Question for the VFD Guru's

[Auskart]

Have a HM52 Mill with 2 x 1.5 HP Motors (one Vertical and one Horizontal) 3 Phase and a 3 Phase 0.85kw power feed I believe, what is the best way to use a VFD on this and what Power VFD.

[Stustoys]

Do you have a wiring diagram?
Does the control transformer(I assume it has one) have a 240V tap?

Stuart

[BobL]

I assume you wish to use a VFD because you don't have 3P? if so then the motors must to be compatible with and convertible to 240V 3P.
Post photos of motor name plates and connection boxes
AND
Even if you are prepared to just use the 50Hz output of a VFD (which is a bit a of a waste of a VFD) you would need to stop all motors and employ a cross over switching system to select the motors you wish to engage.
Assuming the motors are called A, B and C can you post a list of which motor combos you would like to run
eg
A
B
C
A&B (not C)
A&C (not B(
ABC

[Stustoys]

Hi Bob,
Cant imagine why someone would want hoz and vect spindles at the same time(though hey its probably happened). So maybe we can rule ABC out?
So I'd have the spindle motors on 1 VSD with a change over.
The power feed? I don't recall seeing a HM52 with a 3 phase powerfeed, but IF it is I cant see a useful way to get around having a second VSD, other than as you say sticking with 50Hz. I've been there, and it didnt last long. I thought I wouldn't need a speed pot, but fitted it anyway, "I'm not that lazy, changing gears isn't that hard".....I think I was drilling my fourth hole when I used the pot :D So it turns out I am and it is.

Stuart

[BobL]

So if
Horizontal spindle = A
Vertical Spindle = B
Power feed = C

Then the list is
A
B
C
AC
BC

Anything else?
If not, they a 5 way cross over would be needed to run it from one VFD - wiring is going to get REALLY messy.
And it doesn't take into account power differences between the 1.5 and 0.85kW motors so motor protection for the 0.85kW would be not available

Best Option is two VFDs
1) 1.5kW VFD and a simple cross over switch like I did with my twin Grinder setup
AND
2) A second 0.85kW VFD for the power drive? Haven't seen a 0.85kW VFD in my travels, a 0.75kW would probably cope.

[bollie7]

I reckon your feed motor will be 110V with a transformer in the control box. If so, and if you are lucky, the transformer might have multi volt inputs. So you might be able to run transformer from 240V.
Ive just been throught this with my mill.

peter

[bollie7]

just thinking a bit more, if the transformer is multi input then your other problem should be easy to solve as well. I'm not an electrical wizz but I cant see why you couldnt use your existing reverse switch to output to one motor when in one position (say forward) and then output to the other motor when in the other position (rev).
You will be controlling motor direction from the VFD.
peter

[Auskart]

Do you have a wiring diagram?
Does the control transformer(I assume it has one) have a 240V tap?

Stuart

This is the Wiring from the H&F Manual, 369933

[Stustoys]

Hi Shane,
Does your Vert spindle have a 2 speed motor?(that's going to make your VSD a lot more costly)
Did you check if the power feed was 3 phase?

Stuart

[Auskart]

I pick the mill up today or tomorrow, will have more info after that, can't complain about the price $800, yes it is 3 phase have seen it plugged in and running.

[Stustoys]

I guess we'll wait for the pictures.:2tsup:
If it has 3 phase power feed I'd say its pretty old(nothing wrong with that) so the wiring maybe a lot different. we'll see

Stuart

[Auskart]

I guess we'll wait for the pictures.:2tsup:
If it has 3 phase power feed I'd say its pretty old(nothing wrong with that) so the wiring maybe a lot different. we'll see

Stuart

2007 Model, picked it up today, will see if there is a wiring diagram inside the electrical cover.

[Auskart]

1st picture is inside Vertical Motor cover, so can be wire star or delta. Other pictures are of inside the electrical box and it has a Transformer, not to worried about running dual speed motor, single speed ok and will adjust speed with VFD,

369938369939369940369941369942369943369944369945369946

and the last picture is how the Vertical motor is wired at the moment.
369947369948

