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simonl
16th Jun 2017, 06:38 PM
Couple of weeks ago I drove up from Melbourne to pick up a mill in the foot of the Blue Mountains west of Sydney. It was a renovators delight (which seems to be the theme to most of my SH machine acquistions). The seller was a young guy who was a machinist and had hopes of re-building it after purchasing it from a previous employer. However, being stored at his parents place 2 hours drive from him, time got away from him and before long, his dad requested for his shed space back.

It was explained to me that the head needed a major rebuild and that the boiler maker at this work place took it upon himself to do the job. Needless to say the machine spent a prolonged period of time in a state of disassembly. Most of the nuts and bolts were missing and there was no real guarentee that all the majot components were accounted for.

Also there was no knowledge as to whether the Sony magnascale 2 axis DRO was working, the motor from the power feed on the X axis was reported to be missing too. The spindle was reported to be in OK condition as were the ways.

On this information I took a punt and bought it. One of the initial observations I have made is that the machine has the model number FT-2 clearly labelled on it. These machines came in two variations, FTV-2 and FT-2 FTV-2 has infinately variable spindle speed from about 50 - 4200 rpm via means of a CV belt. The FT-2 designation has 8 speeds via the use of a step pulley. So my machine shows FT-2 but has the infinately variable speed head. Work that one out!

The Sony 2 axis DRO has been switched on and works nicely. The power feed on the X axis is NOT missing the motor and is merely missing a plastic cover. Other variations of these power feeds clearly show a motor attached externally to the power feed module but this power feed is more the usual type.

The variable speed head has two variable pulleys that move up and down on glacier bushes. These bushes have been flogged out and look like the machine has been used even after the pulleys were spinning on the shaft, which is not the best but easily fixable.

Using a parts diagram from an owners manual and roughly organising all the parts together, it appears that the only components missing are 2 circlips, a 6004 bearing, a 16mm BMS shaft of 220mm long and all the various standard metric cap screws (about 20 in total) used to put it all together.

While I don't plan on "working" omn this machine for a few weeks, I did want to keep it inside my shed and to do that I needed to disassemble it for ease of movability. One thing leads to another of course so I started cleaning the major parts before dragging into the shed. This started with the colonm and base.

The base has built into it a coolant reservoir. Sounds like a great idea, until you need to clean the 40 years of crap out of it! I decided to unbolt the base from the colonm in order to make it easier. Still took numerous cleans involving a hand trowel, degreaser and a wet/dry vacuum to get it looking OK.

Same with the external base and column. I hate working on dirty machines so there is no way its coming into the shed before it's clean!

Now I am also faced with what to do were the bondo has come off and revealing bare metal. What do others do? Just paint over it leaving an uneven surface? i'm not keen to spend too much time painting this machine, especially since I am yet to find out just how good it will end up.

Edit: just for interest, these mills seemed to have been made under several names. Lagun (Republic of Lagun) is the other name used. Both seem to be made in Spain, although the Lagun badge seems to have been popular in the US.

Pics to follow....

Simon

simonl
16th Jun 2017, 06:53 PM
368383368384368385368386368387

Pic 2 and 3 are showing the insides and the coolant reservoir after cleaning. Pic 4 shows all the parts disassembled on my shed floor and pic 5 shows what "cleaning" will do. Do I just run a brush over that?

Simon

jhovel
16th Jun 2017, 07:26 PM
I think you will regret just painting over the chipped off filler. Just spend a little time removing everything loose, put some rust converter on it, spray with etch primer then a quick fill with body filler (polyester or epoxy). Then a little sanding and coat of grey primer. You can always paint it properly later on then...

Toggy
16th Jun 2017, 07:55 PM
Simon,

It appears to have a single stage elevating screw on the knee. If this is the case I suggest you make careful measurements on how far the bottom of the screw descends when fully down. You may have to knock a hole in your concrete floor to take the extra length. If the vertical leadscrew hits a solid surface on rapid 'down'; the resulting casting damage in the knee is not pretty; and character building repairing.

Ken

simonl
16th Jun 2017, 08:39 PM
Thanks Joe & Ken.

Joe, I'm happy to invest some time into the cosmetics once I know it will be a good mill. It seems a bit pointless to pretty the mill up only to find it can't mill flat to within reasonable tolerances. It won't be long before I have some idea. I just need to re-assemble the knee, saddle and table and then run a DI from the ram across the table.

Ken, I had wondered if the leadscrew protrudes below floor level (under the base) when the knee is all the way down. It will eventually be on machine screw jacks which will add 50mm or so. It has no "rapid down" as the knee is lowered by hand. I think I would feel the extra resistance of the leadscrew hitting the floor before any damage is done. The machine came with a 200mm riser block which when fitted, makes the top of the ram 2.2M high. When the knee is fully up, I would need a shoe box to see properly over the table which is why I plan on leaving it out.

You say a single stage elevating screw, I don't have much knowledge/experience with these type of mills. My current mill is a Chinese geared head mill which bares no comparison to this. What other types of screw do knee mills have?

One thing is for sure, it's really nice going from a cheap machine to a machine of reasonable build quality.

Simon

Toggy
16th Jun 2017, 09:56 PM
Simon,

I am guessing that the riser block is to allow air space under the base for clearance of the vertical screw. The mill looks like it may have a reasonable amount of travel on the vertical; so that long screw has to go somewhere. What I did with my Rossi was knocked a hole through the concrete floor and then concreted a piece of 100 sewer pipe in the hole about 375 deep. I left the top about 30mm above floor height to keep foreign bits/water out. Any sort of of sump/well would do.

By multistage screw; I mean one that has a number of screws that thread inside each other; like the old Holden screw jacks. My Macson shaper has this arrangement and somewhere on the forum are photos of it. I am not sure if any mills used this arrangement as they would be harder to make than just a single screw.

Ken

simonl
16th Jun 2017, 10:59 PM
The riser block was an optional extra available with this mill. I think many makes of machines included this type of accessory. It adds 200mm of headroom between the spindle head and the table. It just increases the work envelope for milling of taller objects.

Simon

Toggy
17th Jun 2017, 09:51 AM
Simon,

Righto; I am on the same page now. I was wrongly thinking of a riser stand under the base to lift the whole machine. The Rossi has about 450mm vertical travel on the table and when it is set up for horizontal milling the table is at high chest height. The extra clearance under the spindle is good; as a job I did yesterday involved the vertical head and 200mm rotary table with a 3 jaw chuck on it. I needed every bit of vertical travel to clear the job. With a DRO at least you can clamp the job direct to the table and use the DRO for hole spacings.

Ken

simonl
17th Jun 2017, 04:17 PM
Hi Ken,

Unfortunately, this particular DRO does not have the facility for PCD hole drilling. It appears to be a very basic DRO. I was a bit disappointed by that too.

On the plus side WRT DRO's, I have been using a basic DRO fitted to my Chinese geared head mill and remember how it made life so much better after installing it. Now this machine has an LED DRO, I have to say, looking at an LED DRO is even better again since you can look at the display from any direction and so much easier to read.

Simon

Michael G
17th Jun 2017, 05:16 PM
Unfortunately, this particular DRO does not have the facility for PCD hole drilling. It appears to be a very basic DRO. I was a bit disappointed by that too.

Have a look around the middle of your Zeus book. It has all the coordinates there to drill up to 12 holes on a PCD. Of course, on those long night shifts without any where to go to warm up, you could write a spreadsheet that would do up to any number of holes that you like.

Michael

simonl
17th Jun 2017, 06:45 PM
Hi Michael,

yep I know the little black Zeus book has PCD calcs. I never gave it a thought to set up a spread sheet but that's as good as anything else. It did cross my mind to look for an app for my phone though. Ultimately it's a nice to have. In the past I have used a RT to do bolt holes but I guess using PCD calcs would be a lot quicker.

