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View Full Version : Local-ish Caster Wanted (QLD 4020) for Sword Copying Project



Jislizard
24th Jan 2018, 09:06 AM
Hi all, I have been asked to help out on a project which I was initially going to do in polyurethane with a plaster mold.

Looks like it isn't going to work in that material.

The Project:

Cast an antique Japanese samurai sword, katana, so that the copy can be sent overseas to have all the furnishings custom made.

The sword blade is in good condition but the scabbard, handle, hand guard and other fixtures and fittings all need replacing.

Sending the original overseas is a risk that the owner does not want to take.

If I can get an accurate cast of the blade in a lighter metal then that can be sent abroad instead.

The guy is super keen on getting this done before his trip to Japan in March.

I explained that it was going to be very expensive in polyurethane and he wasn't concerned about the cost. I suggested that it would probably be more in aluminium but he actually liked the idea of having an aluminium replica more.

Questions are.

Is this doable? The problem with polyurethane is that being long and thin the cast would deform easily. Would other metals (not necessarily married to the idea of aluminium) hold up better?

I sent of a couple of inquiries to a local non ferrous foundry but I haven't heard back from them so I guess they are not interested.

Are there any hobbiests who would take a crack at this project?

Happy to do all the leg work and obviously cover expenses in material and time.

Thanks for taking the time to read and consider this request, if you can help in any way it would be much appreciated.

Mark

stix012
24th Jan 2018, 08:35 PM
Try Terry at Brisbane Foundry Ferny Hills 33516013 also could try the Trade Guild at Old Petrie Town , they have a foundry and are there Tuesdays , Fridays and Sundays from memory.

Michael G
24th Jan 2018, 09:59 PM
...I sent of a couple of inquiries to a local non ferrous foundry but I haven't heard back from them so I guess they are not interested...

Mark, while not knowing the specifics of exactly what you asked for or how, most foundries (and workshops for that matter) are wary of these sorts of one off jobs as invariably they spend time putting a quote together and then the requester who has no idea of the real cost of this sort of thing complains about the price being quoted and is never seen again.

Casting a long sword like a katana would be tricky too as you need to get the metal flowing all the way to the end through a long thin passageway (the blade). I heard of a guy who when doing special one off work would quote as if he was making two, and if he got lucky and the first one worked then the customer would get a second one 'for free'. Usually the cost for doing two is not much more than the cost of doing one. It's one of the things I do myself - unless something is dead simple I start off making two and at the end may have two or may have one.

The best approach is to front up at a foundry with item to be cast with you (or in the car in the case of a sword) rather than approaches by phone. At least they can see you are serious about the job and you are prepared to make an effort to get things going.

Michael

KBs PensNmore
24th Jan 2018, 10:03 PM
Would it be possible for someone to forge one, blacksmithing that is!!Might be cheaper than casting one, as a copy would have to be made , then cast.
Kryn

Jislizard
25th Jan 2018, 08:43 AM
Try Terry at Brisbane Foundry Ferny Hills 33516013 also could try the Trade Guild at Old Petrie Town , they have a foundry and are there Tuesdays , Fridays and Sundays from memory.

Cheers, I have emailed The Brisbane Foundry Non Ferrous Foundry | Brisbane Ind Agencies (http://www.biaqld.com.au/foundry-work/non-ferrous-foundry/) a couple of times not sure if they are the same group you suggest, the phone numbers are close but I will give them a call anyway.

I was aiming for a hobbiest over a company because in my experience companies prefer large orders with no complications and hobbiests get bored doing the same thing multiple times and are keen to try something different.

I will follow up both leads.

Much appreciated.

Jislizard
25th Jan 2018, 08:47 AM
Mark, while not knowing the specifics of exactly what you asked for or how, most foundries (and workshops for that matter) are wary of these sorts of one off jobs as invariably they spend time putting a quote together and then the requester who has no idea of the real cost of this sort of thing complains about the price being quoted and is never seen again.

Casting a long sword like a katana would be tricky too as you need to get the metal flowing all the way to the end through a long thin passageway (the blade). I heard of a guy who when doing special one off work would quote as if he was making two, and if he got lucky and the first one worked then the customer would get a second one 'for free'. Usually the cost for doing two is not much more than the cost of doing one. It's one of the things I do myself - unless something is dead simple I start off making two and at the end may have two or may have one.

The best approach is to front up at a foundry with item to be cast with you (or in the car in the case of a sword) rather than approaches by phone. At least they can see you are serious about the job and you are prepared to make an effort to get things going.

