nothing from Powtran for doing this - I'm just a DIY fan of their products.

378064

welder
1st Mar 2019, 08:05 AM
Have you heard back about the new smart inverter. I would be interested in one for my lathe perhaps I should email powertrans.

BobL
1st Mar 2019, 09:27 AM
Have you heard back about the new smart inverter. I would be interested in one for my lathe perhaps I should email powertrans.

the PI150 will be ready for the market in April May.

You are likely to need a smart inverter for a lathe - these days even a basic VFD has way more smarts than is needed for a basic lathe setup. The smarts in the smart inverter are mostly related to CNC use.

welder
1st Mar 2019, 10:13 AM
I am more interested in the 240 volt input 380 v output feature.

BobL
1st Mar 2019, 11:17 AM
I am more interested in the 240 volt input 380 v output feature.

Is this your interpretation of what is on the brochure or do you have other information?

Kilohertz
19th Jun 2019, 02:02 AM
Hi Bob,

Thank you for your work in bringing us this info. I have been in touch with Nicole for the last few days obtaining pricing for the various models, quite reasonable. However, in looking at the website, they all seem to have the same functions, at least without comparing line for line in the somewhat poorly laid out web page format.

The ones I am considering are PI130, 150, 160, 500 and 9130. Have you been able to determine the major differences between them? I am sure they would all work just fine. My lathes are 260's, with 550W 3ph 220VAC motors.

Thanks for your help!

Cheers

BobL
19th Jun 2019, 09:08 AM
Hi Bob,
The ones I am considering are PI130, 150, 160, 500 and 9130. Have you been able to determine the major differences between them? I am sure they would all work just fine. My lathes are 260's, with 550W 3ph 220VAC motors.


I have not yet seen a manual for the 150, or the 240V 500's as I have only seen the manual for the 3P I/O 500 models.

The low power 130s and 160's model range are physically smaller so have small terminals ie fiddlier to wire up.
For the 240V input models the power is limited to 1.5 kW for the 130, and 2.2kW for the 160, unknown for the 500 and 150, I think its 5.5kW for the 9130.
The 130 has a 400Hz max frequency, and a reduced instruction set.
The 160 and 500 (3 phase only) has a 300/3200 Hz frequency depending on whether it's been driven by V/F or Vector control and a much larger instruction set.

The input and output wiring for the 160 and 130 are such that I reckon it legally needs to be installed inside some sort of an enclosure.
eg that's a 160 (L) and 130 (R) - note how mains wiring does not enter VFD with the outer insulation intact.
380172

The 500 (3P only) 9130's are physically bigger, have more robust terminals and dual line screens which makes programming easier.
The terminals and wiring are fully enclosed in both the 500 and 9130 so can be used without an enclosure.

For small motors they indeed provide more or less the same function

jack620
19th Jun 2019, 12:06 PM
I was hoping the "smart" part of the new VFDs was a better user interface. The hardest part about installing a VFD isn't the wiring, it's the tedious process of setting the parameters guided by a poorly worded manual.

Kilohertz
19th Jun 2019, 02:17 PM
Thank you Bob for the detailed reply, much appreciated.

I am considering either the 1.5KW or the 2.2KW, not too concerned about the line voltage, 220 vs 240. Ours is usually around 230 +/- 5 or so. My motors are rated 220. I'm guessing that the output voltage can be set to a chosen value? As long as the input is within spec? I'll have to peruse the manuals I found. So if line V is 230, I could set output V to 3ph 220?? I'm also a big knob person, don't like up/down key presses to change speed so that may help me decide.

I built an RPC for my big Cincinnati Hydrashift as it has a 3 ph coolant pump and contactors and things which the VFD would barf up on, but I want to use VFDs on my little 260s, just seems to be a perfect fit.

I'll go over all the info again in the next few days....busy at work now, not much time for play, and I don't want to bother Nicole with questions when I am only considering 2 VFDs. If it was a container load I might be more inclined to ask.

Thanks again!