Simon

Oldneweng
17th Jun 2017, 07:40 PM
Hi Michael,

It did cross my mind to look for an app for my phone though. Ultimately it's a nice to have.

Simon

I hope you do better with that than your photos. :D

Dean

simonl
17th Jun 2017, 07:54 PM
It's not the first time my photos have been criticised...

Simon

snapatap
17th Jun 2017, 09:33 PM
If you have a i phone CNC mate has a really good PCD calc. Not sure if it is available for android.

Oldneweng
18th Jun 2017, 11:56 AM
It's not the first time my photos have been criticised...

Simon

Not having the pictures the right way up makes it very difficult for me to comprehend and it does not take very much to fix the problem. If you can't be bothered then that is your problem. I am not going to make it mine. I just skip past any photos like that. It seems a typical attitude of people on the net is that they don't care about what they post.

The camera I usually use for forum pictures cost me $64.00 and is quite old now. I guess this is a tiny fraction of what your phone cost.

Dean

.RC.
18th Jun 2017, 01:37 PM
If you have a i phone CNC mate has a really good PCD calc. Not sure if it is available for android.


It should be, there are a zillion more android phones then apple ones.

I use Machinist Calculator Pro. It is a paid app, but very good.

simonl
18th Jun 2017, 02:18 PM
Not having the pictures the right way up makes it very difficult for me to comprehend and it does not take very much to fix the problem. If you can't be bothered then that is your problem. I am not going to make it mine. I just skip past any photos like that. It seems a typical attitude of people on the net is that they don't care about what they post.

The camera I usually use for forum pictures cost me $64.00 and is quite old now. I guess this is a tiny fraction of what your phone cost.

Dean

Turn your screen on it's side and stop complaining. These are problems of a first world country. I'll see if I can put more effort into my photos next time. Yes, my phone cost more than your camera, but it also makes phone calls... :2tsup:

Simon

Oldneweng
18th Jun 2017, 03:01 PM
Turn your screen on it's side and stop complaining. These are problems of a first world country. I'll see if I can put more effort into my photos next time. Yes, my phone cost more than your camera, but it also makes phone calls... :2tsup:

Simon


I cannot turn my screen. It is fixed.

Your phone won't make phone calls here, and it does not seem to be much good at taking pictures either. :D

I would appreciate your efforts. I am still waiting for the splitter build. :2tsup:

Dean

simonl
18th Jun 2017, 04:56 PM
I cannot turn my screen. It is fixed.

Your phone won't make phone calls here, and it does not seem to be much good at taking pictures either. :D

I would appreciate your efforts. I am still waiting for the splitter build. :2tsup:

Dean

I must admit I'm yet to work out which orientation to take them. I assume I need to always use portrait. Nothing wrong with the phone. It takes more than a good camera to make a good photographer!

The splitter is still waiting patiently. The last thing I did on that (the rear ram pin assembly) I stuffed up and need to re-do. I hate having to do things twice! To add further pressure to the splitter build, my wife has since had the luxurious experience of using a splitter and now her interest in that particular project has gone to zero to lots!

Edit: So, while it's always fun to play with a new toy and start stripping and cleaning it, I really need to show (some) restraint and have a more "measured" approach to this.

Simon

Oldneweng
18th Jun 2017, 07:35 PM
I must admit I'm yet to work out which orientation to take them. I assume I need to always use portrait. Nothing wrong with the phone. It takes more than a good camera to make a good photographer!

The splitter is still waiting patiently. The last thing I did on that (the rear ram pin assembly) I stuffed up and need to re-do. I hate having to do things twice! To add further pressure to the splitter build, my wife has since had the luxurious experience of using a splitter and now her interest in that particular project has gone to zero to lots!

Simon

I would presume that portrait is the right orientation. This is where phones are not good cameras. They show you the picture in the correct orientation, but save it in the orientation it was taken. You don't know which way up it is later on. My understanding anyway. Fancy features that are only half done.

368412

I saved your first picture after opening in another tab to get full size. When I opened it in a graphics viewer it was still side on. I rotated it, saved it again and uploaded it. It should be the right way up now. This tells me that the photo was taken with the camera rotated to the left. Try uploading a picture taken in portrait mode.

The other issue with camera phones is that they have a weird ratio of horizontal to vertical which encourages people to keep rotating them to get a better composition.

Did you go out and leave your wife with no wood for the fire? That was a good plan on your part, or not. :D

simonl
19th Jun 2017, 08:59 AM
Thanks Dean.

WRT the wood splitter, the story goes something like this;


We went collecting firewood on my sisters property a few months back. The Bros. in law and myself felled and cut while the sis and my wife split on the log splitter my sister has. My wife was so impressed with the whole hydraulic log splitter experience that her attention soon turned to the one I am making and how much longer before it's finished!

Most of my projects in the shed have no real time contraints or time pressures but now it seems that the wife is taking a keen interest in seeing this project come to fruition. Still, at least she is showing some interest and will no doubt appreciate the design features I will/have built into it once it's done.

On a side note, I started stripping back the loose bondo on the base and colunm and have treated these areas with rust converter, prior to priming. I can see I have creasted alot of work for myself. I hope it's worth it. Thanks Joe for getting in my head! :doh: I have looked at some you tube videos of people in the US restoring bridgeports. I understand they are a sentimental machine to restore since they are an america icon, boy some of the work that goes into the body work alone is amazing!

I have also seen a few youtube videos of scraping these machines. I could be wrong but I get the impression that some of these people only scrape the flats and conveniently ignor the dovetails...

Simon

Oldneweng
19th Jun 2017, 10:25 AM
I hope you have been following my current splitter thread. You are sure to get some good ideas from that. :2tsup:

I have been wanting to see scraping of dovetails. I have no intention of doing it myself any time soon (or ever) as I don't have the time or equipment, but I am just interested.

Dean

simonl
19th Jun 2017, 12:01 PM
I hope you have been following my current splitter thread. You are sure to get some good ideas from that. :2tsup:



I didn't know about that. Where on the forum is your log splitter. I would be interested in following it!

Simon

Oldneweng
19th Jun 2017, 12:29 PM
I didn't know about that. Where on the forum is your log splitter. I would be interested in following it!

Simon

I am sure you will find it useful. Maybe not the way you are thinking tho.

http://metalworkforums.com/f306/t200721-extraordinary-hydraulic-wood-splitter


Dean

simonl
20th Jun 2017, 05:25 PM
Actually, I saw that staright after you posted it as it came up on my phone. Bloody hell, no wonder my projects take so long..... I'm just overly fussy with the build! :C

On another note, I have partially re-assembled the saddle onto the knee, just to see how it fits and feels. As I suspected, the dovetails are worn in the middle so producing tightness at each end and loose in the middle. The Gibb is also out of adjustment. I suspected this might be the case when I was dis-assembling it.

Looks like I may be in the market for a suitable straight edge to enable me to scrape it in. Needless to say, I have suspended all paint/asthetic work on this and purely concentrating on the cleaning and an appraisal of how bad it is in other areas... I may get away with just the Y and perhaps the X. The knee and colunm actually look pretty good but since the colunm will utimately be used as a datum for the Y and X I will need to look at that closer anyway.

Simon

simonl
22nd Jun 2017, 11:15 PM
Amoung other tasks, I did a small amount on the mill today and happy with what I achieved. The variable speed pulley assembly needed two new glacier bushes replaced, one on the motor side and one on the spindle side. Only did the one on the motor today (spindle side will be done maybe next week) this required disassembly of the spring assembly. No where near as difficult as I had read about on various websites. There are 2 M5 threaded holes that allow you to compress the spring using a standard M5 bolt. Then it's just a matter of removing the circlip. The half pulley cone is removed, old bush pressed out and the new one put in. The other half of the pulley cone is static and was still a nice tight fit on the motor shaft so I left it alone.

