PDA

View Full Version : Need advice on 12 volt dual / dual battery charging .



Retromilling
19th Aug 2017, 11:43 AM
I have wired up a dual battery to run a small portable fridge on a 150 amp (125 amp cont.) isolator it's running good but I also have an extra battery bank to run a winch from some old agm batteries that I have had for some years for camping . My problem is how do I get charge current across to my extra winch batteries without draining down my main battery and possibly my fridge battery once they are connected if they are in a discharged state ? I don't want to overload my alternator charging everything at once or connect the two agm batteries in parallel with the fridge battery as that might overload the isolator also. This is what I have now . Any advice would be appreciated . I don't mind a cheap solution where I have to monitor the batteries and flip a switch or two . Rub out parts of the image and put in you advice then repost the image .
369387

KBs PensNmore
19th Aug 2017, 05:36 PM
The way that I read this, is that you want to run 4 batteries, your main battery, a fridge battery and 2 winch batteries, (we'll call these 3 the auxiliary batteries),
is this correct?
Your system shouldn't be overloaded unless the 3 auxiliary batteries are dead flat. If you were wanting to run the winch, you should have the engine running, to be able to keep those batteries charged any way. If you plan on being base camped for a week or two at a time, I'd look at getting a solar panel to help keep things topped up, unless you're prepared to have the vehicle running for a couple of hours per day to top up the battery. I'd also fit a battery indicator to them, just to keep an eye on the charge/discharge rate.
I've installed quite a few dual battery setups, and the most was 3 batteries all up, and there weren't any problems.

Retromilling
19th Aug 2017, 07:25 PM
The way that I read this, is that you want to run 4 batteries, your main battery, a fridge battery and 2 winch batteries, (we'll call these 3 the auxiliary batteries),
is this correct?
Your system shouldn't be overloaded unless the 3 auxiliary batteries are dead flat. If you were wanting to run the winch, you should have the engine running, to be able to keep those batteries charged any way. If you plan on being base camped for a week or two at a time, I'd look at getting a solar panel to help keep things topped up, unless you're prepared to have the vehicle running for a couple of hours per day to top up the battery. I'd also fit a battery indicator to them, just to keep an eye on the charge/discharge rate.
I've installed quite a few dual battery setups, and the most was 3 batteries all up, and there weren't any problems.

Thanks for the reply . The two winch batteries are in parallel so it is one battery really . I was unsure of the best way to charge the winch battery without over loading anything . I do intend to fit battery monitors to all three batteries when I get the money . I was thinking solar trickle charger for when the vehicle is sitting about in the daytime but not sure it's good value for money . The two AGM batteries are very different to the calcium fridge battery so I am not sure it's a good idea to just parallel them . Their could be a situation where the two AGM winch batteries are discharged maybe even to 50 % so I am worried that just paralleling them could burn out the present isolator or over tax the alternator . I am after some kind of switched connection between the two circuits that I can bring in after a few hours of driving and I see that the main and fridge battery are fully charged .
I just don't know how to wire that part , use another isolator , large relay or what ? I am not sure two isolators sensing the same main battery would work ? Solar is an option to take any load of the other system but then it takes up too much space on the roof rack . I would ask an auto electrician but the ones near me are very unhelpful so I avoid using them at all because they always want to install something that costs $500 or more plus their labour .

KBs PensNmore
19th Aug 2017, 08:26 PM
You could use a marine switch similar to this, in between your fridge and winch batteries. Just switch it on as required, simple and cheap.
Heavier ones are also available.

200A 12V 24V DISCONNECT BATTERY ISOLATOR KILL SWITCH KEY CAR MARINE BOAT CARAVAN AU $18.99 Free postage
369398

Kryn

Retromilling
19th Aug 2017, 08:53 PM
You could use a marine switch similar to this, in between your fridge and winch batteries. Just switch it on as required, simple and cheap.
Heavier ones are also available.