Info Plate on Motor
369949

[Stustoys]

1st picture is inside Vertical Motor cover, so can be wire star or delta.
Ok the good news. It only cost you $800
The bad news.
I doubt your vertical motor can be easily rewired to run on 240V(BobL has been able to get a 2 speed 415V motor to run as a 1 speed 240V motor but its a bit of work)
Other options are replace the motor,
get it rewound
get a 415V output VSD(currently about $760au for 2hp, which would seem to make either of the above a better idea)
or try it as is on 240V and see what you think($140+ on ebay for 2hp), it would depend on what sort of work you have in mind for it, you may find 1/2 power fine for small cutters. If you don't like it you haven't lost anything as you need a VSD anyway.


it has a Transformer
Sadly the transformer doesn't appear to have a 240 primary.
You'll need to replace that I'd think. I'm still guessing the 110V tap is for your power feed.(got a picture of that?)

Is the thing above the transformer a Fwd Rev switch?


Stuart

[Auskart]

Looking at the Circuit Diagram, what do the Bottom 2 lines of text mean regarding 240 volt.

[Stustoys]

Looking at the Circuit Diagram, what do the Bottom 2 lines of text mean regarding 240 volt.
For you? Nothing really*, its referring to 3 phase 220V. I'd hoped there would be a 220v primary tap for that reason, but it sure doesn't look like it.

Stuart

*other than the wiring maybe ok for the current you'll be drawing using 1/2 the V(though I wonder if anyone has built a mill with wires sizes that close??)

[jhovel]

Just one more option: You can sometimes find 240 to 415V transformers. Once you have 415V (single phase), you have the option to use a suitable 415V VFD to generate the 415V 3-phase. That would allow you to use the 2 speed motor you have as is. Sadly, the Delta - 2Y motors can't simply be wired for 240V 3-phase.
I've just gone through that exercise - successfully so far. I found a 1kW transformer, bought a used 415 2.2kW Lenze VFD and found that it is happy to run on single phase. I'll restrict it's output to the 1kW input I can give it, that way the rectifier diodes stay within their limits. The other thing that I hadn't expected is that the Lenze VFD is explicitly suitable for motor-side switching! That means I could switch the motor speed while the VFD is running!
Interesting new option....

[Stustoys]

Hi Joe,

I like!
That would sort out his transformer issue at the same time.
Going to have to keep my eyes out for one.

Hi Shane,

You've got a 3 phase coolant pump at a guess. Not much of an issue though.

Stuart

[Oldneweng]

Sadly, the Delta - 2Y motors can't simply be wired for 240V 3-phase.

My Delta - YY lathe motor is wired to 240v 3 phase with both speeds working.

Dean

[jhovel]

Hi Dean. You'd better tell us how! pretty please :U
Was it a 240V 3-phase motor made for the US? or did it start off as a 415V 3-phase motor made for Australia/Europe and rewired to 240V (without being rewound)?
BTW, I do know of a theoretical way of rewiring the latter, figured out by RayG, but there are so many embedded coil ends involved, I've never managed to do it without stuffing up the insulation....

[Auskart]

So if I run a VFD on a 415v 3 phase I will get half the speed and half the torque is that correct.

Also what happens if you use a larger VFD say a 2.2kw instead if a 1.5kw.

What if I just run the high speed winding on the VFD and not the low speed. Just exploring all options as there are many differing opinions on Google.


Need someone to explain the difference to me, at the moment I have a HM-45 running fine on a VFD, the plate of the motor and the vfd I am using are below, this has been running happily for 3 years.
it is a 1.5kw vfd running a 1.5hp (1.1kw) motor and the motor appears to be 415v

369962369963

Let's forget about the Power Feed, I have a 240v to 110v transformer that will take care of that.

[Stustoys]

So if I run a VFD on a 415v 3 phase I will get half the speed and half the torque is that correct.

If you run a 240V VSD on your mill as currently wired(i.e. for 415V) you will get about half the torque(i.e half the power) all the speeds will be about the same. Its unlikely you will have the same range of speed adjustment with the VSD before power gets to low to be much use.
If you run a 415V VSD on your mill as currently wired(as Joe said above) you will have full power and a larger speed range.


