PDA

View Full Version : New 'Joe-Peter' collet blocks



jhovel
28th Jun 2017, 03:17 AM
I may have invented a new ER collet block design. It was my original thought, but other may well have had the same thought - and I just can't find any evidence.
So here goes:
I decided to make some 'Stephenson' ER collet blocks. A four-sided and a hex one. to suit ER32 collets. Only I wanted the blocks larger in cross-section than the collet nut, so I could use them on the surface grinder - directly on the magnetic chuck, rather than in a vice on the magnetic chuck.
On a mill, however, when I thought about holding the hex block in a vice, I figured that either the sides were held in the jaws or the corners (with either a flat on the bottom or a corner). So in my mind, the corners should not be sharp. Then I figured that the corner 'breaks' could be machined to be parallel to each other to facilitate locating and holding in a vice without damage. The next thing that came to mind was "why not make the machined corners the same width as the flat?". And then it struck me: with a twelve-sided (duo-decagon) block profile, you don't need a square profiled block at all!
I ran the idea by my friend Peter, who thinks like I do and we share equipment and shed time. We decided that we'd make two - one for each of us to evaluate and use.
So here we go with a proof of concept:

368556
Raw (mystery steel - but tough) stock
368557
Turned to size then milled into duo-decagon shape in rotary table
368558
Ground flats
368559
Cut in half to make the two blocks
368560
Drilled and bored to roughly 26mm,
then threaded for the first ER32 nut thread
368562
Nut attached.

What do you think so far?

Next step is getting the second block to this state, then boring and grinding the 16 degree tapers for collets.
Photos coming when done - maybe later in the week.....

BaronJ
28th Jun 2017, 03:49 AM
Nice one Joe ! I like that idea.

jhovel
28th Jun 2017, 04:26 AM
Thanks Baron. I'll post how they work in use when done. The proof is in the pudding......
I should be able to machine or grind one, two, three, four, six and twelve sided objects, plus eight-sided using V-blocks. I'll try. :)

caskwarrior
28th Jun 2017, 09:01 AM
I think they look great, my only hesitation is in making them so wide they would be difficult to keep a hold of in shallower vices. This wpuld probably be more of an issue with er40 than 32. Look forward to more progress!

Michael G
28th Jun 2017, 10:42 AM
Co-incidentally, you'd never guess what I made up yesterday...
You probably don't need to grind the tapered bore. The collet chuck I made for my lathe is only MS bored out on the lathe and is coping quite well after many years.
I did think about making mine big enough to clear the (ER40 = 63mm) nut but started getting into a 'where do you stop' loop. Heavier too. As my grinder chuck is only 4" wide, by the time the holder was located across the table I would not have much room left to grind. If I needed to do that I was going to get a solid bit of plate and hang that over the edge of the mag chuck so clamping was done off table and allow the workpiece to be over the chuck.

Michael

.RC.
28th Jun 2017, 12:21 PM
Here is a 12 sided ER40 one I made back in 2010.

Due to the small clamping surfaces it tends to move unless squashed very tight.

368565

jhovel
28th Jun 2017, 01:14 PM
Here is a 12 sided ER40 one I made back in 2010.

Due to the small clamping surfaces it tends to move unless squashed very tight.


Great minds think alike! Snap.
Thanks for the warning about clamping.
On mine, the flats are 14mm wide. I would think that's enough 'meat', but thanks nonetheless.

jhovel
28th Jun 2017, 01:18 PM
Co-incidentally, you'd never guess what I made up yesterday...
Michael

You got to be kidding me... How's that????
I'll see what the surface finish turns out like in the taper on this steel. Thanks for the feedback on mild steel chuck longevity.

Michael G
28th Jun 2017, 07:14 PM
For the record -
368568
Flats on this one are 28mm wide.

Michael

jhovel
28th Jun 2017, 09:28 PM
Nice work Michael!
I give you 'permission' - and I suspect R.C. would too - to mill off the six edges :)

bob ward
29th Jun 2017, 12:22 AM
The big hex block gets a fair bit of use. Its a piece of 2.25" 1020 hex, the ER32 taper is turned and finger ground. The round one is made from tough mystery metal, I find it useful in the 4 jaw for cutting eccentrics.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff28/sirrobertthegood/IMG_4190.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/sirrobertthegood/media/IMG_4190.jpg.html)

eskimo
3rd Jul 2017, 12:40 PM
368557

What do you think so far?