200A 12V 24V DISCONNECT BATTERY ISOLATOR KILL SWITCH KEY CAR MARINE BOAT CARAVAN AU $18.99 Free postage
369398

Kryn

I am trying to avoid drawing the charge current through the present isolator which would happen if I did that and also if the winch batteries were discharged to say 50% then they would suck all the power out of the fridge battery which could damage it . If I am going to use a switch then it has to be at the front end direct from the alternator with a blocking diode in the line . I already have a switch like that at the front end to isolate the positive terminal I connect the winch cable to , I could use that with a blocking diode . That way the alternator voltage is also in the circuit during winching .
That gives me another idea . I could use a heavy duty relay and blocking diode and put a switch on the dash to operate it. That way I can switch it on and off as I view the battery monitors that would be far more convenient than stopping and popping the hood which I could forget more easily .
If I can find a switch with a flashing LED in it would be good and hard to forget . I think that could work for better control of how much the alternator works . I could stop now and then and put my hand on the alternator to get an idea of how hot it normal runs . Once everything is charged it's not a big deal it's just that 310 AH of AGM battery can suck a lot of power if they are flat . What do you think ?

BaronJ
20th Aug 2017, 01:53 AM
Hi,
My two pennyworth...
I have an arrangement with three wet lead acid batteries, one of which is the vehicle battery, 76 amp hour and two 110 amp hour leisure batteries, all in parallel . I do have a 25 amp isolator switch between the leisure and vehicle batteries which is only opened when the vehicle is serviced. A 300 watt solar panel into a charge regulator set for 14 volts is used to charge all three batteries. This system feeds all the services, fridge, TV, heating, lights etc, 24/7. Even on wet dull days, I have yet to see the battery voltages fall below 13 volts, and that is with a full load, when it has not been fit to go out of the vehicle and the heating is on. The solar panel and charge regulator can put 16 amps out if needed, although the panel can supply more than that, the charge regulator can't. It is supposed to be able to output 20 amp @ 12 volts. Since your winch is only a temporary load, I don't think that you need to worry about it too much. It's possible your fridge battery could be obsoleted without any loss.

Retromilling
20th Aug 2017, 11:49 AM
Hi,
My two pennyworth...
I have an arrangement with three wet lead acid batteries, one of which is the vehicle battery, 76 amp hour and two 110 amp hour leisure batteries, all in parallel . I do have a 25 amp isolator switch between the leisure and vehicle batteries which is only opened when the vehicle is serviced. A 300 watt solar panel into a charge regulator set for 14 volts is used to charge all three batteries. This system feeds all the services, fridge, TV, heating, lights etc, 24/7. Even on wet dull days, I have yet to see the battery voltages fall below 13 volts, and that is with a full load, when it has not been fit to go out of the vehicle and the heating is on. The solar panel and charge regulator can put 16 amps out if needed, although the panel can supply more than that, the charge regulator can't. It is supposed to be able to output 20 amp @ 12 volts. Since your winch is only a temporary load, I don't think that you need to worry about it too much. It's possible your fridge battery could be obsoleted without any loss.

That is not a bad idea to just dump the fridge battery and connect the two AGM's in it's place . I am sure the alternator could cope and the isolator also with normal charging . However what worries me is if I run the winch it can draw from 200 to 400 amps ! 400 amp being a very heavy load and my vehicle is not that heavy anyway so typical would be 200 amp . I am not sure what the isolator would do when it sensed a sudden 200 amp discharge on the auxiliary battery . It should isolate but how quick I does I don't know . If it's slow to isolate it may suffer excessive charging current draw .
A 300 watt solar panel on the two AGM's would fix the problem but it's too expensive and too large . 150 watt is about as large and expensive as I can go . Does your solar charge controller block reverse current at night time ?

.RC.
20th Aug 2017, 12:19 PM
Sometimes the easiest solution is another alternator installed on the vehicle. This used to be easy in the vehicles made before power steering and air conditioning. Modern cars with so little spare room, might be next to impossible.

Oldneweng
20th Aug 2017, 12:42 PM
I know next to nothing about solar, but I am keen to learn. I was interested about reverse current at night so I did a quick search. The one site I read said that reverse current protection should be built into the solar panel. They said to ask if a solar panel has “Reverse flow protected circuitry”. I have a 60w panel that I bought to keep a battery charged on an electric fence energiser. I really should do something with it.