Next thing was to look at the X axis leadscrew. The LHS 3 ball crank handle was damaged and the protruding shaft of the leadscrew was bent. The bend in the shaft was after the bearing mount and so did not create an issue of functionality, it stll looked awful and in any case, if I manage to breathe new life into the universal dividing head that came with the mill, it would need to run reasonably concentric if it's to run gears for sprial or helical milling for gears etc.

The protruding shaft narrows considerably after the bearing mount (goes from 22mm to 16mm) and so beding back to straight was trial and error in a vice and then chucking on the lathe and measuring the TIR, marking the high spot and then back to the vice etc. I got it to 0.1mm TIR and figured it was good enough. Another issue solved.

I'll still need a replacement ball handle for the LHS. The original one has a bush and a knurled grub screw, I assume it's so you can "disengage" the handle when using the power feed. The Y axis has a more standard 3 ball handle that mounts on a keyway. I remember Michael G made a 3 ball handle so I did a search and got some good tips.

Next up will be to replace the glacier bush on the driven pulley half. It has 2 slots each side to allow for the plastic keyways. The glacier bushes I bought are just stock standard generic glacier bushes with no slots, bought on ebay for $8 each (as opposed to $US 400 for a kit including the bearings and bushes from Lagun). Slotting should not take long at all. After that I will bore out the static pulley half that has been flogged out from turning on the shaft, make and fit a bronze bush, turn down the shaft to size and re-fit. That will be the variable speed drive ready for assembly.

A bit light on with pics which does nothing for people reading this. I will endevour to post some over the weekend. Sometimes I get so enthusiastic with progress that I forget to take pics!

Simon

simonl
27th Jun 2017, 03:36 PM
Had some time to do a bit more cleaning and assembly today.

Cleaned the ram and turret and reattached to the colonm.





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simonl
27th Jun 2017, 03:53 PM
Some pics showing the ram and knuckle (for want of a better term)

And the turret attachment part. Nothing too exciting or technical but i enjoyed disassembly just to appreciate the way they are made.

Mental note. When a nut, ring or screw is difficult to remove, always check for a locking grub screw!

Simonhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/35636a65ef3f22632c9418392cdfaf04.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/7defc1ef92767a44e9b482c148eb62d8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/fa64aefee1b78a1fbf5d1b8db6f17761.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/ae3191eb21a8cb31a565638725513f8f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/cae33f394331e2e4da0139033969a23b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/691d1d33a58f5d073ff3a308dee1344c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/38da77992708e24c24d7a24a1627280f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/c5724057ff9c66d5aa191ed224d7b9ec.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/2197c34f505fa5afb8022d5ede96d029.jpg

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simonl
29th Jun 2017, 02:46 PM
Hi all.

Yesterday i totally stripped the head including all the internal gears, clutch and quill feed system leaving a bare casting. Boy talk about an intricate piece of engineering! It tooj me a number of hours to work out the correct sequence of diassembly but i got there in the end. I really appreciate the effort thats gone into the design, casting and machining of these.

Disassembly only revealed one damaged part. This being where a pin engages the auto downfeed of the quill. I should be able to repair this. All the feed gears and overload clutch look good as does the spindle and quill although i cant seem to remove the draw bar yet.

Im yet to clean the parts and reassemble. Photos to come

Simon

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simonl
3rd Jul 2017, 06:00 PM
Head stripped and completely cleaned. Had to employ a combination of turps, tooth brush, wire brush and then a jet wash. Jet washing is a great way to clean these parts but i find they rust very quickly afterwards if not completely dried. So after a jet wash i dragged it in the house and sat it next to the wood heater in the living room. My wife, sitting on the couch, didnt even blink an eye. Shes so used to me! God love her.

Few pics of the head.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/17e311847869a32f2c68c8eef6824a79.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/3d8a3f1c49c8ec366c68c9dedb1530e4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/bacba7b8d396a37898749b07822ac4e3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/c0670a56590d700b5ca025de2cb7041a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/2587ba8131297b4f65bcb90658882610.jpg

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simonl
3rd Jul 2017, 06:03 PM
Pic of the damaged downfeed clutch housinghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/079c346cacc1b338a453f4fcfa9a69c8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/429ea539117fbd8a97e27b0367faad26.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/7af38b876f8321cb72f686a646354bc0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/98256da54fd18408fd95da594710a4f3.jpg

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Michael G
3rd Jul 2017, 07:58 PM
Shouldn't be too hard to make another one of them (seriously).
I guess you could take the easy way out and just braze on another ear.

Michael

simonl
7th Jul 2017, 10:05 PM
Well as luck would have it i have discovered another broken part. The Lagun part is called Upper tilter or the same part on a Bridgeport mill is called the reverse ball lever. Its part of the mechanical disengagement of the quill feed when the quill is fed up (reverse feed). This disengages the feed when the quill goes all the way up. Its probably one of the least used features on the mill and will work ok without it. However for completness i want to fix it.

The part is about 20mm long, has 3 balls about 6mm in diameter and joined with 4mm rod. Its tiny.

Making it would not be impossible but a PITA. I send an email to Lagun rep in the US with a part no. and description.

They have the part. US$185 [emoji22]

To their credit they even looked for a S/H part but none to be found. The equivalent Bridgeport part can be found on ebay etc. For around $25. Go figure!

Sounds like a great excuse to grind a form tool and make my own out of some 01 drill rod.

Cheers

Simon
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170707/412a535f01d73f87a26324e2a9afb848.jpg

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simonl
7th Jul 2017, 10:41 PM
Equivalent bridgeport part.


NEW Reverse Trip Ball Lever for Bridgeport Milling Mill | eBay (http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Reverse-Trip-Ball-Lever-for-Bridgeport-Milling-Mill-/300560702514)

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Toggy
8th Jul 2017, 07:50 AM
Simon,

Nice US style freight rip off for that small part. More than the item itself. The ebay postage rates have become ridiculous.

Another way to make is rough machine and hardened/tempered and finish ground with a formed grinding wheel.

Ken

BaronJ
8th Jul 2017, 08:04 AM
Hi Simon,

Some annealed bearing balls and silver steel ! Drill the balls and silver solder them onto the silver steel rod. Or if it isn't hardened drill the existing bits in the lathe, pin, and silver solder back together.

simonl
8th Jul 2017, 03:16 PM
Hi guys. Looks theres a few ways to takle this problem. Ken, can you heat ball bearings until they anneal and then drill them?

Sounds easy enough.

Meantime, the lower head is nearly back together. That has been a learning experience thats for sure.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170708/7666e8a595c2f65f06b4ad7b6ae91f8f.jpg

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simonl
10th Jul 2017, 05:23 PM
Did a little more work on the Pacific. Today I repaired the quill feed clutch handle support. The item that is missing an ear. The repair involved making a part that screws to the rear side of the existing part. The outside diameter of the barrel part of the clutch is approx. 28.3mm so I bored a piece of ms with a matching ID and an OD of 36.3mm giving a wall thickness of 4mm. I then cut a segment out of that part I made and welded the small ear.

After I drilled and tapped the holes M3, I screwed the part on making sure the sliding clutch did not catch any burrs or protruding screws. I then milled the ends flush and drilled the final hole in the ear last.

It's not the prettiest or most intricate work but it has brought it back into service.

Pics to follow...

Simon

simonl
10th Jul 2017, 05:25 PM
Pics...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170710/ec02a71fea9c720b4f859715299d1877.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170710/2e42f5ac27740fa6cdd93437f8aaa82f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170710/5799d98c909a691d498cb23603e3fe33.jpg

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simonl
11th Jul 2017, 12:21 PM
Good morning all,

This morning I modified my $8 glacier bush to fit the sliding half pulley for the variable speed. The factory glacier bushes have two keyways milled through each side to accomodate the plastic keys ways that transfer the power from the pully to the spindle. Needless to say my $8 glacier bush was just a plain bush and needed the slots milled in.