"what do I think so far" did you make me some too!?

:2tsup:

jhovel
3rd Jul 2017, 10:21 PM
Thanks. We've finished them both now, but I'm away from home and can't try it or send photos until the weekend....

DSEL74
5th Jul 2017, 07:26 PM
Are the skinny flats going to hold on a mag chuck??

I'm predicting a small batch should be run off. :wink:

eskimo
6th Jul 2017, 09:03 AM
I'm predicting a small batch should be run off. :wink:

he ignored my comment, so I'm guessing your prediction wont come true...lol

jhovel
6th Jul 2017, 11:28 PM
Until I've tried them out, I'm not making any comments on how good they will hold on a magnet chuck nor on any ideas of making more.
Who knows, if they are any good, I might talk to one of my contacts in China about a run....

BaronJ
7th Jul 2017, 03:41 AM
Hi Joe,

Certainly a very handy tool to have, ARC Euro in the UK do square and hex ones.

jhovel
8th Jul 2017, 09:21 PM
Hi Baron,
that's where the idea came from or course: Stephenson blocks. John Stephenson came up with the design and licensed Arc Euro to have them made.
That's why I called these ones 'Joe-Peter blocks' - tongue in cheek....

BaronJ
9th Jul 2017, 01:52 AM
Well when you get them into production, I want one ! :):):)

jhovel
11th Jul 2017, 02:54 AM
Prototypes finished and tested. :2tsup:
The relatively narrow 'lands' on the duodecagon body are indeed a little too small to hold securely ACROSS a magnetic chuck. They hold fine straddling a few magnetic poles longways, but they only sit on a single pole across the chuck. However, due to every facet having two at right angles, they turn out to be very secure when blocked in o either side. The flux lines appear to join two blocks and the duodecagon very securely. I've ground a couple of trials without problems. Photos of some 'proper' test pieces to follow. Holding the collet blocks in a milling vice will make this rock solid for milling I think.
We attempted to just machine the 16 deg included angle for the collet taper, but the contact lines remained too narrow for our liking. So I ended up grinding them. I used a tiny but very true running 5mm diameter CBN point I have in my 50k rpm air pencil mounted in the toolpost and it worked extremely well.
Blueing the collet contact showed almost the entire taper is contacting.
I'm very happy with the result. But they should be made from harder material or case hardened. This steel marks too easily as it turn out.
368724 368725 368726 368727

snapatap
8th Aug 2017, 09:35 PM
look what popped up on ebay
Unique Joe Collet ER40 Block with Ball bear Nut--Patent Pending | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Unique-Joe-Collet-ER40-Block-with-Ball-bear-Nut-Patent-Pending/282603016662)

DSEL74
8th Aug 2017, 10:02 PM
Who wrote the description?



Unique Joe Collet ER40 Block with Ball bear Nut--Patent Pending---
It is our patent pending products now .
It can have many change .
So that you can used better ER40 collet set for many different working .




http://rover.ebay.com/roversync/?site=0&stg=1&mpt=1502189967485

BaronJ
8th Aug 2017, 11:00 PM
Hi Joe,

By gum that was quick !

KBs PensNmore
9th Aug 2017, 12:24 AM
Cheeky blighters, Patent Pending my butt, sees it on here sends a copy to his mates over there and hey presto.
Be nice to find out when the "Patent" was "registered"????
Kryn

jhovel
9th Aug 2017, 08:37 AM
The real story is that I applied for a development patent. I then contacted my acquaintance Felix Wu and asked him if he was interested in collaborating with me - without telling him any datails. I asked him to check the interest of his acquainted and trusted manufacturers in China, and to machining capabilities.
I then sent him a detailed drawing for an ER40 version to get a quote.
We negotiated a licence fee and a retail price range.
The first samples of 5 units arrived yesterday in Melbourne.
In extensive correspondence with me, he ordered an initial production run of 500 units to be made and ordered 500 matching ball bearing collet closing nuts.
All at his expenses.
So in a few weeks (when I'm back in Australia), these collect block will be exclusively available from MagPro in Melbourne.

So no, nothing is wrong, stolen or cheeky.

Just to explain my previous silence on the topic, I was advised not to publicise any further details until all the documentation was finalized - which happened today.
So far, MagPro and Felix Wu is respected and reliable business and person.
Sorry I had to leave you in the dark into now.

Sent from my InFocus M808 using Tapatalk

Oldneweng
9th Aug 2017, 11:12 AM
Sorry I had to leave you in the dark into now.