Cheers

BobL
19th Jun 2019, 03:47 PM
I am considering either the 1.5KW or the 2.2KW, not too concerned about the line voltage, 220 vs 240. Ours is usually around 230 +/- 5 or so. My motors are rated 220. I'm guessing that the output voltage can be set to a chosen value? As long as the input is within spec? I'll have to peruse the manuals I found. So if line V is 230, I could set output V to 3ph 220??
On most of my VFDs I never bothered to adjust the parameter settings for the voltages, They seem to just output the same or close to the same V as the input.


I'm also a big knob person, don't like up/down key presses to change speed so that may help me decide.
I usually add my own remote speed knob especially where I change speeds often.
I didn't do this on my MW lathe and the pot started playing up and eventually I worked out it was dirt transferred from my hands - have since added a remote pot.


I built an RPC for my big Cincinnati Hydrashift as it has a 3 ph coolant pump and contactors and things which the VFD would barf up on, but I want to use VFDs on my little 260s, just seems to be a perfect fit.
I fitted two VFDs to my Mill (a 1HP 160 for the spindle and a 1/2HP 130 for the coolant pump) but I rarely use the coolant pump since I fitted a misting system,


I'll go over all the info again in the next few days....busy at work now, not much time for play, and I don't want to bother Nicole with questions when I am only considering 2 VFDs. If it was a container load I might be more inclined to ask.

Don't be too concerned - Nicole is more than willing to help with questions.

russ57
19th Jun 2019, 08:03 PM
The 160 control panel is *tiny*.
Definitely needs a remote panel for me to have any chance of using it comfortably.



Russ

BobL
19th Jun 2019, 08:59 PM
The 160 control panel is *tiny*.
Definitely needs a remote panel for me to have any chance of using it comfortably.


The 130 and 160 use the same panel and yes it is small - the 9130 dual display and rotary know that scrolls through the parameters is much nicer to use.

QC Inspector
20th Jun 2019, 02:38 AM
I just had a quick look at the P19000 series manual and the input voltages are 220V ± 10% so I'd imagine they are true for all their VFD's.

There is a Youtube video series I saw on another forum on converting a metal lathe to VFD. I haven't watched the series so can't vouch for all of it but it may be useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apQKgs_D0DM&list=PLDlWKv7KIIr_Znhfg8obxwcduFee5Ub5z

He is also working on an electronic lead screw and if those are of interest he is almost completed that series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTs9GygRQ-U&list=PLDlWKv7KIIr90ZZ7Zqt-ge5nVVdS3WVgg

I'll add that I'm not much of a Youtube fan but these seem okay. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Pete

russ57
20th Jun 2019, 03:23 PM
I do like his lead screw project, he's clearly learning but explains why he is doing it as he is so the viewer can judge.


Russ

Kilohertz
21st Jun 2019, 02:22 AM
http://metalworkforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by welder http://metalworkforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://metalworkforums.com/f309/t202915-vfd-announced-powtran/latest/post1947054#post1947054)
I am more interested in the 240 volt input 380 v output feature.



Is this your interpretation of what is on the brochure or do you have other information?

I just found the PI-500 catalog and it lists input as 220-240Vac +10/-15%.

Working my way thru all the models, I am down to 9130, 500 or the new 150 if I can confirm it is available for 220 volt use, currently the only documentation shows 380Vac.

FYI

Cheers

jack620
21st Jun 2019, 12:10 PM
220-240Vac +10/-15%.

A number range with a percentage tolerance. I haven't seen that before.

BobL
21st Jun 2019, 01:13 PM
A number range with a percentage tolerance. I haven't seen that before.

The 500 series brochure I have says

380215

There's clearly a typo in the second line where the first 480V should be 380V

The 500 manual says
380216

Still trying to get my head around this - at its simplest I guess it could mean anywhere from 187 to 264V???, or maybe 226 +/- 38V???
Can't imagine them using different components for different 220 and a 240V versions but who knows.

Kilohertz
21st Jun 2019, 03:21 PM
Ya, kind of funny.