I decided to tackle this using a spin indexer on the mill. The bush has a nominal ID of 40mm so I made a mandrel (is that the correct term?) with a 40.08mm one side (slightly oversize to hold the bush a bit better) and 20mm the other, allowing my largest ER32 collet to hold it in the spindexer. For better gripping, I lined the mandrel with a sheet of paper, this also helps to protect the teflon coating on the inside of the bush.

The process was pretty straght forward but I did need to take more care than I first realised. Milling the slots in a couple of passes helped reduce the cutting loads since these spindexers are not the most rigid of things with such a large overhang. I also pilot drilled holes at each end since I only have milling cutters and not slot drills.

On a side note, I really made me appreciate the idea behind Joe H. ER collet holders. Not only do they take up much less room ( I had to mill the keyways using the y axis to fit the clamps) but they would not doubt be easier to use, less fidly and more rigid. Anyway, I got the job done.

After willing, it was just a matter of cleaning up with a file and test fitting the plastic keys before drifting it into the pulley cone half.

The next part is a little more involved but still reasonably straight forward. The second half of the pulley cone is fixed (does not slide) and should be a reasonable tight fit on the shaft however, the previous operator must have continued to use the mill after the bearings were flogged and in doing so, this pulley started turning on the shaft and wearing the shaft. The pulley is now a very loose fit on the shaft.

Both the pulley and the shaft will need to be turned down and a sleeve installed. I have a length of bronze for that job waiting. ...

Pics in the next post...

Simon

simonl
11th Jul 2017, 12:23 PM
Pics...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/9bbd721c5c0acc99488602470f2958a8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/aa44b301c00bcfda280f3a45121e3d8c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/6ba6b101985aaa62fc5655d33cd1b5ea.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/63d9f5f1b4b284d728ce799dc3839d88.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/a3ecbdfda282b84d6b1edafbe94ef204.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/7d6707a39d3589640bfca6657827afca.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/0576a5afc783ce7a34a528a7f20e3dfe.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/4cb28a2dc982c3c0d5c174d474e84490.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170711/e40eb97e5c0514b926cd005dbd5ff69e.jpg

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Toggy
11th Jul 2017, 07:52 PM
Simon,

It was BaronJ who mentioned the annealing of bearing balls. I have never tried to do so. I guess heating them to the anti-magnetic stage then slowly cooling them in lime may do the trick.

Ken

BaronJ
11th Jul 2017, 08:39 PM
Hi Simon,

It is quite a while back now, but I did the annealing thing on a 5/8" bearing ball, actually to make a ball ended handle. The chap who instructed me simply heated it up until it was just red and then put it in a coffee tin with fine white sand in it, burying the ball in the sand. It was then left until the following day. Drilling the hole in it was easy ! Clamp between two pieces of wood in the vice, drill a 5 mm hole 1/2" deep and thread M6. All that was needed after that was to polish the black coating off it. It ended up looking like it had been chrome plated. If you wanted, you could re-harden the ball by heating and quenching in oil.

HTH.

simonl
12th Jul 2017, 10:09 PM
Thanks Baron!

I am going to give that a try. Even if just for the interest of annealing bbs.

For my application, the most challenging part will be to centre drill a 6mm bb.

Im thinking of mounting a 6mm er collet vertically. Centering it with the spindle and then centre drill the bb.

Maybe i need to "touch" the bb with the SG to create a flat spot in order to drill.

Going camping for 4 days. Ill have a think about it...

Simon



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simonl
12th Jul 2017, 10:33 PM
On another note, i did somd more work on the other half of the pulley cone. This one is static and does not move, well its not supposed to but if a situation occurs that shears the plastic keyways (such as an overload if thed spindle force) then the sliding pulley will spin and so will the static pulley.

So anyway i turned dowb the shaft until it was parallel again and made a bush to suite. Slid the bush on and loctited it in place.

I then bored out the pulley until it too was clean. I then machined the shaft with the bush to suite the pulley.

This is where i made several mistakes. I incorrectly made the pulley a sliding fit. Allowing a 1 thou per inch i made it a nicd fit if it was a bearing but it needed to be a lighg press fit. Doh!

So i decided to loctite the sleeve on.... problem solved. Ahh loctite, saving dodgy machining work for years!

It was then that i discoved that the pulley has a roll pin that locates it to the shaft. This had sheared off which is supposed to happen. However i needed this pin location in order to set the correct pulley location on the shaft. No idea now sibce the sleeve haz obscursd the corresponding hole!

I think ill start that again next week. [emoji22]

Simon

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BaronJ
13th Jul 2017, 07:07 AM
Hi Simon,

Sorry can't help with pulley problem :( However drilling the bearing, I used a number 1 centre drill and a 6" inch steel rule ! It worked out Ok.

simonl
16th Jul 2017, 06:13 PM
Ahh, It just occured to me what you used the rule for.... Lay it flat on top of the bearing and press down with the centre drill and align using the rule leveling as a guide?

Sounds like a simple method.

Simon

BaronJ
16th Jul 2017, 07:44 PM
Hi Simon,

Yes it works quite well ! See my last post in "Toggle Clamps" where I show the method in use. Ideally you would clamp the drill vice down to the table, but being lazy I just use a centre drill and the follow it with the drill for the holes size that I need. I you look really close, you can see that the hole has wandered a couple of thou to one side.

A tip with annealed bearing balls, drill a small recess in a couple of pieces of PVC or hard wood, clamp the ball in between them and mark the centre with a 60 degree point in the drill. Use the above method, then drill and tap the marked ball. I use a centre drill because it makes a dimple that you can start a drill into.

Steamwhisperer
20th Jul 2017, 06:58 AM
Ahh, It just occured to me what you used the rule for.... Lay it flat on top of the bearing and press down with the centre drill and align using the rule leveling as a guide?

Sounds like a simple method.

Simon
Hi Simon (and Baron)
wouldn't it be easier to drill the balls in the lathe using a three jaw chuck or am I missing something, kinda' like I did with the balls for the governor.
Just wondering.

Phil

simonl
20th Jul 2017, 10:12 AM
Hi Phil,

No you're not missing a thing! WRT Baron's balls, they were 5/8" so a nice size to work with. If I go with the same approach to fix a part for the mill, I will need to drill 6mm balls. It's starting to get a bit small for a 3 jaw I would have thought, not that I have tried it yet. I am keen to try this method as I have a large quantity of ball bearings... I have a habit of keeping bearings that I remove just in case I need the odd ball. So suffice to say I have a ridiculous quantity of ball bearing balls.
I guess it all comes down to how big your balls are..

On another note, I have a question coming up regarding the mill. It's about the bearing thatsupoorts the top of the on the spindle just before it pokes out where the drawbar is done up. I will take some photos but the bearing that mounts on the shaft and then attaches to the motor housing is mounted is an unusual way and I am wondering if it's original or if it's a fix done by a previous owner.

Photos to come.

Simon

simonl
20th Jul 2017, 02:55 PM
So. Im working on the shaft that mates to the spindle via a knotched or castlated coupling. This coupling meshes with the spindle depending on which speed you have selected (hi or low) its also the shaft that runs the variable speed sliding pulley system. Its supported by an upper and a lower bearing. The upper bearing being a cover plate that screws to the top of the alloy cover that the motor also screws to.

My question for you experienced machine people out there is this;

The top bearing is not simply press fitted to the top of the shaft. The shaft where the bearing seats is undersized and there are 2 half shells that insert on the shaft and then the bearing fits over that. The end of the shaft allows for a circlip that sets the datum for the upper part of the bearing but as you can see in the pics, the bearing is able to located further down the shaft.

Its important thaf the bearing does not move once set on the shaft otherwise the notched coupling can jump and possibly slip causing damage.


You can see from the pics that the two half shells not nog even closely marry up when under the bearing. They also look home made although not well made. They are hard though.