Ha ha, you're forgiven.

Great stuff Joe. Whatever happened to being retired? I wondered and hoped you were behind this. It just seemed a bit too coincidental and quick to be otherwise.

Dean

BaronJ
9th Aug 2017, 08:44 PM
Hi Joe,

Thanks for the explanation ! I guessed as much :) Could do with the grammar sorting on the listing though.

Now when do I get mine ?

MasterSpoon
9th Aug 2017, 10:34 PM
Please for the love of god put the collet in the collet nut properly then take your photos again on the Ebay listing

You / Magpro may also want to note in the listing that the collet is not included (unless you are including one) as pictures make up part of the description and may end up with disputes or bad feedback.

Cheers
Wayne

KBs PensNmore
9th Aug 2017, 11:50 PM
Thanks for the explanation Joe, and my apologies to MagPro. Seemed a bit strange that it ran the same name as you called them.
Glad to see they're in production.
Kryn

PDW
11th Aug 2017, 02:03 PM
The real story is that I applied for a development patent.

Not trying to take anything away from you Joe, but just how can they issue a patent of any type for what is an obvious variant of a well established item?

Good luck to you but I can't see that it's valid. I've seen a lot of bogus stuff claimed in software patents so I'm a bit sensitive about this sort of thing.

PDW

jhovel
12th Aug 2017, 05:58 AM
Hi Peter.
There is patent category called "Innovation Patent" in Australia for exactly this sort of incremental development. I also have not been issued with it yet, but the application is registered. That may be enough to stop someone else buggering up the sales of the first production batch. At least we hope so :)


Sent from my InFocus M808 using Tapatalk

KBs PensNmore
12th Aug 2017, 11:19 PM
Hi Joe,
Wish I'd known about the "Innovation Patent" 20 years ago.
Kryn

Michael G
13th Aug 2017, 09:12 AM
It was very similar to what was known as a 'Petty patent'. It probably would not matter though - some of the flaws with the patent system are that the holder is the one who has to defend the patent, and it only applies in the country that it is granted in. Therefore if someone in say India decides to make and sell Joe's holder there and a patent has not been granted in that country, there is nothing he can do to stop them. Further more, if someone decided to import those India holders into Australia, Joe would have to stump up the cash to prove a patent infringement. Even if he was in the right, it would not take long before any profit he has made is used up in lawyer's fees.
Patents sound appealing but really they are not usually a viable option for a low cost product with a niche market.

Michael

PDW
20th Aug 2017, 09:51 PM
Patents sound appealing but really they are not usually a viable option for a low cost product with a niche market.

Michael

The biological (patenting genes) and software patents granted that never should have been has made the system a farce. I think that the cost of enforcement falling on the patent holders is an excellent thing.

AFAIK you can only recover actual losses too, no penalty damages, and it's a strictly civil case. I could probably have patented various bits of software but far too much hassle for no return other than kudos.

PDW

jhovel
9th Dec 2017, 07:12 PM
The whole idea of a patent like this is to formally register when you want to start manufacture. Not kudos or preventing others innovating.
It gives protection from someone else demanding loyalties for something THEY have registered or patented. The patent application identifies who registered what first and who owes royalties or license fees to whom.
So if you developed or invented something you want to manufacture, then a patent application is good insurance.

jhovel
9th Dec 2017, 07:24 PM
Well, as proposed, ER32 12-sided collet blocks (with a larger across-the-flats dimension than the nut diameter) have been made. They will arrive in Australia shortly.
As with the ER40 blocks available already, they will allow 1,2,3,4,6 and 12 position direct indexing and workpiece replacement without removal from jigs or fixtures. Both can also be used vertically, as there are no protrusions on the end opposite the collet and nut.
M&G Productions (http://www.mag-pro.com.au/) are the sole distributor in Australia, USA, Europe and China.
http://www.mag-pro.com.au/images/201710/thumb_img/252_thumb_P_1508216249131.jpg

.RC.
9th Dec 2017, 07:49 PM
The biological (patenting genes) and software patents granted that never should have been has made the system a farce. I think that the cost of enforcement falling on the patent holders is an excellent thing.

AFAIK you can only recover actual losses too, no penalty damages, and it's a strictly civil case. I could probably have patented various bits of software but far too much hassle for no return other than kudos.

