Advance Melbourne Lathe

[stiffman]

Hi everyone,
I recently got an old Advance lathe from my father.
It come from a men's shed, who had no need for it, as they had better / newer lathes.

As the title says, it is an Advance lathe, I'm guessing it is a pre 1962 model, as it appears to have the original manufacturer's initials stamped with the serial.

It is missing the gears (and bracket) for the leadscrew, and by the looks of it, the dog clutch system to engage the leadscrew, so I guess that is not so handy for threadcutting, and will be hard to replace.

It has a 3 jaw chuck, but not a 4 jaw one, so I'm going to need to try and find a back plate that will allow me to fit a 4 jaw to it, as I understand it takes a 1 inch BSF thread which is fairly uncommon.

Apparently it was set up in the welding bay of the men's shed, so the first order of business will be to try and clean things up as much as i can. Also, it appears to have at least one arc strike on the lathe bed. It's fairly small down towards the tailstock end, but I'll need try and smooth that out without causing more damage.

Is there any advice that can be offered regarding cleaning it up as best I can, while causing as little damage as possible to it? The first thing I did when I got it was cover it in WD40, as there was a fair bit of rust all over it (and it got wet during transportation)

I've come across a few sites (like the lathes.co.uk site) with a little info, and there are a few threads on here that mention the brand of lathes, so I know there are some of these lathes out there. I'm hoping I'll be able to find some people that can provide some helpful info on the lathe, and getting it cleaned and operational again.

Anyway, I'll post some pictures of the lathe for reference probably tomorrow, as it's late right now.

[stiffman]

So, some photos:

http://i.imgur.com/aXU6pztl.jpg (https://imgur.com/aXU6pzt)

I've pulled the slides off, and cleaned a fair bit of gunk out of them.

It appears this lathe has done a fair bit of work, as the leadscrew, and the bed seem worn at the chuck end. There seems to be a fair bit of back and forth play here:
http://i.imgur.com/IewTykQl.jpg (https://imgur.com/IewTykQ)

There is also a fair bit of bed damage from careless hacksaw parting:
http://i.imgur.com/R65VYKwl.jpg (https://imgur.com/R65VYKw)

The arc strike I've managed to reduce it's severity with some 800 grit wet & dry sandpaper, gently sanding it until I couldn't feel the raised part.
Here is a photo before I did anything to the damage(I don't have an after photo yet):
http://i.imgur.com/O0JLutNl.jpg (https://imgur.com/O0JLutN)

So I don't think this lathe is going to be a highly accurate machine, but that's ok I guess. This is my first lathe, so it will be something to get started with hopefully, and give me some experience until I can justify upgrading to something better. I'll post more when I do more with it.

[KBs PensNmore]

You might be surprised at the quality of work that can come off a worn machine.
You could give 2 blokes a lathe each, 1 person who knows what they're doing, a clapped out machine, the other who's never used a lathe, a brand new machine. Both turn an identical item, there'd be a good chance that the worn machine operator will do a first class job, while the other a mediocre job. It's just a matter of knowing the limitations and working around the machine.
Kryn

[stiffman]

Yea, and considering I haven't used a lathe since I was in highschool 20 years ago, I suspect I have a lot of work to do before I find the limit of what this machine can do.

and I thought I'd add a couple more photos.

You can see how much grime was hidden in the machine. I cleaned it up as best as I could, and covered everything in oil and it's running much smoother now.
http://i.imgur.com/L61dm0Sl.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/L61dm0S)

http://i.imgur.com/T7dceoyl.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/T7dceoy)

And while I had everything pulled apart, I noticed there appeared to be no sign of the dog clutch in it's housing, or on the leadscrew. It makes me wonder if this leadscrew is original, or if it has been re made at some point (or at least modified?)


http://i.imgur.com/OMG7Ibql.jpg
(https://imgur.com/OMG7Ibq)
And speaking of the leadscrew, the full nut is pretty worn, It slops around a lot. That might be something I'll want to try and improve. The leadscrew is also fairly worn, but I feel the full nut is absolutely annihilated. I can't make one on this lathe, but If I can work out the size of the thread, and with some practice, I have access to my dad's lathe occasionally as well (he lives 3 hours away), which could be of much more assistance with that.

For now it feels like it's running smooth, I haven't had a chance to actually run some metal in it yet, but hopefully I'll get the chance soon.