Is is possible this is a workshop fix after the bearing chewed out the shaft?

I have been using an owners manual for a Lagun FTV-2 which has so far been 100% accurate for parts, bolts screws etc. But it does not show this. It shows a turned down end of the shaft and the bearing seats to the shoulder, a circlip on the end.

Your thoughts?

Simon
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170720/c3638f08973ee018deb9323044adb809.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170720/800c809d45ff33f1364706f495d476b3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170720/2e426a70cca3b9e4293ede706fea3a27.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170720/5c7fcf2c80590836d52629451763c617.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170720/cd16c7764d11d671d19fcff2ed521911.jpg

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Michael G
20th Jul 2017, 03:26 PM
I think they are - they don't look 'professional' enough to be a factory fix. Those look like they have been hacked out with a blunt butter knife...

Not sure whether there was a problem and as a result the shaft was machined out (and sleeves added) or whether it has always been like that and the sleeves are a replacement for another set or something similar. Parts books are usually reasonably factual, so if it is not shown it is probably a bodge.

At a place making motors where I once worked there was a circular sort of shim used that was corrugated to allow a snug bearing fit in plastic housings. (Called a 'tolerance ring'). Might be a better option?
368852
I have some if you want one (not sure on size).
Michael

KBs PensNmore
20th Jul 2017, 03:51 PM
Hi Simon, on the first pic, where the "Sleeves" sit it appears to be blue, is that the case? I would say that it appears that the bearing seized up on the shaft and spun.
Kryn

simonl
20th Jul 2017, 05:08 PM
Hi Michael & Kryn,

Michael, I suspect you are correct. The shaft diameter where the split bush and bearing sits is not a "standard" diameter. It's not a nice round number. I forget what it is but it was something like 26.65mm or similar. I remember taking the reading and it did not strike me as a "standard" dimension. I will have to re-measure and get back to you on a more precise reading. One of the reasons why I ask is because if there is no real reason behind this particular setup, I am inclined to machine down that lip at the end and fit another sleave and then machine to accept the original bearing including a shoulder and a circlip groove and call it done.

I like the idea of a tollerance ring! That's my kind of thingy.

Kryn,

That may have been the case in the past but it certainly has not worn 2mm or so which is the thickness of the two shell halfs. The shaft diameter is also fairly constant from one end to the other so whoever has caused it, it has been done deliberately. Also the bearing seems to be in good nic, practically new. This is another strange twist; when I bought this mill, the owner told me that the head needed a major rebuild including the replacement of all the bearings. Funny thing is, all the bearings look new albeit dusty. I still think that someone has gone to repair the mill thinking it only needed new bearings and then ran into trouble or lost interest when they found a few other issues along the way. Not sure...

Simon

littlemick
20th Jul 2017, 05:37 PM
Simon

I have just come across this thread and have the same machine.
Good to see I'm not Robinson Crusoe. 😀

I have been using mine for a few years and have been pretty happy with it. Im away from home during the weeks but generally home on weekends and can take pics if required if it helps through various stages. Only issue i gave with mine is the quill downfeed is missing a cap and some items to engage it. Never really worried about it as most was done manually. I could have used the function a few weeks ago tho..

Following with interest

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BaronJ
20th Jul 2017, 07:30 PM
Hi Simon (and Baron)
wouldn't it be easier to drill the balls in the lathe using a three jaw chuck or am I missing something, kinda' like I did with the balls for the governor.
Just wondering.

Phil


Hi Phil,

I've found that trying to drill small balls, ie 6mm, in the three jaw causes the jaws to mark the ball, it is surprising how soft the bearing ball becomes after annealing. I suppose the right way would be to turn an aluminium soft holder to hold the ball and then grip that in the lathe chuck.

BaronJ
20th Jul 2017, 07:43 PM
Hi Simon, Guys,

I've seen that trick done before when the right size bearing race wasn't available at the time. It is in my opinion a horrible bodge. A tolerance ring is the right thing to use there, but if you have more than a millimetre or so of play then yes, make a press fit collar and turn it down to suit a new bearing. Which in the picture looks as if it has been bashed and bruised somewhat. Its not an expensive bearing anyway ! Some washing machines use that one on the drum spindle.

Not worth spoiling the job for a hapenny worth :)

simonl
20th Jul 2017, 08:49 PM
Hi Baron. Its a standard bearing because it supports the pulley and nothing else. The spindle bearings which are a precision set are further down.

I have had another look at the shaft, and i can report tha t it is in fact not machined parallel. It has a waist while the top and bottom are thicker. Thicker by some tenths of a mm so quite significant. However its symmetrical top and bottom so it must be a deliberate profile as opposed to being caused by wear. Now im really confused.

Hi mick. Im keen for any help you can offer as a fellow Ff-2 owner although it would require you to partially dismantle your machine which is a bit of an ask.

Im thinking i will turn down the end and make a sleeve unless anyone can give me a good reason why i shouldnt....

Simon

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littlemick
20th Jul 2017, 09:11 PM
Is there enough meat to reduce the end and fit the circlip? From the pic it appears the circlip is on the current diameter.
If you can put a smaller circlip in, can you get a bearing with appropriate bore and od to avoid the sleeves altogether?

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simonl
20th Jul 2017, 09:30 PM
Hi Mick, No I don't think that will work. Where the circlip seats is actually a shoulder, not a groove and when the bearing is pressed in, the inner race of the bearing forms the other side of the groove. It's really weird. I'm certainly not an experienced machine rebuilder but it's nothing I have seen before.

To try an give everyone here a better idea, I have screen shotted the head from the owners manual and placed an arrow of the area and bearing in question. This may help some people...

I'm having trouble uploading. Try again later.

Simon

simonl
20th Jul 2017, 10:26 PM
Diagram and picture of parts https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170720/c10ef86436ead575149e2614555f3a02.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170720/eae77b85f4f0249d2fd594631fe72688.jpg

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simonl
20th Jul 2017, 10:44 PM
Heres a closeup of the head diagram.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170720/2704786b2b6e043bdecf2cf5f265dd5b.jpg

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littlemick
20th Jul 2017, 11:01 PM
Simon that is the arrangement I was envisaging as the outcome of what i described. But yours has a step in the shaft under the bearing correct? Have you considered welding it up and turning it back down to size?

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simonl
20th Jul 2017, 11:53 PM
No. Id be too scared to weld in case it warped. Im not a very technical welder. Also im not sure of the material the shaft is made from but its quite hard or tough. Its not ms.

Simon



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BaronJ
21st Jul 2017, 06:23 AM
Hi Simon,

Thanks for the drawing, very interesting and useful !

I reckon that someone has done a poor repair job at sometime. I would seriously consider turning the end down so that it is parallel. Depending upon how much meat is in the shaft at that point, I wouldn't worry to much about the waist, as long as the ends of that section are the same diameter and a reasonable length. Make a collar, press fit or locktite it in place. Turn it down for the new bearing and make a new circlip groove. From the diagram there is no indication of the fitting or parts that you show in you pictures

littlemick
21st Jul 2017, 07:16 AM
The interference bush may not have the depth to drop a circlip groove in there. How much longer can you make the bush Simon? Might be able to step it in over the ens of the shaft to make it thicker and bring the circlip out further. Then put a spacer ring between the bearing and the circlip to take up the extra gap

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simonl
21st Jul 2017, 03:45 PM
Hi all,

Not wanting to make a complete balls up of this job by modifying a part that perhaps needs no modifying, I slept on it last night and studied that drawings and surfed google images (again) to see if either I was missing something or I could find a way to assemble without making any modifications.

Couple of things occured to me; (1) there is a "separating washer that sits between the spindle and the upper pulley shaft. This sets the separation space between the two castlated couplings. This separation distance has a flow on affect and affects where the bearing sits on the end of the shaft, the bearing I have been trying to work out. Needless to say, this separation washer is missing. So before going any further I made a replacement washer. While it's dimensions are not overly critical, making it too thick will mean less depth in the messing of the coupling. It only has about 5mm to play with and the tops have already been partially rounded indicating it may have the potential to jump out under load if the full depth is not engaged. Too thin and it will allow the shaft to sit too low this will affect the operation of the hi/lo speed back gear changing.