PDW

Do they actually patent genes or processes to identify genes. For example last year or the year before there was a court case over a breast cancer gene. From what I understand, a company had managed to patent a process to be able to isolate or identify the gene and that is what the court case was over.

Michael G
10th Dec 2017, 07:23 AM
Do they actually patent genes or processes to identify genes. For example last year or the year before there was a court case over a breast cancer gene. From what I understand, a company had managed to patent a process to be able to isolate or identify the gene and that is what the court case was over.

That patent should not have been granted in the first place; the rules are that naturally occurring things (like genes) can not be patented. The process they used was not new and for that matter not even very novel. The court case was to knock the patent on the head. I wrote about this case when studying IP law. To me the most ridiculous thing was that under the patent if you tested for the gene and were positive you actually (in theory) infringed the patent.


The whole idea of a patent like this is to formally register when you want to start manufacture. Not kudos or preventing others innovating.
It gives protection from someone else demanding loyalties for something THEY have registered or patented. The patent application identifies who registered what first and who owes royalties or license fees to whom.
So if you developed or invented something you want to manufacture, then a patent application is good insurance.

We may have to agree to disagree here Joe. The purpose of a patent is to put a peg in the ground, and it is meant to formally establish who invented something 'first'. In reality it establishes who got to the patent office first. However, the way the system has developed it is a shambles. Two issues I have with it are -

The system is slanted heavily towards large companies who have the money to file patents and to pay to defend them.
Because most patents are published on the internet, it means that anyone in the world can see your patent, regardless of where your patent applies. As you have to apply for patents country by country (and there are around 186 of them at the moment I think). Some guy in say Italy can see your patent, decide it is a good idea and (if you haven't got an EU patent) make and distribute them without penalty

My view is that for items that have no great complexity and can be easily copied a patent only draws attention to your idea while not giving any real protection. They only become valuable when there is a novel scientific/ engineering principle involved, preferably one which takes some brain power to copy (Australian law says you must show 'the best way' to make implement your invention these days) and involving a confidential proprietary process.

Michael

eskimo
10th Dec 2017, 09:01 AM
is it true that some countries do not recognise or abide with the laws of patents?

jhovel
10th Dec 2017, 03:28 PM
......We may have to agree to disagree here Joe. .....
Michael

Happy to, Michael.
The point I was making about me applying for a patent was to protect myself from being asked to pay royalties by someone else who got to the patent office later than me starting manufacture and distribution.

I agree that the whole thing is a shambles and probably only relevant to large companies and complex 'embodiments' of ideas.

I was mostly curious about the process and its shapes and forms. The expenses of defending a patent if you actually got one (and paid for it) are truly horrendous.

Michael G
10th Dec 2017, 05:55 PM
is it true that some countries do not recognise or abide with the laws of patents?


Sort of - officially they do (they have signed the treaty) but it takes a while to get things moving if you spot an infringement.

Michael

topari
28th Apr 2018, 12:21 AM
As an enhancement maybe add a thread to the rear so one can put in stops say a simple bolt with two nuts. Useful for batch work.
Regards,
Tom

jhovel
28th Apr 2018, 09:46 PM
As an enhancement maybe add a thread to the rear so one can put in stops say a simple bolt with two nuts. Useful for batch work.
Regards,
TomHi Tom, thanks for your interest in developing the ER blocks.
I must admit I can't picture your suggestion. Where are you suggesting the thread to be cut? In the bore? (26mm on ER32 and 30mm on ER40 blocks).
Or just an axial hole or two into the endface opposite the collet end?


Cheers, Joe

KBs PensNmore
29th Apr 2018, 02:31 AM
Hi Joe, I think what Tom's refering to, is a threaded hole in the back of the block to be able to set up a stop arrangement, for doing multiple copies. Possibly an 8mm thread would suffice, it would be easier to do before they were hardened, rather than trying to do it afterwards.
Kryn

Michael G
29th Apr 2018, 07:34 AM
I did it like this on the 'Michael Block'
373038

I could have gone smaller but figured that I could use my 3/8" clamp set and save having more loose pieces floating around.
The base has keys and a clamping hole in it so that it can be secured to the bed and the collet block removed and replaced without losing position. For longer parts that bracket is removed (it can also turn around and act as a stop only on the 6 sided block); length control is then done with a miscellanious item clamped to the mill bed. Its section is also 12 sided so that I can do square sections for example just by turning the collet part. Repeatability on all 12 positions was better than 0.1mm from memory.

Michael