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thomasnowsun
24th Feb 2017, 12:26 AM
Hi everyone,

I make chocolate from bean to bar and I would like to make my own cocoa butter press.
I have the plan but I need someone to make a custom metal part which would look like a very large piston. I tried to contact some machinist but without success. Is it because It is not what they do? Who would I need to contact?

366819366820366821
1-The first picture would be the main body of the press which is easy to find
2-the second picture is the whole press, what I need to be made is the piston and the base
3-You can see better the exact piece I need, do you know what kind of speciality worker I need to contact to have this custom made?

Thank you very much in advance for your help

Thomas

KBs PensNmore
24th Feb 2017, 01:34 AM
Hi and welcome to the forum. When you say your location is London, is that London UK????
If it is UK, I suggest you contact BaronJ (http://metalworkforums.com/members/89944-baronj), as he's in the UK and bit of a whizz at doing stuff like that. To find him in the members list, click on Community on the title bar I suppose it's called, then Member list, to find his name, click on " B", and scroll down the list till you find his name, click on it, his details will come up and then in the column on the left will be some details, click on "Send Private Message". A new page will pen up where you type out the details you want to send. Tell him to blame me for this.
Regards
Kryn

Michael G
24th Feb 2017, 06:47 AM
I suspect that one reason you can't get machinists interested is that one off parts are a pain because they can cost quite a bit to make and individuals new to machining suffer price shock so machinists end up quoting for no result all the time.
Stainless steel is also relatively expensive, which does not help price wise.
Happy to help but I think Baron is closer.

Michael

BaronJ
25th Feb 2017, 02:13 AM
Thanks Guys, I knew I would get the blame at some point :D:D:D.

Hi Thomas,

I assume from your picture that it is the tube and piston that you are after having made. Drop me a PM along with the details of what you want and I will have a look & see.

thomasnowsun
27th Feb 2017, 11:09 AM
Hi thanks for you reply and for the tip.

thomasnowsun
27th Feb 2017, 11:10 AM
I posted the drawing of the pieces I need, and another picture which detail the link between the tube and the base with the filter.
366881366883366882366884
Sorry for the drawing, I never really did that before.

BaronJ
28th Feb 2017, 02:35 AM
Hi Thomas,

I hope that you are a wealthy man ! 25 cm (9 inch ) diameter thick wall food grade stainless steel tube is going to be expensive !!! I'll get a price for it. However it might be cheaper to have its parts fabricated, even so it is still not going to be cheap. Some 20,000 psi stainless hose fittings came out at over £600 each plus VAT.

I'll get back to you on this.

BaronJ
1st Mar 2017, 10:42 PM
Hi Thomas, Guys,

It seems that there is no thick wall stainless steel tube available anywhere near the size (9" inches diameter) that you have specified on your drawing, and certainly nothing with a 1" thick wall. I can get a slice cut from a 250 mm diameter billet, but that would have to be machined to size and would incur considerable waste.

It is now clear to me why you cannot get an engineering shop to entertain your project. My advice would be to examine what standard material sizes are available and alter your design to suit. I may be prudent to consider looking at specialist food machinery manufactures that already make the equipment you are after.

I'm sorry if this comes across negatively, it seems that the UK has lost a lot of its ability to innovate. Material suppliers seem to only want to supply large quantities from minimal stocks, charged at premium prices.

Oldneweng
2nd Mar 2017, 12:05 AM
I wondered whether it would be better to make it out of steel and fit a liner. It may be possible to make a liner out of a plastic, like the piston.

Dean

thomasnowsun
2nd Mar 2017, 02:06 AM
Hi BaronJ,

I can't thank you enough for the time you took to help me figure out this issue. It is indeed sad to hear this bad news, I thought this project would been quite simple to make with the right skills and the right material. I didn't expect the stainless steel to be so expensive either. I guess, as you said I would be better off trying to adapt a piece of equipment to my intended purpose.

Thanks again BaronJ

Michael G
2nd Mar 2017, 07:00 AM
That wall thickness is quite hefty and probably does not need to be that thick. A better approach may be to find some thick walled stainless pipe (you will probably be able to find some with a wall of 1/4" or near that relatively easily) and design the other parts to fit (weld a flange on and so on). 6" (152.4mm) or 150mm bore pipe should be available.