[MacPuddock]

Looks like yours is an earlier version with plain headstock bearings. The drive arrangement also looks home-brew.
My son has one of the later ones with taper roller bearings.

Not sure if you have seen this page;

Advance Metalworking Lathe (http://archives.dcemulation.org/www.titaniumstudios.com/titaniumstudios.com/tooljunkie/advance.html)

Findlay

[stiffman]

Looks like yours is an earlier version with plain headstock bearings. The drive arrangement also looks home-brew.
My son has one of the later ones with taper roller bearings.

Not sure if you have seen this page;

Advance Metalworking Lathe (http://archives.dcemulation.org/www.titaniumstudios.com/titaniumstudios.com/tooljunkie/advance.html)

Findlay

Yea, it's definitely running on plain bearings, and the drive system is a lot newer. I'm not sure if that was done at the mens shed, it might have been, as it's a pretty thorough safety system on it.
The motor itself is pretty old, but it works, so that is good enough for now.

I had come across that website, but cheers for the info.

Now it's time to play with it and learn how to use it when i get a chance.

[stiffman]

So, I guess I'll make this a little bit of a progress thread.

This morning, I finally had a chance to dig up some scrap, and have a play with the lathe.

Below you can see my first attempt at using a lathe since Highschool 20 years or so ago.
Left is my very first go, right is my secont attempt. I'm getting better already
http://i.imgur.com/T2nCJevl.jpg (https://imgur.com/T2nCJev)

After a little bit of nonsensical playing around, I figured it was worth trying to make something, so I had a go at turning some knobs for my drill press. It's missing two of the three plastic ones.
My first crack, I made the mistake of cutting it close to the needed length, and that made it a bit tricky. also I was playing around with the compound slide to get the angle correct. The second one looks much better.
I think I'll re-make the first one.

The finish isn't perfect, but it's something

I plan on simply superglueing them into place. We'll see how that works

http://i.imgur.com/HQRff1dl.jpg (https://imgur.com/HQRff1d)

There is a fair amount of backlash in both directions on the lathe, which is a bit of a pain, but hopefully I can work around it.

It's all new for me.

[Zsteve]

these early Advance lathes have the longitudinal feed driven by the handwheel at the end of the lead screw (which you have probably worked out) just need to practice on carefully feeding it along. The later production lathes had half nuts, but this one looks like it just has a full nut thats in constant engagement.

the dog clutch is used if you want power feed or if you want to cut a thread, and shouldn't be too hard to make parts to get it working. I think by memory that the Myford ML7 change gears work on these lathes, and the Lathes.uk site has some good info on them.

The lead screw on mine when I had it was in good condition, for yours possibly you might be able to remove turn it around and remount if the wear is a problem, but I'd maybe make a new nut and see how much backlash is there still. Though backlash is not really that big a deal, its just something you work with if its there and generally its not a problem.

[stiffman]

these early Advance lathes have the longitudinal feed driven by the handwheel at the end of the lead screw (which you have probably worked out) just need to practice on carefully feeding it along. The later production lathes had half nuts, but this one looks like it just has a full nut thats in constant engagement.

the dog clutch is used if you want power feed or if you want to cut a thread, and shouldn't be too hard to make parts to get it working. I think by memory that the Myford ML7 change gears work on these lathes, and the Lathes.uk site has some good info on them.

The lead screw on mine when I had it was in good condition, for yours possibly you might be able to remove turn it around and remount if the wear is a problem, but I'd maybe make a new nut and see how much backlash is there still. Though backlash is not really that big a deal, its just something you work with if its there and generally its not a problem.

Yea, I think I have a lot of practice and learning to do with the lathe. I don't think I'll do anything too drastic with it. It works for me now. Maybe when I have some more experience, I'll look into working out the powerfeed gearing out. I'm sure it could be handy, but it looks like it will require machining the mechanism from scratch, and sourcing appropriate gearing.

It's been too hot the last couple of days to play too much, but I look forward to having a proper go at turning some steel.
I just need to find a source of some metal to play with. lol

[stiffman]

I've been playing around with the lathe a bit. I'm currently working on a little wobbler engine from the steves-workshop website. It's coming along OK so far.

I'm currently trying to work out the best / easiest / most cost effective way of making backing plates for chucks.