Here is the reply I received from Nicole today.

"Yes , at present we only manufacture the 380v for PI150 .
All products are begin from 380v , then we design 220v , 480v , like this .
We still need one or two month to prepare for the 220v , I will let you know when it is ready for market . "

So it's down to the 9130 or 500 for me...they both look nice.

Cheers

LexD
21st Jun 2019, 05:26 PM
Ya, kind of funny.

Here is the reply I received from Nicole today.

"Yes , at present we only manufacture the 380v for PI150 .
All products are begin from 380v , then we design 220v , 480v , like this .
We still need one or two month to prepare for the 220v , I will let you know when it is ready for market . "

So it's down to the 9130 or 500 for me...they both look nice.

Cheers


Did you get a price in AU dollars, including shipping?

BaronJ
21st Jun 2019, 06:54 PM
Hi Bob, Guys,


The 500 series brochure I have says

380215

There's clearly a typo in the second line where the first 480V should be 380V

The 500 manual says
380216

Still trying to get my head around this - at its simplest I guess it could mean anywhere from 187 to 264V???, or maybe 226 +/- 38V???
Can't imagine them using different components for different 220 and a 240V versions but who knows.

I read that as AC 220 volt minus 15% and 240 volt plus 10%
A range between 187 volts and 264 volts.
Similar for the 3 phase one.

jack620
22nd Jun 2019, 10:31 AM
Taken literally those numbers are right John. But it still doesn't make sense to me. If you're going to specify a range you don't then add a tolerance. And I'd be surprised if the VFD would run on 187V.

BobL
22nd Jun 2019, 11:00 AM
Taken literally those numbers are right John. But it still doesn't make sense to me. If you're going to specify a range you don't then add a tolerance
I agree.
When I served on an international scene panel we moved some key chemical data from X+/-x, to (X+y/-z) with X being the most likely number, while some data was moved to a range ( A to B).

The "range" concept threw convention scientists into a tiz and some said "but what actual number should we use when we do a calculation" and when we said you have to use both to get the range of your output calculation that upset them even more. "Can we pick the mid point" they said, "yes you can, but that won't tell you your output tolerance" we replied. The reason a more specific number could not be provided was because of what is called "the [limited] state of knowledge". Picking the mid point of the range to use in calculations assumes that this number is more likely that others but this is not always the case. Many natural data distributions are not distributed about a specific value either because that is how things are, or sometimes because we have incomplete inputs.


. And I'd be surprised if the VFD would run on 187V.
My limited measurements of VFD inputs and outputs is that the seem to just track whatever is put into them although admittedly this has been in the 225 - 250V range. What's probably more limiting are whether the motors can handle these low/high V's.

BaronJ
22nd Jun 2019, 03:10 PM
Hi Bob, Guys,

I don't think the motor being able to handle the voltage to be an issue. Since the output is a variable frequency modulated pulse train. A bit like a radio transmitter with a nominal 50 Hz modulation. The modulation frequency, 25 to 200 Hz, being changed to control the speed, and the carrier level being adjusted according to the load variations. I suspect the "Vector" bit is essentially the simultaneous varying of both in order to cope with changing load conditions.

jack620
22nd Jun 2019, 05:54 PM
The modulation frequency, 25 to 200 Hz, being changed to control the speed...

Sure, you can spin the motor at greater than rated RPM by increasing the frequency. But don't you need full voltage to deliver full power?

BaronJ
22nd Jun 2019, 08:15 PM
Hi Chris,

Power is a function of voltage times current. From what little reading I've done, it seems that the VFD either auto measures the motor characteristics or you have to enter them manually. So realistically any voltage around nominal will do.

Internally the VFD is a rectifier plus capacitor bank providing a DC voltage that is chopped at some frequency. I did read that a carrier frequency of 10 or 20 Khz was mentioned. I would imagine at those frequencies it would allow the motor impedance to be determined and that value used to set the output parameters.