So, I made a wahser out of some scrap CI. It ended up being about 7.1mm thick. Ift was a matter of trial and error. The spot is compact and I couldn't get any depth measurement. and it's almost impossible to see if it interferes with the messing by beeing too thick. So I blued one surface and checked for contact and then ran the washer through the SG taking off a couple thou at a time until I got it about right.

First pic shows the shaft and the castilated coupling that couples to a corresponding shaft which is the top of the spindle. The wahser is the part that has the blue tinge just above the toothed cog. The underneath of the pulley cone is at the bottom. Sorry it's sideways, I took the pic with the correct orientation, promise!

368860

This separating washer has now helped me because it sits on top of a bearing which is seated with a circlip top and bottom, so there is now no adjustment. I have a reference to work from.

With regards to that dodgy bearing mount, I decided to try a new approach. I kept the current setup but I pressed the bearing all the way to the shoulder on the shaft. This obviously left a gap between the bearing and the circlip, 3,7mm gap to be a little more precise and it also means that this top bearing will not longer seat hard up into the shoulder of the top bearing cover/retainer. Looking at the top bearing cover, it is very deep and even if the bearing does not seat all the way, the outer race is still fully inserted in this cover, so I made another washer. I take some measurements and come up with a wahser that's about 4mm thick and seat it between the top bearing and the top bearing cover.

This bearing also needs to be fine tuned. Too thick and the bearing retainer will not screw down onto the top housing. Too thin and it will allow endplace and (potential) upwards movement of the shaft. Remember the shaft can no longer move down is it's resting on the separating washer I showed earlier.

I was a matter of taking some measurements with feeler gauges and then skimming off a little more on the surface grinder, re-measure and repeat until I was happy with the fit. Pic1 is the washer, pic 2 is the same washer sitting in the bottom (actually the top) of the bearing cover pic3 is the same bearing cover screwed to the top motor housing and I'm testing the fit.

368862368861 368863

With everything bolted down snuggly, everthing seems to rotate nice and look good. I'm calling that done!

On a side note, may I say that gess I'm really dumb sometimes. I machine rebuilder I certainly am not. Phil, if you are reading this.... Your job is incredibly safe buddy! The reason I say this is because I have a box of parts that came with this mill (parts are getting less and less thank goodness) and right at the bottom of this box cover in crud are these shims

368864

Yes, they go under the cover to create the required clearance for the bearing. There was still about 3mm of endplay which I took care of and these shims don't explain that but these shims ultimately do what I did with the feeler gauges and the surface grinder. Oh well, I guess the manufacturer would rather assemble and then take up any tollerances with shims rather than disasseble and fine tune a washer on a SG.

Here are the parts parially assembled, you can see the separating washer on the shaft. Stupid photo uploader put my pics on the side again.

368865368866

Final assembly will now be waiting on me sanding, painting, sanding and more painting of the top motor housing which is in a state of bondo and primer...

Thanks everyone for their support and suggestions so far. Hopefully it won't be long before I'm in a position to fire it up and test. I'll be nervous but running it on VFD means I can start from 5hz....

Simon

simonl
22nd Jul 2017, 08:47 AM
Well after alot of sanding and a coat of etch primer, i have painted the first coat of "machinery grey" on the top cover.

Its not a showroom job but it looks neat and practical enough for a machine of its age and condition..

Simonhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170721/50c4eda42cfb4735f935ab5945773f2e.jpg

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shedhappens
22nd Jul 2017, 12:11 PM
G/day Simon, nice project and looks as tho coming along well :2tsup:

"castilated coupling" is usually called a dog clutch.

cheers, shed

simonl
22nd Jul 2017, 03:10 PM
Cheers, Thanks. A dog clutch it is from now on!

Simon

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simonl
23rd Jul 2017, 02:00 PM
Did a couple more things today. Cleaned and de-rusted the 4 pulley cones and assembled for the last time (hopefully). Also made a small part that attaches the variable speed selector chain to the pulley lever.

I also compressed the motor pulley spring to force open the two pulley halves on the motor side. This can be done with either some m5 all thread or a few m5 bolts. The idea is by doing this and then doing the same with the pulley cones on the spindle side, it allows the motor and pulleys to be slid over the cv belt during final assembly.

There is a small coved plate that allows access to the bolts so that they can be removed after assembly, allowing the spring tension to find its natural position.

So right now im basically waiting on paint to dry. Which in this weather is frustrating. We have a heated drying room at work. Guess whats going to go in there on my night shift...


Pic1 is the back gear installed with the cogged belt (used for low speed setting)
You can also see the brake lining for the spindle brake.

Pic2 is the motor pulley and spring in compressed state using 2xm5 bolts.

Pic3 shows the clearence it creates for the belt between the two pulley halves. In operation the spring would be in this state at the slowest speed setting. You then choose the high speed setting on the front pulleys (also wide open) this creates an unnatural state and gives slack for the belt.

Pic4 for demonstration purposes showing the speed selector chain attached to the pulley lever. These are normally attached to the housing which is being painted...

Simon

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170723/5618e42030a4e920b6aa2690b55a00c6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170723/e491a2ae49fb07cc26df6cefdd1face6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170723/aac6a8a2a479620d29a9c113669c4085.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170723/0428a42f9a98bb686929e94703270981.jpg

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simonl
24th Jul 2017, 05:05 PM
Spent some more time on the mill today. More just frigging around than anything. I installed the motor cover and spinddle pulleys. I then spent half a day trying/attempting to put the motor and pulleys in place with no success. It's a very tight squeeze, the opening flange where the motor seats is only a little bigger than the actual pulley, the slack in the belt is not luxurious by any stretch of the imagination so wrestling with a 20Kg motor and trying to slip the belt over the bottom pulley cone before pushing the motor all the way home is an artform I am yet to master!

A google search turns up many posts on several forums of people struggling to do the same thing. Although they ultimately succeed!

In despiration I turned to the owners manual. While it does not cover installation, I talks about motor removal. They suggest removing the bolt that holds the pulley and then removing the motor and intially leaving the pulley cones in place.

I've missed my window of oppotunity time wise to try that today but will attack it with renewed enthusiasm in a couple of days with some more pics just in case there is some poor soul out there needing to do a simlar exercise in the future.

Simon

simonl
24th Jul 2017, 11:21 PM
OK. I couldn't let this beat me before I start my working week so I had another look. I removed the pulley from the motor as per the instruction manual. Turns out it was a good idea in more ways than one as the cap screw that retains the pulley to the motor was loose!

In pic 1 you can see the hole where the motor bolt to. The belt inside waiting to be mated to the motor pulley. As you can see, not much room in there. You need midwives hands to get anywhere near it with the pulley in there.

368917

Next pic shows an attempt and sliding the pulley (minus the motor) onto the belt.... Actually, the pulley is upside down but the pic was demonstration purposes to show the close fit of the arrangement. Even without the motor, that pulley was never going in there like that!

368918

What I do next is to dis-assemble the motor cover (again) and then place the pulley inside the cover before sliding the cover over the rest of the running parts attached to the mill.

Pic 3 gives you some idea although that pulley needed to be inside the cover first..

368919

So, after some more mucking around and a bit more cursing and some more scratches on my freshly painted cover, I get to this stage...

368920

The motor pulley inside and awaiting the motor. That's it for now. I'll certainly know how to do it in a 10th of the time next time!

Edit: got no idea why the last two pics are in this lot...

Simon

simonl
28th Jul 2017, 02:52 PM
Last few days i have drawn my attention to the motor. Its a 3ph 3hp job and seems to weigh a tonne. Actually its about 18kg but its bloody heavy when your tryjng to fit it on top of a mill!