Michael

Two copies would be twice as good in this case, he is very keen.

I can understand not wanting to put the work into quoting if it is for a small job that is going to be expensive. In this case the potential cost of a lost or damaged antique blade is going to be far higher than the cost of casting a replica. I will let the foundry know how much the guy spent on the blade and they may be more comfortable knowing that he is happy to spend a bit on this hobby.

I will see if we can arrange to go on a field trip to a couple of foundries with the item in tow and see if we can talk to someone.

Cheers

clear out
25th Jan 2018, 08:50 AM
Possibly get a metalworker to make a blade out of Al or Brass whatever.
And then using the mould you have already made cast the handle in urethane onto the blade.
Or epoxy or polyester, whatever your happy working in.
A foundry may be prepared to cast an Al handle but you’d need a pattern.
The Japs are touchy re stuff like this but the Koreans would be happy to help I’m sure.
H.

Jislizard
25th Jan 2018, 08:54 AM
The blacksmithed copy would have to be a perfect match in order for it to be fitted with handles and a hard wooden scabbarb etc. The only blacksmiths I know don't work cheap either.


Although I did look towards getting it 3D scanned by a company which would then go on to 3D print it. The downside was that they would have to print it in several parts and then affix the parts together as their printers are not long enough. It would also be very flexible and easily damaged.

Another option was to send the 3D scan files overseas, have the sword printed in wax, and then use a lost wax casting technique to produce the blade.

However any variances in the scanning, printing and casting processes would multiply at each stage.

I figured that sand casting would have fewer opportunities to go awry.

Sand casting looks a lot of fun and I have been saving up scrap aluminium for a while but I don't think that this is a project for a first timer, no matter how easy it looks on youtube.

Jislizard
25th Jan 2018, 09:06 AM
Possibly get a metalworker to make a blade out of Al or Brass whatever.
And then using the mould you have already made cast the handle in urethane onto the blade.
Or epoxy or polyester, whatever your happy working in.
A foundry may be prepared to cast an Al handle but you’d need a pattern.
The Japs are touchy re stuff like this but the Koreans would be happy to help I’m sure.
H.

I have made a handle in the past for one of my own blades, it is not up to the Japanese craftsmens' quality but it works.

The scabbard makers train for 10 years before they are allowed to call themselves craftsmen, they take it really seriously.

For an antique blade they are going to want the whole thing in the proper style, correct wood (Magnolia I think?), two part construction held together with rice starch glue that can be split for cleaning, sting ray leather grip, cloth ribbon bound on top, with the matching pommel etc. Each piece is made by a different person and I wouldn't be surprised if each piece is fitted by a different person too.

They put a lot of effort into it and it is not going to be cheap so it really needs to be a close fit on an accurate copy.

I am hoping that there is not too much shrinkage in the cast metal once it has been cooled!

Thanks for the different ideas, I am very fixed on doing it one way but that's because I don't know any of the other options, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail"

kwijibo99
25th Jan 2018, 09:53 AM
G'day Mark,
I think the main flaw in your plan is that producing a dimensionally accurate metal duplicate using an original item as a pattern is virtually impossible as this will not allow for shrinkage that occurs during the casting process.
If you want a mould that will produce a near perfect duplicate your best bet is to use mould makers silicone which will capture virtually every detail of the original.
From this you can then produce a hard wax or resin duplicate that should be fairly dimensionally accurate.
If you still want a metal duplicate you could then use lost wax or investment casting but again, this may not be dimensionally accurate.
Good luck.
Cheers,
Greg.

Jislizard
25th Jan 2018, 10:15 AM
Thanks Greg, that was a concern.

Even a small % of shrinkage over a 1m long blade may cause a slight inaccuracy as they are fairly close fitting parts, the handle not so much shrinkage, maybe but the length of the blade may shorten making it a little tight at the end.

I did get in touch with a company that sells the resins and they didn't feel that they had anything that would be of any use for casting. Nothing that would hold the shape well enough over that length.

Might be worth just doing the handle in resin and tracing the blade but I have a feeling that matching the handle to the scabbard is going to be the important part.

On a side note, do you know anyone who can cast in resin?

I bought a whole box of plaster bandages because that's how I do life casting, I was just going to make a two part plaster mold of the sword. I looked into mold release agent, two part resins and silicone molding and it looks like something that can get very expensive if you don't know what you are doing and waste materials.

If anyone with experience in silicone/resin would be able to quote then it might be a bit easier, guess I will have to bug someone on another forum.