I used to have a number of technical documents by "Texas Instruments" on motor control systems and circuit design for them. I have no Idea if they are still available, they went into great detail about single and multiple phase motor control.

jack620
22nd Jun 2019, 09:04 PM
It's beyond my level of knowledge John. My VFD has a variable carrier frequency. Factory default is 6kHz. I think they make it variable so you can find a frequency that doesn't drive you crazy. I know around 4kHz makes me want to jump out a window.

BobL
22nd Jun 2019, 11:06 PM
It's beyond my level of knowledge John. My VFD has a variable carrier frequency. Factory default is 6kHz. I think they make it variable so you can find a frequency that doesn't drive you crazy. I know around 4kHz makes me want to jump out a window.

4kHz is a primary frequency for grouped consonants sounds ( "digraphs" - a group of two consonant letters standing for a single sound). Many of these involve a hissing type sound, like the "tch" in "sketch" and "ch" in "cheese" and sh in "ship". Even though the human ear is not as sensitive to these as they are to sound around 1kHz, some humans are extra sensitive to these types of noises. This is why air rushing into dust collector ports gives me the pips.

As an aside folks (like me) with hearing loss around 4kHz find it difficult to distinguish sources and words containing digraphs in a noisy group. Listening then becomes difficult/stressful and mentally tiring.

BaronJ
23rd Jun 2019, 03:46 AM
Hi Chris, Bob,

I know what you mean, 4 Khz is a little bit low, so is 6 Khz for that matter ! I repaired a golf cart drive for a friend and he complained bitterly about the whine that the motors produced under load. I couldn't make the drive frequency high enough for it to become inaudible.

Like you Bob, I have issues with hearing what is said to me in a noisy environment, my hearing aids don't help either, they just make everything louder.

Kilohertz
27th Jun 2019, 01:49 AM
Keeping everyone up to date...Nicole informed me they have discontinued the PI160 series and are only shipping what they have left in stock, and they are out of the 1R5G1Z. Waiting to hear if they have a 2R2.

FYI

electrosteam
8th Jul 2019, 12:09 PM
I am also interested in a VFD for my CNC mill - 2.2 kW 240 V to 240V 3-ph.
No fancy complications needed.

My original Huangyang (SG) has a fan that starts/stops automatically, my newer SAJ (lathe) operates the fan continuously.

What does the fan do on the Powtrans ?

John

BobL
8th Jul 2019, 01:00 PM
I am also interested in a VFD for my CNC mill - 2.2 kW 240 V to 240V 3-ph.
No fancy complications needed.

My original Huangyang (SG) has a fan that starts/stops automatically, my newer SAJ (lathe) operates the fan continuously.

What does the fan do on the Powtrans ?

John

Starts when machine motor is running otherwise it's off. Fan is also very quiet.

electrosteam
8th Jul 2019, 01:33 PM
Thanks Bob,

My lathe fan noise can be annoying at times because my workbench runs along the back of the lathe and the favourite end for bench working has me face-on to the VFD.
(Of course a proper installation inside a cabinet would virtually remove the annoyance !)

I will request a price for 2 units later today.
John

electrosteam
8th Jul 2019, 09:19 PM
Got the quote for PI130 2R2G1(Z) units.
Placed an order for 2 units with resistors, now have to negotiate a PayPal payment.

It sort of looks like they think they can charge my account, but I think that has too many steps required from my end.
How do others do an overseas PayPal payment ? (not through Ebay)

John

caskwarrior
8th Jul 2019, 09:55 PM
All you need to do is ask for the email of their PayPal account. Log in to PayPal and just send money to that address. Done

I had to pay the same way a few weeks back.

Sent from my Nokia 8 Sirocco using Tapatalk

BobL
8th Jul 2019, 10:07 PM
All you need to do is ask for the email of their PayPal account. Log in to PayPal and just send money to that address. Done

I had to pay the same way a few weeks back.