As a kind gesture, the motor has the star point in the junction box so for once i dont have to rewire a motor for VFD!

I sat it on top of the mill in readiness when i realised it looks pretty crap next to the fresh painted housing so i decided to paint the motot too.

Pic1 is the junction box as set up for standard 3 phase (as in at a factory)

Pic2 after a paint job and reconfigured to delta goodrem configuration.

I also connected the speed selector and chain to the spindle pulley. Turning the handle either shortens or lengthens the chain allowing the pulley cones to separate and change the effective pulley ratios. The spring loaded pulley cones on the motor just react accordingly, so when one pulley opens, the other one closes which keeps the same tension on the belt.

Attaching the chain ferrule thing tk the cap bolt was a bit fidly but nowhere near as fidly as fitting the motor and belt. A piece of string held it in place while i looselt bolted on the front plate. I then held the ferrule with pointy nose pliars while feeling through the allen key until i made contact and the thread took up.

Pic3 shows the speed selector chain through the small inspection hole. There is also a smaller hole in the top to access the cap screw.

There are now two levels of adjustment to be made. The adjustment on the screw in depth of that ferrule and the front circular disc with rpm indication on it.

The handwheel on the rhs that winds the chain in and out has a finite number of turns as the worm wheel inside has a limiting pin. The cap screw needs to be adjusted to ensure you get full movement of the pulley cone from closed to open. Otherwise you will not get the full rpm range. Secondly, after the cap screw length is correct, the front dome nut is loosened and the rpm disc can be rotated to indicate correct rpm.

Was planning to have that already done but my cheapie optical tacho needs a new 9v battery.

I have since powered up the motor (sounds great) and run the mill across the rpm range and im pretty happy. Even at 4000 rpm it sound nicer than my geared head mill at half the speed.

Ill make some adjustments and calibrate the rpm indicator dial and call it a day. Quit while im ahead!

Next little jobbie will be to turn my attention to the X power feed. Its a servo products type 90 feed. It does not work... yet. I had searched the www high and low to indentify this feed but nothing came up. As a last ditch effort i emailed a company in the US that sells and services servo products.

They were extremely helpful. They identified the model (type 90) and supplied me with a parts diagram AND a circuit diagram. They told me that they are a great power feed made some 30 years ago. No longer made and parts are scarce but they still have some parts. They told me its a pitty im not in the US because they can rebuild it for me back to almost new for about $US220

Thanks to their help im confident of repairing it. For a reasonable price..

Simonhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170728/2b87af810dd2ed23a565c25f2f0b0de7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170728/96c80c64ae0a96bcbd67d250d0be4b08.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170728/b48a3c62f043e74a15a85b8b758b4709.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170728/3e4864bfeb4a5ecf6df9f359dac3146f.jpg

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simonl
29th Jul 2017, 10:36 PM
OK. I need to help.

I have since tested the variable speed drive. It does not achieve the full speed range, being approx. 60 - 3750 rpm. It max's out at about 2700 rpm. I don't think its an adjustment issue as the spindle pulley cone definately cannot separate any further as it nearly touches the top of the motor cover. I'm wondering if the belt is the wrong size, pitch or angle. I have done several searches on the net to try find the correct belt but it has been a bit hit/miss.

Here is what I know;

The belt on the mill at present is a 37x10x900.
The correct belt according to the manual is called a P.I.V. H3 900

I have read at least one post on another forum stating that the belt should be a 30x10x900. When I bought the mill, the seller said he bought another belt which was supplied with the box of parts. I'm wondering if he bought the wrong belt. If in deed it should be 30mm wide and not 37mm then this extra width may limit the speed range.

Anyone have any idea or suggestions?

Cheers,

Simon

BaronJ
30th Jul 2017, 06:11 PM
Hi Simon,

Following along with interest :)

Too wide a belt will reduce the maximum speed that you can obtain with this type of variable speed mechanism. I recall that one of the washing machine manufactures had a problem with belts and spin speeds. I think that they got supplied with belts that were too wide and the machines didn't spin fast enough.

simonl
30th Jul 2017, 10:32 PM
Thanks Baron.

Simon

simonl
1st Aug 2017, 06:54 PM
over the last couple of days I have been scratching my head about the reduced speed range of the mill (mind you it's already better than my current mill but I want it to be running correctly) I have shot off several emails to suppliers in the US including Lagun who made the machine, in 1977 as it turns out.

They have supplied me with a part number but are not forth coming with actual belt dimensions. They obviously want me to buy their belt for 3 times the price! I'm still awaiting a couple of replies but I suspect the belt is in fact the correct width but not quite long enough. A belt that is too short will run fin inside the rpm envelope but will chop off or truncate both the max and min RPM since the belt does not have the length to run all the way to the end or full diameter of the pulley as either end of the RPM range. This is in fact what is happening. The minimum rpm achieved is about 65 rpm while the max achieved is about 2750 rpm. The specs of the machine indicate it should be doing about 48 - 3750 rpm. That means it's truncating it's min and max rpm by 27%. Too much of a coincidence to me.

Simon

Michael G
1st Aug 2017, 07:00 PM
Simon, have you tried talking to specialist belt suppliers like Rydel about the belt, what the number means and what you have?
They may have a part number decoder that will resolve the issue for you.

Wouldn't you have the same issue if the belt were too wide? The extra height of the belt would stop the pulleys being able to close right up at either end.

Michael

simonl
1st Aug 2017, 08:04 PM
Hi Michael,

Yep. I think you are correct but I'm still trying to get my head around it. As in the different consequences of a too wide belt as opposed to a too short belt.

The person at Lagun said that they got Gates (as in the belt people) to make a special belt for their needs. So I rang Gates direct here in Aus and gave them the Lagun belt part No. but he couldn't help either. I'm thinking if the actual maker of the belt can't help then what hope do I have with another supplier.

Having said that, I found another supplier in the US who specifically mention a belt part number for the mill I own. Once again it's not the usual belt nomeclature where the belt number includes the with, length, angle etc. It's their own special part number. Anyway, at US$60 it's about 1/2 the peice of Lagun so I may end up getting one from them. I shot them an email to find out more about the belt size, last thing I want is to order this mystery belt only to find it's the same size as the one I have now!

Simon

simonl
1st Aug 2017, 08:37 PM
Michael,

I just had a bit of a think and also recalled how the belt sat on the pulleys when I was installing it. I do now remember that the pulleys did in fact open far enough apart to allow the belt to sit up against the 40mm shaft. If you recall, I had both pulleys fully apart when installing the belt, to allow max. belt room. So, looking the situation now, it can only be caused by a belt that is too small.

I think....

Simon

simonl
2nd Aug 2017, 10:39 AM
Finally got some further info. Prior to 1994 Lagun used a belt 37.3" long and 1-1/2" inches wide. That's approx. 947mm long and 38mm high. After 1994 it changed to the belt I currently have which is 10x30x900. As I mentioned earlier, my mill was made in 1977 so the belt is too short by about 47mm. The standard belt to fit my machine is a 2322V373 which is a very handy number to know.
I should be able to source that belt locally.

Simon

simonl
2nd Aug 2017, 08:28 PM
Rang several industrial supplies today armed with my new belt number, eager in anticipation for a new belt. However, both places rang back after several hours telling me that a belt that size was not available in Aus and that their records only showed belts that size from OS! ?

So, I went on ebay and bought one for AU$40 from the US. I actually wanted to buy local but no so. :no:

Simon

Machtool
10th Aug 2017, 06:56 PM
Rang several industrial supplies today armed with my new belt number, eager in anticipation for a new belt.
Sorry I missed that. I would have suggested F & D O'Conner in Thomastown. Variable Speed Belts - F & D O'Connor Pty Ltd (http://www.fdoconnor.com.au/en_variable-speed-belts,175.html)

They get into weird / harder to find stuff.