Thanks again, much appreciated
Mark

China
25th Jan 2018, 04:52 PM
I f the person wishing to have this done is going to have the Saya (scabbard), Tsuka (hilt), Tsuba (guard), Habaki (collar) etc, created in Japan, then I would not bother to make a copy, you are talking four different artisans/masters of their craft
none of them if they of a high standard will have any interest in working on a copy

Briangoldcoast
30th Jan 2018, 01:17 PM
I know this may be naive---but could they have a woodworker make a copy of the katana in a suitable wood by hand.

Jislizard
30th Jan 2018, 01:26 PM
I f the person wishing to have this done is going to have the Saya (scabbard), Tsuka (hilt), Tsuba (guard), Habaki (collar) etc, created in Japan, then I would not bother to make a copy, you are talking four different artisans/masters of their craft
none of them if they of a high standard will have any interest in working on a copy

From what I understand his plan is to send the copy of the blade over to a contact in China. Apparently there are quite a few people outside of Japan who are able to produce all the add-on bits, including Japanese makers who prefer to operate outside of Japan.

I haven't seen the chap or the quality of his work but fortunately I haven't been asked about that bit.

I know of an American who also makes the whole thing, from sword to saya to fittings, blacksmithing, copper work and woodwork. Does lovely work and I would probably go to him if I was getting it done for myself.

Cheers

Jislizard
30th Jan 2018, 01:29 PM
I know this may be naive---but could they have a woodworker make a copy of the katana in a suitable wood by hand.

It would have to be pretty accurate. Any copy is going to have to be, in order for everything to be fitted snugly.

It would probably be kinder on the blade as I am not sure how the molding process is going to affect the blade but it is high iron content so probably doesn't need to be damp during any curing process.

Cheers

China
30th Jan 2018, 02:38 PM
If the blade is as valuable as you suggest it needs to to be done in Japan buy quality artisans, using these other makers will give you a tourist quality result, if you present any of the quality makers with a copy they will be insulted
and would refuse to deal with you, fitting a valuable sword with low quality fittings makes no sense

Jislizard
30th Jan 2018, 03:44 PM
If the blade is as valuable as you suggest it needs to to be done in Japan buy quality artisans, using these other makers will give you a tourist quality result, if you present any of the quality makers with a copy they will be insulted
and would refuse to deal with you, fitting a valuable sword with low quality fittings makes no sense

It is not my blade and not my choice to make. I am not sure whether it will be used for cutting practice or just mounted for display, I imagine that it would be too risky for cutting practice as he has other blades for that.

My own sword is very new and was made in China by Japanese artisans, it was cheap(ish) and I have no fear of damaging it. The quality is decent, no where near as good as an expensive blade in Japan would be but the fittings are serviceable.

I understand where you are coming from regarding putting new Chinese fittings on a valuable old sword, it would not be my first choice either. I am only involved because I have done a bit of casting and blacksmithing in the past, I am only staying involved because I am more interested in how to make a good cast copy than I am in how the fittings are actually made in China.

It is an interesting problem and regardless of how the fitting goes, I am looking forward to the casting!

Cheers
Mark

China
30th Jan 2018, 04:46 PM
Ok fair enough, my 2 cents worth is, that lost wax casting would give a very high quality result, I doubt any casting process will give a result that does not require finishing to the final dimention

Jislizard
31st Jan 2018, 09:22 AM
Ok fair enough, my 2 cents worth is, that lost wax casting would give a very high quality result, I doubt any casting process will give a result that does not require finishing to the final dimention

Lost wax casting would be great. One of the options I looked at was to 3D scan then 3D print. As I am sure you know there are companies which will 3D print in wax so that a metal object can be made with lost wax casting. The only company I know is Shapeways in the US and not cheap but would be a decent copy.

How would you go about making the mold for lost wax casting? I was thinking a two part mold using plaster bandage but as you say, it would need a bit of finishing to remove any flashing.

Mark

China
31st Jan 2018, 04:01 PM
The finished casting will need to be a exact replica or the parts will not fit the original, I would take silicone molds form the original sword, this would require some type of container to hold the silicone, once to have this you can then
produce a wax casting, then in turn create the plaster mold using the wax casting. You would need to coat the original sword with some type of release to prevent it adhering to the silicone.
This sounds complicated and involved, however it is a well used method to create copies of valuable objects for display purposes with out damaging the original.
Problems I can see with some thing this size is locating a burnout kiln large enough.

Jislizard
1st Feb 2018, 10:20 AM
Thanks, I will look into lost wax casting and see if there is anyone able to take a look at that idea.

Mark