Also what happens if you use a larger VFD say a 2.2kw instead if a 1.5kw.
A larger VSD won't help. (infact I think if you were sure you were going to run it on 240V but wired for 415V you could in theory use a smaller VSD)


What if I just run the high speed winding on the VFD and not the low speed. Just exploring all options as there are many differing opinions on Google.
I dont see how this makes any difference, other than "not having switching after the VSD" which some people worry about. Its not an issue as long as they VSD output is off when switching speeds, and in some cases it doesnt even have to be off.


Need someone to explain the difference to me, at the moment I have a HM-45 running fine on a VFD, the plate of the motor and the vfd I am using are below, this has been running happily for 3 years.
it is a 1.5kw vfd running a 1.5hp (1.1kw) motor and the motor appears to be 415v
Many single speed 3hp and below 3 phase 415V motors can be easily rewired to run on 240V.(
Most other single speed 3hp and below 3 phase motors can, with a little work, be rewired to run on 240V.
They are Star wired, thats the Y on the bottom left of your HM-45 motor plate. They are rewired to Delta Δ to run on 240V.
2 Speed motors are different, they aren't nearly as easy, if at all. Now it maybe possible(re Dean above) but it would be at least 3 times as much rewiring. I'd have a chat to a motor rewinder and see if they are interested in trying and how much they would want, prices are all over the place.

Hope I've made things better and not worse.:rolleyes:

Stuart

[BobL]

Need someone to explain the difference to me, at the moment I have a HM-45 running fine on a VFD, the plate of the motor and the vfd I am using are below, this has been running happily for 3 years. It is a 1.5kw vfd running a 1.5hp (1.1kw) motor and the motor appears to be 415v .
You need to remember that while running, a motor does not constantly produce it's rated power, the power output depends to a great extent and up to a point on the load and not many machine users operate their machines at full load capability.

In other words this just means that the the HM-45 has not been loaded up near the 1.5HP output ability of the motor.
If most of what you are doing only needs half the 1.5HP then you would never know there was a problem.
On the odd occasion when the load was such that the motor needed to deliver a bit more than 0.75HP it was able to do this provided you did not do this for too long.
If the over loading is done in short bursts depending on the motor you can probably do this for a few years and get away with it.
OTOH if the load is constant, such as on a pump, the motor will degrade and die sooner or later.

I ran my WoodW lathe like that for a few years as all I was doing was small spindle work which doesn't need much power/torque.

While we are talking VFD's I have been dealing with Powtran in China to purchase a decent quality 3P-3P VFD.
I started out trying to go through their Alibaba portal but that was hopeless so I approached them direct and their response has been EXCELLENT.

Powtran's latest entry level Vector Drive VFDs (PI9130A series) are full vector drive with the braking circuitry built in, dual speed potentiometer, dual displays and a host of other features - most of which we will never use.

The standard large red LED display shows any value that a machine operator would need to see, while the smaller 4 line OLED (multi-lingual) display screen shows other parameters and is useful for programming. These are much more ruggedised units than the comparable Huanyang VFD models and given the quality the prices are very reasonable.

Their 220-380V prices are
Their 1.5HP model (1R5G1) is US$115
The 3HP (2R2G1) is US$129
5HP (004G1) is US$160
Delivery via DHL is US$40

I ordered a 1.5HP 3P-3P VFD (1R5G3)and it was the same price as the 1R5G1.
So for a total of AUS$200 I get a full vector drive VFD with a host of useful features.

The contact email is [email protected]
The Persons name is Nicole Chan.

Back in May in the woodwork forums I did a side-by-side comparison of an older model Powtran (PI9100 series) with the HY and you can see some of the differences.
The old model had dual LED displays whereas the new one has an LED and an OLED screen
VFD install summaries (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f271/vfd-install-summaries-213878#post2023935)

[Stustoys]

If most of what you are doing only needs half the 1.5HP then you would never know there was a problem.
On the odd occasion when the load was such that the motor needed to deliver a bit more than 0.75HP it was able to do this provided you did not do this for too long.