I want to get a 4 jaw chuck for the lathe, but I'm going to need a backing plate to suite the 1 inch spindle.

Little machine shop in the USA sells blanks ready to machine and tap for the spindle, but to pull that off, I'm going to have to buy a 1" BSF tap, and somehow tap it straight, as I can't cut threads with this lathe. Plus, a tap that size is pretty pricey.

Or I could try to make one from scratch out of a chunk cast iron.

I guess the threading is something that I'm going to have to work out no matter what, as it's such an uncommon thread for a lathe.

Lastly, I've read of people welding a nut to a steel disk. This seems the easiest, but most bodged way of doing it.

Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to proceed with this?

[caskwarrior]

Does the spindle thread have a register (shoulder behind the thread, usually this provides the actual location) and a thread or just a thread? If there is no shoulder i can maybe see the welded nut or tapped hole working okay (you wont have good repeat-ability but without a shoulder you'll have no way to get that even with a good backplate) Youll just have to face the plate after mouting to get low runout. Threading isnt hard just takes some practice (use plastic first and then make a guage thread from something like aluminium.

[stiffman]

Does the spindle thread have a register (shoulder behind the thread, usually this provides the actual location) and a thread or just a thread? If there is no shoulder i can maybe see the welded nut or tapped hole working okay (you wont have good repeat-ability but without a shoulder you'll have no way to get that even with a good backplate) Youll just have to face the plate after mouting to get low runout. Threading isnt hard just takes some practice (use plastic first and then make a guage thread from something like aluminium.

Good point about the register, I think it does have one, but I'll double check that.

The threading on this lathe is a No-Go, as it is missing the leadscrew drive gearing and gear unfortunately.

[Zsteve]

what size chuck ?

I happen to have a 1" BSF tap, maybe give me a PM and maybe I can machine something for you - or at least put the thread through and you can finish it on your lathe, which would be best for fitting the chuck.

[stiffman]

what size chuck ?

I happen to have a 1" BSF tap, maybe give me a PM and maybe I can machine something for you - or at least put the thread through and you can finish it on your lathe, which would be best for fitting the chuck.

The 3 jaw that is on it now is around 85mm, but I'm thinking of going for a 100mm / 4 inch 4 jaw

Thanks for the offer, I'll keep it in mind but another forum member has been kind enough to help me out with a backing plate which will hopefully do the job.

I look forward to getting a new chuck on the lathe, as the 3 jaw on it is quite worn I think, and while I realise they aren't the most accurate at the best of times, this one seems fairly beat up and inaccurate.

I'm also thinking of taking a crack at grinding the 3 jaw to improve it, but before I do that, I need to work out a tool post grinder of some description.

[KBs PensNmore]

If you decide that the chuck is tooo far gone, I wouldn't mind buying it for a welding rotator I want to make. Don't want/need anything fancy. Is the bore about 22mm?
Kryn

[stiffman]

If you decide that the chuck is tooo far gone, I wouldn't mind buying it for a welding rotator I want to make. Don't want/need anything fancy. Is the bore about 22mm?
Kryn

I think I'm going to hold onto the 3 jaw for now. It's still got it's uses on the lathe.


As I mentioned before, a kind forum member had a backing plate that fits the lathe. I've now got the backing plate in the post, and got it fitted to the lathe!

This afternoon I fitted a 72-100 Toolmaster 4 jaw Independant chuck from H&F to the backing plate. I was eyeing off some of the chucks online, and realised that for about the same price as ordering one from china, and waiting who knows how long for it to arrive, I can order what appears to be the same chuck, for the same price, and have it in 2 days! So i'm pretty happy with that!


378235 (https://imgur.com/D5RjzIp)
Here is the chuck fitted! I do need to turn the backing plate down to the diameter of the chuck.

And here is a WIP shot of the Steve's workshop engine I'm working on:
378236 (https://imgur.com/88RNhOj)

It's rough, but it's my first project, so I'm pretty happy with it!
Hopefully when I get the m2 tap, and screws to finish it, it'll even run on compressed air.

[KBs PensNmore]

Hate to tell you this, but the pics didn't work out, it comes up with the link https://imgur.com/88RNhOjlZoinks! You've taken a wrong turn.

If you attach the pics though the Forum rather than another system, they'll always attach.
Kryn

[stiffman]

That's strange. I've uploaded them via the forum, so hopefully everyone can see them.