Dean

Retromilling
20th Aug 2017, 04:26 PM
Right I have not even looked into solar at the moment other than a few prices . I bet the ones I can afford don't have it built in but I will keep that in mind Dean . I did ask my local auto electrician about an extra alternator and it is possible on the x-trail but over a grand well the exact words were at least a grand . I can see that I would take quite a bit of time to do it . I don't want to do anything to this vehicle I can't remove easily and install on another vehicle . I could just keep the batteries fully charged as I have in the past and just take them away like that . Even after a month the AGM's would still have 90% capacity give or take age . Plenty of amp hour to get me out of trouble and it's very unlikely that I would be away more than a few days at a time as my current health at the moment is not up to long trips anyway . I just want to be able to extract us from a bog or winch off an impassible road due to rain onto the side vegetation . With road trains the way they are now getting stuck in the middle of a muddy dirt road is highly dangerous nothing stops them they just keep driving rain hail or snow and at high speeds . I once saw a bogged vehicle get slammed by a cattle truck because it was so covered in mud from the passing trucks he could not see it well . I always avoid dirt roads in rain but you can get caught sometimes . The longer your vehicle stays in the middle of the track the more dangerous it becomes and if you stay in your vehicle which you may have to due to rain it's even worse . You can put out all the triangles you like they rarely see them and just drive over them . Even a good strainer post as long as Dean never put it in :o would get my light vehicle off the road in an emergency .

BaronJ
20th Aug 2017, 05:28 PM
Hi Guys,

I'll try and cover the various points made.

Solar Panels: Since the solar cell is functionally a diode, I think that having a separate diode for reverse protection would only be needed if the back fed voltage was much higher than the panel could provide, i.e. Grid tie systems. My solar panel is a standard domestic rooftop one. It is rated at a nominal 300 watts and provides about 55 - 56 volts output. The charge controller prevents any voltage/current feed back into the panel anyway. Even on a dull wet day the panel still provides around 35 volts at several amps.

Here in the UK these panels are available for less than £100. Mine cost me £98.00 inc VAT. I had to collect mine because they wouldn't ship less than a case of ten panels. I also bought a pair of connectors so that the panel could be disconnected and removed if required.

Isolator Switch: Having one to separate the vehicle and domestic systems is a wise precaution for all sorts of reasons. As I mentioned, in my case it is normally only used when the vehicle is serviced. A safety issue ! A heavy duty alternator is a simple swap on mine but fitting a second one is not possible, and with the solar panel not needed. However when I was having vehicle battery problems I did isolate the two systems and when the vehicle battery was discharged enough to not be able to start the engine the 25 amp switch happily allowed the leisure batteries to charge the vehicle battery.

I appreciate that the conditions under which you operate your RV and those that I encounter are quite different, but I hope that my experiences help you.

I will try and get some pictures later and post them here.

Retromilling
20th Aug 2017, 06:36 PM
2 x 150 watt panels would cost about $600 au 370 pounds and I would have to also buy a controller and fitting gear it would cost close to 670 pounds .
We do live in one of the safest places in the World but we pay through the neck for the privilege . I do appreciate your input and you are obviously more experienced than me in this area . I just have all kinds of limits , space limits , money limits . Most of the stuff I am using came off another older vehicle I sold some years back and a few vehicles before that it's a kinda recycling effort . I did have to buy some stuff , cable conduit was not used much back then so I had to buy rolls of that . If I put a big solar panel on my roof it will leave no room on the roof rack for other stuff , every move I make is compromised by something . The basic dual battery system went in easy because I had that before , it's these winch batteries that have me stumped .

Oldneweng
20th Aug 2017, 08:53 PM
Even a good strainer post as long as Dean never put it in :o would get my light vehicle off the road in an emergency .

What are you trying to say? :C I resemble that remark. :~

You can do it with a couple of star droppers if you know how. I got bogged with a Falcon wagon and trailer and used the mast from the jack (remember those old Ford jacks?) and I think a star dropper I found nearby to set up a winch point. I had a cable come along to winch with. I was getting firewood so I had the splitter to drive the bits in the ground.

Dean

BaronJ
20th Aug 2017, 09:43 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm back with a few pictures of my vehicle. Whilst I have it in mind, a power winch is very convenient, a "Trifor" manual cable puller could be used in a pinch, slow I would agree, I've seen a 38 tonner pulled back upright with one ! A single bloke yanking on the lever, mind you, me and two others were stood watching,

369473 369474

This is my solar panel mounted on the vehicle roof, it is a nine by six cell 300 Watt one. You can better see the connection box in the second picture. Looking down the sides there are two alloy clamps on each side that are bolted into expanding nuts. The whole of the roof rack is made from 50 X 12 x 4 mm aluminium channel. All eight mounting posts were made, six to fit the mounting points on the vehicle and two rubber mounts, designed to support the front edge of the panel. There is a wind deflector to go on as well, but I haven’t gotten around to finishing it off. The edges of the panel are black anodised, but I covered all the edges with with white PVC tape to help it blend in somewhat.