Damn I didn't think of that, I just assumed it had been wired in delta.

[Oldneweng]

Hi Dean. You'd better tell us how! pretty please :U
Was it a 240V 3-phase motor made for the US? or did it start off as a 415V 3-phase motor made for Australia/Europe and rewired to 240V (without being rewound)?
BTW, I do know of a theoretical way of rewiring the latter, figured out by RayG, but there are so many embedded coil ends involved, I've never managed to do it without stuffing up the insulation....

How? Pretty please? I have no idea. I just hooked it up against the recommendations from the forum and it worked.

It is a Chinese built motor/lathe (CY) sold in Australia. The motor (original) is as I have said, Delta - YY. It is rated for 415v. It had a 2 speed switch. I started by just connecting to the VFD in Delta. All worked perfectly. Quite some time later I connected the VFD to star just to see what happened and it worked fine at full speed. Now I have contactors set up and have put the 2 speed switch back in to switch them. I don't have protection from changing speeds while it is running. I rarely use high speed, but it is there when I need it.

I think it is a good idea to just try a motor before doing anything expensive and irreversible. Sorry I cannot help anymore than this. When I first started asking on the forum about connecting this motor to a VFD I was told it would not work. Knowledge has improved since then. It is a very complex subject tho.

Dean

[Oldneweng]

Bob,

Are you referring to 220v 3P - 380v 3P VFD's with all of those listed?

Dean

[Stustoys]

When I first started asking on the forum about connecting this motor to a VFD I was told it would not work. Knowledge has improved since then.
As I recall the original idea was for you to run your 415V motor on 240V to limit the power output, there by limiting the input current required as at the time you couldn't supply the current needed to run at full power.
Yes some people get bent out of shape about switching after the VSD, they still do I believe. As for interlocking, how many people have protection from changing gears while running?(yes some laths do but many/most don't)

But unless you've done a lot of work to the motor, you wont be getting full power, just full speed(subject to what Bobl said above about getting more power for short periods) which given the power of your lathe isnt likely to be an issue all that often. But then. you never claimed full power.

My Delta - YY lathe motor is wired to 240v 3 phase with both speeds working.
Which I think is what Joe was thinking.

Stuart

[Oldneweng]

As I recall the original idea was for you to run your 415V motor on 240V to limit the power output,

And here I was thinking it was because 240v was all I had. :rolleyes:


But unless you've done a lot of work to the motor, you wont be getting full power, just full speed

It is a bit worse than it seems because the motor is 7.5Hp, but the VFD is only 5Hp so the maximum current is less than half required to acheive full motor power. I have not yet had an issue with lack of power tho and I have taken some pretty big cuts. The amp meter has not gone above about 8A in actual use. The only time I have reached a limit is with trying to crank the motor up just to see how it would go. The VFD maxed at about 12A, a bit shy of the 23A it should have done.

Initially I only had a 10A circuit to run the lathe from. I have now installed a 32A circuit, but I only have a 15A GPO as I don't believe I will need any more than that.

Dean

[BobL]

Bob,

Are you referring to 220v 3P - 380v 3P VFD's with all of those listed?

Dean

Except for the 1R5G3, they are all 220V Single phase input to 220V 3P output.

*R*G1 models are 220V Single phase input, to 220V 3P output.
*R*G3 models are 380V 3 phase input to 220V 3P output.

[Auskart]

Is there a problem if you use a larger rated VFD than needed, say 2.2kw or even larger when you only need 1.5.

On my HM-45 it has a 1.1kw motor and I am running a 1.5kw vfd and never had an issue.

[Stustoys]

Is there a problem if you use a larger rated VFD than needed, say 2.2kw or even larger when you only need 1.5.

On my HM-45 it has a 1.1kw motor and I am running a 1.5kw vfd and never had an issue.
Other than costing a little more. None.