[KBs PensNmore]

They're now on there, did you load them by http://metalworkforums.com/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F88RNhOjl as that is what the link is you posted.
Kryn

[stiffman]

Just this weekend, I've done a little upgrade to the lathe.
I flipped the old 1/2 hp 1440rpm motor for a little brushless motor sold for sewing machines. It is 550 watts -3/4 hp, and will do 4500rpm. I've seen a few people do put these motors on various lathes with success, so I though I would give it a try.

The big thing I gain with the new motor for this lathe is the speed control. before I was limited to changing the belts between a few options that was a pain, and even never really slowed things down enough.

The speed controller allows control from 400rpm (motor speed) through to 4500rpm.
Speed is adjusted by a little arm that on a sewing machine would connect to the peddle. Some people replace the hall effect sensor within with a potentiometer, but the way I have set it up, I really like the leaver method. I can set a top speed with the controller, and then use the leaver to quickly switch between on / off or pick a speed between.

So far, I'm finding that having the controller set to 2000RPM more than adequate. I need to get a tachometer to see that translates to spindle speed, as there is a few pulley reductions in the system currently. From what I have read online, with the original motor, the lathe had a top speed of 900rpm at the spindle on the fastest belt setting. I suspect it's probably not a wise idea to run the lathe too much faster than that, given the amount of wear in the lathe as it is. I haven't opened up the spindle, but I suspect the plain bearings in this lathe probably aren't exactly in the best condition.

Also, seemings I'm posting, I'll add that I've finished the little steam engine that I mentioned in the previous post. It works really well. It could be finished a bit nicer, but I wasn't trying to make an art piece, just a first attempt at making an engine. I've started working on my second engine, which is based off the same Steves Workshop plans, but I'm going to atttempt to modify it, and turn it into a 2 cylinder engine.

[stiffman]

I'm having fun with this lathe, when the temperature isn't 40+ degrees outside anyway.
I would like to get the change gears and dog clutch operational again, to give me a power feed / allow me to try some threading etc...
The only thing is, it was all missing when I got the lathe. I'm missing the banjo bracket, all change gears and the internal mechanism of the clutch
I think by the looks of it, even the leadscrew has been replaced, as there doesn't look like there is any sign of the clutch or attachment for it on the end of it.

So that's going to be interesting, as I'll need to source / make a banjo bracket, a set of change gears, all the components of the dog clutch, and possibly a leadscrew.
Does anyone out there have a photo of the change gear setup on these early lathes?

I figure I can build a banjo bracket out of some steel or aluminium and a bit or elbow grease, but i'm not sure the dimension it needs to be. my plan is to probably make a single armed bracket, and guess the size of it, and hope it works.

Change gears are interesting, they are out there, and my understanding is they can be adapted from change gears from Myford ML7's, however nothing I've read suggests what the modification they require to fit. Plus, I don't want to invest a lot of money in the lathe, as I think it's pretty rough.
I've seen people making 3d printed gears with pretty good success, so that might also be an option.

The most complicated part is probably the dog clutch. It's going to require rebuilding the entire mechansim so it works. The principal seems straight forward, but we'll see how that works out.

Would there be anyone out there that has any info on the change gear setup, and/or the dog clutch on this lathe? If anyone has a similar lathe, some photos, and a few measurements would be of great assistance.

Lathe.co.uk says that it would have came with the following change gears: 2 x 20t, 25t, 30t, 35t, 40t, 45t, 50t, 55t, 60t, and 70t as well as an optional 20/21 tooth composite gear for metric thread cutting.
Metric thread cutting would be an ideal option, but at first, I guess the best option is to start with the fewest possible gears to get things working, and then expand from there I guess.

I do have what appears to be a couple of 30 tooth and a 20 tooth change gears from another lathe that seem to mesh, so It might be possible to modify those in some way if that's beneficial.

I'll attach a few pictures to show you what I'm working with.

Cheers Everyone

[stiffman]

I've been playing with the lathe again, working on getting the power feed going in this lathe again.
As of right now, I have a working dog clutch mechanism built and in the lathe.

384979384980384981384982

It seems to work while I engage and disengage it while turning the leadscrew. I guess we'll see how well it goes once I get power to it.