Having said that, if you got out of it for $40 bucks, you would be hard pressed to find it for that price here. On the bright side, the little Aussie battler dollar is doing a bit better than its done in a while.

Regards Phil.

BaronJ
10th Aug 2017, 07:43 PM
Hi Phil,



On the bright side, the little Aussie battler dollar is doing a bit better than its done in a while.


That's more that can be said for the UK pound ! It's around 1.10 Euro at the moment, this time last year we were getting 1.40 Euro to the £. Since the country decided "Brexit" it has become very much more expensive just to live, not just in the UK but in Europe generally. The government insists that inflation is only around 2.5%, realistically 20% is closer.

simonl
10th Aug 2017, 07:54 PM
Thanks Phil!

Actually, I may need that contact in Thomastown. Current state of play is that the ebay seller says that the belt has been delivered (I nominated my shipto address in the US) and shipto say they have not received it! I probably got it delivered direct to me but I'm waiting on a couple of other smaller items to be delivered to shipto and figured I would get them bundled together. I've lodged a customer ticket request so they are now "investigating"

Next couple of days will see what happens.

Simon

Machtool
11th Aug 2017, 12:05 PM
Actually, I may need that contact in Thomastown. There's a link to them in my post #84 above. End of first sentence.

Let me know if you end up going that way, and they can get it. There only 5 minutes from me. Wouldn't be a problem to pick it up and on-post it.

Regards Phil.

simonl
13th Aug 2017, 07:19 PM
Thanks Phil. Turns out they found my package in the end.

Well after some trial and error i got the power drive working. Its a Servo Products type 90 power drive. Made in the US about 30 years ago. While they are no longer made, some parts are still available. A helpful supplier of parts in the US emailed me a parts diagram and circuit diagram. These were invaluable in trooble shooting the faulty components on the circuit board.

In the end, i replaced two SCR (stock items at Jaycar) the 10K speed potetiometer and a resistor. The POT is longer than standard at 75mm and has a rating of 5w meaning the $2 jaycar version is not suitable however i used a jaycar POT in order to get it working before committjng to buyjng the correct parts in the US.

Since im convinced it can be refurbushed, i ordered about US $35 in parts including new brushes, brush holders and caps, a new speed selector knob and a plastic bottom cover which was missing.

There are also 3 small bearings which i will replace too. This should bring it back to near new including a nice new paint job.

Here are the parts waiting assembly. The liitle thing is quite intricate and ill need to hold my tongue right to re-assemble this thing!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170813/2d2d5f20e420550cba91d9f9b51ca65c.jpg

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simonl
17th Nov 2017, 11:49 AM
Hi there,

Been working bit by bit on this mill.

One thing that has me stumped, can anyone tell me the purpose of this arbor that it came with? 371168

PS. ignor the photo of the mill, it's sideways and I now cannot remove it. Sorry.

Cheers,

Simon

Neil317
17th Nov 2017, 08:18 PM
Maybe Sandvik Capto?
https://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-gb/products/coromant_capto

snapatap
18th Nov 2017, 07:14 AM
that's a Capto arbor. The are a pretty rigid connection, contacts on both the face and the taper. The arbor you have would be for modular tooling, they also use that connection in the spindle of some machining centers, mainly high end millturn machines. I think its going to be pretty useless to you the tooling is pretty expensive.

simonl
18th Nov 2017, 07:18 AM
Thanks Neil and Snapa.

Think you are correct and yes its pretty much useless to me unless i can modifh it to take another tool.

Thanks for your replies.

Simon

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Michael G
18th Nov 2017, 08:12 AM
I still have the 40 taper QC tooling if you want QC...
http://metalworkforums.com/f223/t201105-surplus-items

Michael

simonl
19th Nov 2017, 06:50 PM
Thanks Michael. I will keep that in mind.

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simonl
12th Jun 2018, 08:26 AM
Hi all,

Been doing a little bit here and there on the mill. One thing that had been troubling me a bit was that fact that when I filled the oil cup (that lives on the side of the head) with oil, it took quite a lot of oil for it to finally drip through the spindle bearings and when it did, the oil was not the cleanest.

I ignored this for some time but then when I looked at the price of replacement spindle bearings I got a little concerned. I figure the small amount of effort required to remove the spindle and clean up any crap on the bearings would be time well spent.

So, I have taken the spindle out. It has a very similar setup to a Bridgeport and presented no problem getting it out. So the bearing setup is two precision bearings preloaded with spacers on the inner and out race and a long spacer snugged up with a nut.

This setup means that access to these bearings for cleaning is very limited without removal. Question is, can precision bearings that are pre-fit on a shaft be removed without damage? Usually these bearings are only removed for replacement and so damage is not usually an issue.

BTW, the bearings seem pretty good. Certainly the spindle makes a lovely noise when run.

I post a pick from my phone...

Simon

simonl
12th Jun 2018, 08:28 AM
Spindle assemblyhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180611/12f62f7889df7902bd476ca3bcfede18.jpg

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simonl
12th Jun 2018, 08:17 PM
Well against my better judgement i disassembled to spindle.

I mostly went to plan although i did have an "oh crap" moment when the lower precision FAFNIR bearing outer race decided to part company with the inner race and shoot balls everywhere.

I really thought id done my dash with that bearing but it turned out that they come apart pretty easily. So i took both apart to inspect the races. They look ok.

I also took the time to inspect the iso40 taper for wear/damage.

Also i measured the runout of the spindle and marked it. The spindle bearings have a 2um runout mark on the inner and outer race so placing the high part of the inner 180 degrees to the high spot on the spindle should reduce the overall runout from a measured 6um to hopefully 4um.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180612/0857e32de40edaf1d7d9acbf67bf1ba1.jpg

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shedhappens
12th Jun 2018, 08:27 PM
G/day simon, I have pulled the head on my mill to a zillion pieces also.
I also wasn't going to disassemble my spindle and when I read your post above I didn't want to suggest one way or the other, as you know things can go south real quick.
After seeing your post I have decided not to be a pussy and do my brgs also, thank you. (I think)

cheers, shed

simonl
12th Jun 2018, 08:46 PM
Hi Shed. One thing always leads to another with me. Originally i was just going to remove the spindle and leave it complete and just flush the bearings. However once i got it out i realised that to get it truely clean so as to preserve the bearings and remove all crud, it had to be completely pulled apart.

I have read on other forums that they flhshed them with solvent or hydraulic oil until clean but when you think how clean and cautious you need to be when installing new bearings ie white gloves etc. Its hard to think you can get them that clean again.

Good luck. Post some pics. Im keen to see how different mills have their spindles set up.

PS if yours goes pear shaped then im denying all responsibility!

Simon

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simonl
13th Jun 2018, 02:01 PM
Spindle assembly is now cleaned and re-assembled.

In an effort to slip the bearings on easier i put the spindle in the freezer and put the bearings in my food hydrater set to 70 degrees.

Ive done this before with the Gamett tapered roller bearings in the SG spindle but used the oven. I was concerned about too much heat because the bearjngs have a phenolic retainer and wasnt sure how much hsat they could take. The SG bearings i heated to about 100 dgrees and they literally fell on the shaft. However seems like 70 degrees is nof quite enough as they were still a press fit. Oh well.


I also gave the quill a clean and inspection, making sure the wick from the cup oiler directs the oil in the right spot.

I guess i wont really know if ive done a good job until i fire it up and listen. Im also keen to measure the runout of the taper in the spindle.

Just waiting for some engineering felt to arrive so i can replace the dirty old felt disc that sits at the top.

Until then the spindle stays wrapped in glad wrap.

Simon
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180613/c79a6f05b14ee2e4de8793328cd0551d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180613/b7ed41b1ac989924a89ec36599a36341.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180613/7f8778b810af4a4f51b75a30bf6645ea.jpg

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