And here I was thinking it was because 240v was all I had. :rolleyes:
Yes at 10 amp ;)
The VSD being only 5hp doesn't matter, you're never going to get that much as currently wired.
12A is about spot on 1/2 your 7.5hp? 23A would only happen at 7.5hp which was never going as it is.


Stuart

[BobL]

Is there a problem if you use a larger rated VFD than needed, say 2.2kw or even larger when you only need 1.5.

Only that it's a good idea to make sure the max current the VFD can supply has been changed from the default max current for a 2.2kW motor otherwise there is nothing protecting the 1.5kW motor.


On my HM-45 it has a 1.1kw motor and I am running a 1.5kw vfd and never had an issue.
Most 1.1kW motors should be able to handle the max current provided by a 1.5kW VFD.

[Auskart]

Will let everyone know how it turns out, thanks for all the advice.

[simonl]

Hi Aus,

I think that machine must have come with several voltage options. One of those options was to run on 240V. I think the text refers to circuit if the machine was configured to 240V. In which case the transformers would have a 240V primary.

I think you will need to make some changes to the transformers etc. But for $800 I would not be complaining. You got yourself a good buy but it will need some mods for your particular use.

Cheers,

Simon

[Auskart]

$800 HM-52G wired with VFD, no wiring changes to the Motors just removed most of the wiring from the power box and added the VFD, added a separate transformer for the power feed and need to change the coolant pump. Left all the switching in place for the motors and everything works fine.

370228 370229

Ordered 3 Axix DRO from Aliexpress for $320 Aus.

[Stustoys]

Nice!

Is the Hoz spindle wired as well? You're just using a 3 pole switch to select motor?
Did you look in the Hoz spindle motor terminal box? as it's(I assume) a single speed motor you maybe able to change that to run at full power easily(if you ever feel the need).
If you aren't using the buttons on the VSD for controls I'd move/cover it or chances are one day you'll get some swarf in there and let the magic smoke out.

[Auskart]

Nice!

Is the Hoz spindle wired as well? You're just using a 3 pole switch to select motor?
Did you look in the Hoz spindle motor terminal box? as it's(I assume) a single speed motor you maybe able to change that to run at full power easily(if you ever feel the need).
If you aren't using the buttons on the VSD for controls I'd move/cover it or chances are one day you'll get some swarf in there and let the magic smoke out.

Yep Horizontal is wired as well, use VFD buttons for forward and reverse, left original switching as VFD wired into main feed for both motor, use original switches to switch between Hoz and Vert. Couldn't mount VFD on Vert head as I would have liked because when used in Hoz mode head is around the back :)

[BobL]

I agree with Stu - it needs a cover and Not sure I'd like to have to reach over the work area to get at the VFD control.

When you cover it you might want to look at mounting wired remote controls in a small control box that you can mount onto the head and move around like this.
This box is on my WW bandsaw and has a magnet attached to the back so it can be located to where it is best accessible
370230

[Oldneweng]

The VFD control is a seperate little box that pops out you know? You could then get a longer cable for it and mount it anywhere. You could even mount it with magnets so it can be moved as required. The flat cable connector does stick out the back a bit and should be protected/sealed. These cables can be bought at any electronics store or made up from the parts.

My VFD (lathe) is in a plastic electrical box. The control unit sits on the door of the box and has enough cable so the door can be opened easily to access the inside of the box. I don't use the controls so it is just there as a display. The controls are standard switches on the lathe switch panel plus a multi-turn pot for speed. The advantage of this is it is quite accurate and has a counter which enables you to dial in any speed you want. I just use the frequency readout to set speed.

Dean

[jack620]

I mounted my pedestal drill's VFD in a case with a clear lid so I can read the frequency and then cross-refer to a table to get RPM as Dean suggested.

[BobL]

Chris, What about cooling?

[jack620]

It doesn’t seem to be a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oldneweng]

Chris, What about cooling?

My housing is a little bigger than Chris' and has a digital thermometer with the sensor sitting close to the VFD. It never rises much above ambient. I thought I would do this to start with and deal with the cooling later as deemed necessary. No need. It might be different if a lot of heavy machining was happening.

Dean