Next step is to work on the banjo bracket for the lathe sorted, and sourcing some change gears that will suite. I managed to get someone on the facebook aussie machinging group to scan their bracket from another Advance lathe, so I can make something out of steel that will be roughly the same shape as the original.

After printing out the scanned bracket at actual size, I've managed to model it in fusion 360, which is handy to get an idea of how things need to go, but I'm thinking of just using the full sized print out as a template, and transfer it to a sheet of plate steel, then get to work cutting drilling and filing everything out. I don't have any fancy tools for this, so it'll be angle grinders, drills and files to get everything to size.
384983
The round part that mounts onto the lathe I'm thinking of turning up out of steel, and welding it onto the plate steel main body. The original was a single piece cast iron bracket.

As for change wheels, I'm thinking of trying to get someone to 3d print some to start with, just to get something spinning. It seems to be a thing, and there are myford ML7 (which i understand are usable on the advance lathes) gearsets ready to print out there. Then if I happen to source or attempt to make gears later on, then that's even better. I'm mindful of not dropping too much cash on this old lathe, as I don't want to over invest in it, and then upgrade to something else later, and not be able to get at least some of my money back for it.

[franco]

Re change gears, I suggest a good starting point would be to determine the Diametral Pitch (DP) of the original gear on the outer end of your headstock spindle. A spur gear of any tooth number will mesh properly with another gear of any tooth number provided they have the same diametral pitch (and pressure angle). To determine the diametral pitch, measure the outside diameter in inches of the gear and count the teeth. The DP will be N+2 divided by the outside diameter of the gear where N is the number of teeth on the gear. This should be close to a whole number like 18 or 20. The Myford gears are 20 DP, so this will confirm whether the Myford gears will mesh with your existing gear. On a lathe of that age the pressure angle of the teeth will almost certainly be 14.5 degrees.

If you want to source stock change gears, assuming your gear turns out to be 20 DP, any stock 20 DP 14.5 degree PA gear including Myford gears with the required tooth number will mesh, but you might have to adjust the thickness and bore to suit your lathe. Most if not all of your change gears will also need a keyway in the bore;this can be cut with a file if necessary. If the Myford gears are the same bore as your lathe uses they should come with the keyway already cut.

Frank.

[stiffman]

Thanks for the info Franco, that should be a great help to work out which gears I can use. I really haven't worked out the best way to go with locating change gears for it yet, apart from keeping an eye out for some in all the usual places.

[franco]

Check the number of threads per inch on your leadscrew. if it is 8 TPI I will give you a copy of my Brackenbury and Austin lathe's threading chart if you think it will be useful. It uses the same range of gears as you quoted above. If you have two 30T gears and they are 20DP (or what ever the DP happens to be) you won't need a second 20T gear. The duplicate gear is only used when cutting the same TPI as your leadscrew: 2 x 30T gears will work just as well as 2 x 20T gears.

The Brackenbury and Austin threading chart only covers TPI threads, so I don't have a metric conversion chart using the 21T gear: I use a different system for metric threads. I do remember finding a copy of a Myford metric thread chart using the 21T gear on the internet: I don't remember if it required any other extra gears on top of the ones going up in five tooth steps to cut the full range of ISO preferred metric threads though.

Frank.

[stiffman]

I just double checked the gear on the spindle, and it's 20 teeth, and it's roughly 1.1 inches diameter. Doing the maths, that lands on a diametral pitch of 20.
That confirms that myford gears should be compatible.

The leadscrew is 8 tpi on the lathe, and I have found pictures of the Advance lathe's thread cutting chart online, that covers imperial threads, so I should be OK for that, cheers. I'll have a look for a metric chart. I did find a little program on one of the Advance lathe info websites someone had created that calculates both imperial and metric threads, so if I can't find a ready made one, I can probably make my own chart too. That will be handy.

[franco]

Here is the Myford ML7 Manual. The metric threading chart using the 21 tooth gear is on page 33. Knew I had seen one before. Wish I had found it before I went to the trouble of making a 37T/47T compound metric conversion gear and several non-standard gears for the B & A lathe!

https://wiki.nottinghack.org.uk/images/e/e8/Myford_Super7_Lathe.pdf

Frank.

[stiffman]

Cheers. That will be helpful. Most of what i make will be metric, unless of course im making something for the lathe.

Now i need to find some change gears. There was a set of myford gears on ebay this evening but i dragged my feet and someone else snapped them up :(