Sent from my Nokia 8 Sirocco using Tapatalk


Last I heard was Powtran no longer did PayPal, you have to use Western Union.
Maybe the have restarted using PayPal.

electrosteam
9th Jul 2019, 08:21 AM
From the quotation:

5. What is your Paypal account? so the PI could be made for you soon after confirmation
Daniel.

My sending to an email address is Ok for me.
John

electrosteam
9th Jul 2019, 06:10 PM
Responded to Powtran with my public PayPal details.

They replied with an invoice that they stated had been submitted to my PayPal account.

Got an email from PayPal stating I had an outstanding invoice, which included a link to my PayPal account.

Declined the link, opened up my PayPal account and signed in.
The Powtran invoice was there and not yet paid.
Paid the amount shown, logged out.

Got email advice from PayPal that said amount had been paid.

Advised Powtran that payment had been made.

Slick and painless - job done.
John

BobL
9th Jul 2019, 08:14 PM
Powtran stopped using Paypal when PayPal would not conduct transactions in Chinese currency and wanted everything done in US$. This required Powtran (all Chinese companies) to wear a hefty minimum transaction conversion fee which they said they would have to pass onto customers so that's when they started using other systems like Western Union.

Electrostream, in what currency did you pay Powtran and does your quote include a PayPal Fee?
Hopefully they have it sorted out.

electrosteam
9th Jul 2019, 08:57 PM
Quote was in USD.
PayPal fee USD 13.16.

John.

Kilohertz
16th Jul 2019, 02:35 PM
And I can confirm as well that they accept paypal, they just add 5% to the total to cover the fees as per Nicole a week or so ago.

Cheers

electrosteam
19th Jul 2019, 10:01 AM
DHL package delivered yesterday, very nicely packed.

First impressions are good, nice 'feel' of all the unit parts.
One surprise, the input is at the top, together with the RS485 port.
Not a problem as long as you are aware of that, it could make replacing an existing unit more difficult.
But, the Powtran is quite a bit smaller than the Huanyang.

Included was the handbook, language is very good, layout logical and everything there.
But, 110 pages sized A6 !
The small manual size has one advantage, it could be left inside the cubicle with the VFD

A lot of us, me included, would need good lighting and optical assistance.
Thank goodness the manual is available as Download so the critical pages can be printed out on A4.

Already partially installed on my mill, hope to run it over the next few days.
John

BobL
19th Jul 2019, 10:28 AM
For anyone that is interested on the woodies forum I do a bit of a side by side comparison with a couple of Powtran models and comparable power HYs.
VFD install summaries - Page 7 (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f271/vfd-install-summaries-213878/7#post2051413)

russ57
19th Jul 2019, 11:59 PM
Thank goodness the manual is available as Download so the critical pages can be printed out on A4.

John

I have extracted the list of parameters and valid settings from the download into a spreadsheet.
I can post here if anyone is interested.

My plan is to flag the ones that are 'interesting' so I can hide the others and record the values I want to set.

Of course that is not as easy as I hoped because the description of each is not always clear to me...

Russ

eskimo
22nd Jul 2019, 09:45 PM
If its not rude could you let us know the $'s for the model and size etc and freight costs?...
thinking of getting a 2.2kw motor and new VFD for the belt grinder i made...runs out of HP with the 1.5kw at around 160hz...yeah i know that is too fast but even at 120hz (about 4000fpm) i can overload it if I apply reasonable pressure against the belt.

BobL
22nd Jul 2019, 09:48 PM
If its not rude could you let us know the $'s for the model and size etc and freight costs?...
thinking of getting a 2.2kw motor and new VFD for the belt grinder i made...runs out of HP with the 1.5kw at around 160hz...yeah i know that is too fast but even at 120hz (about 4000fpm) i can overload it if I apply reasonable pressure against the belt.

It sounds like you would be better of with a 2 pole - then you wouldn't have rev it so high. My testing shows most conventional motors really start running out of puff above 120Hz.

eskimo
23rd Jul 2019, 09:55 AM
It sounds like you would be better of with a 2 pole - then you wouldn't have rev it so high. My testing shows most conventional motors really start running out of puff above 120Hz.

yeah..been thinking that also...