369477 369478 369479

This is the battery storage compartment with the fuse box, main terminal box and solar panel controller unit. That is in the small plastic box below the fuse box. You can see the 4mm wire connections going in on the left hand side.
That junction box holding the main terminals is a 100 amp domestic one and was picked up as surplus from a local electrical dealer. That third picture shows the lift off lid closing off the compartment.

369475 369476

These last two pictures are of the control panel, housing the water gauge, LPG gas gauge, step control switch and the 25 amp isolator switch. It is shown here in the off position. Again the isolator came from a local electrical dealer.

This is very much a work in progress, I have a lot to do to get to a finished state. However it is a very usable RV as it stands.

Retromilling
21st Aug 2017, 11:21 AM
What are you trying to say? :C I resemble that remark. :~

You can do it with a couple of star droppers if you know how. I got bogged with a Falcon wagon and trailer and used the mast from the jack (remember those old Ford jacks?) and I think a star dropper I found nearby to set up a winch point. I had a cable come along to winch with. I was getting firewood so I had the splitter to drive the bits in the ground.

Dean

Just joking mate , I have built a custom stake recovery point , it's a long flat plate with holes in it at an angle and you drive bars down into it .
I have used it once to get someone else out of trouble but never me yet. It was going quite rusty in the shed and annoying me so 2 years back I ground it all down and painted it and my sand anchor . I have seen other people use three star pickets driven in and tied together to winch out . Works ok in solid ground . I think I remember those big Ford jacks they were long like a high lift jack . Think I had one in a Falcon I owned way back .

Retromilling
21st Aug 2017, 12:10 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm back with a few pictures of my vehicle. Whilst I have it in mind, a power winch is very convenient, a "Trifor" manual cable puller could be used in a pinch, slow I would agree, I've seen a 38 tonner pulled back upright with one ! A single bloke yanking on the lever, mind you, me and two others were stood watching,

369473 369474

This is my solar panel mounted on the vehicle roof, it is a nine by six cell 300 Watt one. You can better see the connection box in the second picture. Looking down the sides there are two alloy clamps on each side that are bolted into expanding nuts. The whole of the roof rack is made from 50 X 12 x 4 mm aluminium channel. All eight mounting posts were made, six to fit the mounting points on the vehicle and two rubber mounts, designed to support the front edge of the panel. There is a wind deflector to go on as well, but I haven’t gotten around to finishing it off. The edges of the panel are black anodised, but I covered all the edges with with white PVC tape to help it blend in somewhat.

369477 369478 369479

This is the battery storage compartment with the fuse box, main terminal box and solar panel controller unit. That is in the small plastic box below the fuse box. You can see the 4mm wire connections going in on the left hand side.
That junction box holding the main terminals is a 100 amp domestic one and was picked up as surplus from a local electrical dealer. That third picture shows the lift off lid closing off the compartment.

369475 369476

These last two pictures are of the control panel, housing the water gauge, LPG gas gauge, step control switch and the 25 amp isolator switch. It is shown here in the off position. Again the isolator came from a local electrical dealer.

This is very much a work in progress, I have a lot to do to get to a finished state. However it is a very usable RV as it stands.

Thanks for the reply your system looks good . The Tirfor winch is a good thing and not needing any electric power . Unfortunately I am too old and my back is not good enough anymore to use one . I have done a lot of hard work , Military training and operations not to mention the Vietnam war in my time and the body has suffered quite a bit from carrying heavy pack loads over long distances it wrecks your sciatic nerves in your lower back . It can be quite hard on your back if you have to move the vehicle a long way . I owned one for many years but gave it away to a younger guy .
That's a huge solar panel and would take up my whole roof area . I don't have the load space inside the vehicle to sacrifice the whole roof rack area . I need the roof rack area for at least one spare wheel , two fuel cans , long handled shovel and high lift jack . If I go higher and put a panel above all that the car will not fit under the rolladoor to the shed . My roof rack is at stage one at the moment ( just four bars ) but the whole concept is low profile so I can eventually leave my stuff on the roof rack sometimes but still be able to get into my shed and into underground public parking which is even common in bigger country towns . We don't have park and ride yet thank god .
The image is of my vehicle with stage one of the low profile roof rack you can see my load limitation in a small vehicle like this and I don't want to pull a trailer because that will get you bogged every time and ruin fuel economy .
You camper looks very roomy and much easier to fit stuff into , the Nissan X-Trail is hard to fit anything extra to it .
If I go a solar panel it will have to be a removable set up and take it off when parked in towns . Too easy to steal on a low vehicle like mine. The other stuff on my rack will be locked down so less chance of theft . PS. I just got a bit of an idea . I could put a folding solar panel across the bonnet , make it clip to the edges of the bonnet with some cushioning under it . Running the cable down into the engine bay and attaching to the front winch terminal would be easier than running the cable inside at the back or side of the car no water leak issues . Would a solar panel stand the shock and closing vibrations of a bonnet I would close it gentle ?

Oldneweng
21st Aug 2017, 12:57 PM
Works ok in solid ground

The situation I was in was sandy ground. When I say sandy I mean sandy. Not far from where I lived at the time. The sand was good enough to use for concrete if you could find some clean enough. Star droppers are actually very well designed to resist sideways force in sandy soil.

What do you mean by tied together?

Tied from top of attachment dropper down to bottom of next, top of that one down to bottom of next etc etc, each seperated by a distance. The droppers are angled back away from the object to be winched. Best possible attachment method you can produce as I see it. Uses the same principal as a strainer on a fence. It puts all the force on the ground friction of the attachment post and virtually negates all bending forces above ground. Logically it would beat a "it's a long flat plate with holes in it at an angle and you drive bars down into it ", because the force is all directed at / from the ground level. Your flat plate will have force acting on it at an upward angle unless the winch cable runs along the ground. With my idea the angle of the cable is also at an angle, but because the dropper is tilted backwards the cable force still pulls directly thru the ground. The best thing is that it can be made up of stuff found around the area, if you are lucky. One of the things I carry is a crowbar and this can be put into use. You can dig a hole for a fence post or branch to drop into and the hole does not have to be rammed or even filled. The force is only acting in one direction. Same as burying your spare wheel. All you need is a bit of solid ground for the item to be pulled against.

I know everyone has their own opinion about things and tends to stick with what they are used to. I am not saying your plate will not work. I am saying that it will not work if it is still in the shed, and my experience tells me that of the few times I have been stuck, most of them were not expected and I did not have any special equipment with me. My idea can make use of many different items which can be chosen to suit the situation. Geometrically speaking it is about as close to perfect as you can get under the circumstances. If your plate utilised bars that could be tied back at an angle to resist the bending / tilting from the cable force then it would certainly be an excellent attachment point on any surface. Of course it would have to be with you and not in the shed. In my case I know what the chances are of that being the case. :D

Re the old Ford jacks, I can remember many people being dead against them. I loved them. I never had a failure, which I cannot say for the current scissor jacks. A scissor jack requires a lot of force to lift from a low level. Guess what level a car is when it has a flat tyre. I have had one fail. The old jacks lift the vehicle quite high which is good when you are bogged. I have seen some that have been badly treated. Like everything, if you treat them right? I guess it is the usual thing of not treating the jack the right way and then complaining when they fail. Many people don't have a clue.

I was called to help with changing a flat a while back. It was about 4km from home. The car was on flat firm ground. The tyre was destroyed. Funny because the car was on the way to have a couple more tyres fitted. Tyres that I had given her from my old car. The house where she stopped was a friend of her ex husband. Yes, he turns up again, sort of. This friend offered a trolley jack. The handle he provided with it bent at the first application of force. It was rusty from laying in the back of the ute. Yes, peas in a pod. What did I say about having a clue? I think I managed it with my scissor jack, but it was very difficult. I think a screw jack is probably the most versatile. They can be operated with a cordless drill and the force required is constant regardless of the height, until you hit the top that is. :rolleyes:

Dean

Retromilling
21st Aug 2017, 02:50 PM
Tied together just as you describe but there is a few methods .369505
When I say solid ground I mean not wet and mushy . Dry even damp sand can be more solid than wet mushy mud ground for this purpose .
On wet mushy mud ground the stakes can just slowly pull through the mud and come out .
You are wrong about the flat plate system it's better than the others mentioned in some ways . It keeps all the force right at ground level and the bars are easier to drive than star posts and easier to retrieve . That's why rescue people use that system above other improvised rescue points it's well proven system but you don't know that .
I don't have opinions I have 45 years of bush driving experience in all kinds of conditions . I don't build something unless I have seen it work before . Don't be so quick to condemn and make assumptions Dean on something you have no experience with .
It works when it's needed and in the shed when it's not needed your comment is dumb.

Oldneweng
21st Aug 2017, 06:15 PM
I am comparing like for like in which case having the top of the stakes tied back against the tension will help the ability to hold. This is logic. Equal stakes, but with one method having the tops tied back.


Don't be so quick to condemn and make assumptions Dean on something you have no experience with .

I am not condemming nor making assumptions.


When I say solid ground I mean not wet and mushy

Fair point, but the method I use is intended to be used in soft ground so I did find your comment unusual.

You show in the pictures that the pull is horizontal or below. Most situations would have a pull angled up to an attachment point on a vehicle. This adds an upwards vector to the tension, which my system mostly negates. My idea is like method 2 although the second and third stakes would be much further out. 45 deg or more. The plate method would work ok in harder ground where the risk of stakes pulling out is much less.

With any upward angled pull there is a tendency for the anchor point to try to lift. My method physically holds this point at the ground. If anything the cable will sink into the ground, not lift. In the ground I am familiar with the plate method would lift. This is probably why I have never seen it used. Both methods can be suitable in the right conditions, but the advantage of mine is that it can be improvised from materials available.


the bars are easier to drive than star posts and easier to retrieve

Star droppers were only an example of what can be available. I am not talking about them specifically. Compare with the same bars as you are using except long enough to tie at the top. Like for like. As the ground gets softer my idea becomes the better option. Please do not make assumptions about what I mean.


It keeps all the force right at ground level

Both methods do.


It works when it's needed and in the shed when it's not needed your comment is dumb.

Thank you for your tolerance. For it to work you have to have it with you and my comment was that "I" would not have it when I needed it so if you think I am dumb then so be it.


That's why rescue people use that system above other improvised rescue points

Sure they do, and it would be a part of their normal equipment, carried around all the time. Maybe different locations have different methods due to local conditions. In my area hard ground is very unusual. It is mostly sand, West and South to the coast and North probably all the way to the interior.

You need to stop making this personal. Insults are not necessary.

Dean

BaronJ
23rd Aug 2017, 07:56 AM
Hi Retromilling,

Thank you for your kind words. Making the most out of what you have will always be a compromise in some way or other. I found that the cost of solar panels from caravan and camper suppliers were incredulously expensive and everything else was an extra cost.

A Chinese charge controller was very cheap and in the case of a high voltage panel absolutely necessary. Whilst I can see that using the bonnet space would help, I'm not at all sure that the very thin glass substrate would survive on there. The glass of my panel is only 3 mm thick and it is only the rigid frame that prevents breakage. You can actually see it flex when a large lorry comes past at any speed. Touch wood it is still in one piece and still provides substantial power.

Now having said that, I have seen caravans with fairly small panels hung horizontally from windows, similar to the clothes dryers that some hang out. One chap I chatted with said that he got his from a hardware store and that it was quite cheap, £30 or there abouts and was rated at 35 watts. He said that it produced enough power to keep his leisure battery charged for the evening TV viewing. I thought it a bit small at about a foot square when folded in half, so about 12 X 24 inches producing 13.5 volts in full sunlight.

As far as my RV is concerned, I decided to treat my self to a brand new van for Xmas 2015, after my old one of 12 years use became uneconomical to repair. I've been doing bits and bobs for the past couple of years or so, as I could afford and manage. At the moment I'm doing the top lockers. I've still got a roof vent to fit in the shower/toilet roof, and I haven't put the TV or satellite dish in yet :U

jack620
23rd Aug 2017, 08:23 AM
PS. I just got a bit of an idea . I could put a folding solar panel across the bonnet , ....

Are you thinking of mounting the panel only when parked at say a caravan park? And removing it when driving?