Michael

BaronJ
2nd Mar 2017, 07:24 AM
Hi Guys,

Dean,
The issue with steel is that as far as I am aware, it wouldn't be allowed in a food processing environment, chocolate is considered food, due to possible contamination issues. Having said that I do know of at least one industrial mixer where cast iron scraper blades have been used and the magnetic plug had to be cleaned and replaced daily, otherwise the downstream metal detector would cause an alarm condition then shut the system down. A rolled drum with a plastic liner would probably be a possible solution, since food grade plastics are common.

Thomas,
It is very difficult to develop a machine without knowing what materials are available to you. I didn't expect to find that material of a suitable size for your project wouldn't be available. Indeed I knew that food grade stainless steel was expensive, but not that suppliers would insist on minimum quantities, i.e. 6 metre lengths. The one supplier that said they would supply me with cut lengths, admitted that it would be from a short piece that they had in stock and they wouldn't normally cut material.
They also said that they would Email me with a material specification and a price. I have yet to hear from them. Should I do so I will PM you.

NOTES:
From the enquiries made and the several companies spoken to, non were prepared to offer advice or recommend anybody else that might be able to assist. I got the distinct impression that the stainless steel market was controlled by a very few suppliers and that most companies were simply middle men or stockholders for the manufacturer, the bulk of which were foreign.

Sadly I remember the days when you could make a phone call and go, usually to Sheffield (UK) and collect what you needed for a job, from tools to machinery to supplies ! Not any more.

Oldneweng
2nd Mar 2017, 09:36 AM
Hi Guys,

Dean,

A rolled drum with a plastic liner would probably be a possible solution, since food grade plastics are common.




I wrote, "make it out of steel and fit a liner." I don't see the difference.

Dean

DSEL74
2nd Mar 2017, 09:58 AM
Dean, As the chocolate spills over and is collected in the bowl. I assume they reuse the collected chocolate so the outside also need to meet food standard. Just my guess.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Oldneweng
2nd Mar 2017, 02:12 PM
Dean, As the chocolate spills over and is collected in the bowl. I assume they reuse the collected chocolate so the outside also need to meet food standard. Just my guess.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"chocolate spills over"

Where? From the picture it appears the cocoa butter is pressed out the bottom just like any food press of this design.

The idea is to use food grade plastics to seal the steel cylinder wherever needed.

My query was how is is Barons suggestion any different to mine?

Dean

BaronJ
2nd Mar 2017, 03:52 PM
I wrote, "make it out of steel and fit a liner." I don't see the difference.

Dean


Hi Dean,

I was thinking stainless steel sheet roll formed to create a cylinder then edge welded to suit a standard liner. Then as you say use a suitable plastic for the piston. I would need to work out the pressure involved to determine the required steel wall thickness.

Re-reading your original post I assumed you meant steel as in mild steel. I think that DSEL74 thought the same.

Jekyll and Hyde
2nd Mar 2017, 05:09 PM
How much tonnage is actually used in this operation? Is it possible to make the entire thing out of a high grade plastic?

Or alternatively, how volume is needed to be processed at once, can it be scaled down to say a quarter of the bore size, to make use of more readily available stainless? If more volume is required, simply make it double barreled - or 4 barrels, whatever works.

Oldneweng
2nd Mar 2017, 09:26 PM
Hi Dean,

I was thinking stainless steel sheet roll formed to create a cylinder then edge welded to suit a standard liner. Then as you say use a suitable plastic for the piston. I would need to work out the pressure involved to determine the required steel wall thickness.

Re-reading your original post I assumed you meant steel as in mild steel. I think that DSEL74 thought the same.

I did mean mild steel, but with a liner etc to cover it. It would even be possible to fit a stainless tube to the inside at least. They are available in many sizes. I would have some here. To cover the outside it would not need to have a tight fit so a stainless tube made to suit and rings at top and bottom to seal it all in. The inside tube would be a close fit. I was just throwing a suggestion out, but there, now I have designed it for you. :rolleyes: There's lots of food equipment around made of steel with SS in the important places.

Dean

BaronJ
3rd Mar 2017, 01:25 AM
Hello Dean,

I agree with your comments about fabrication, and I think that it would be the sensible way to go. The other issue is actually getting hold of the size of tube that Thomas specified. I know where I can get stainless steel plate, laser cut to size, but I've not been able to find anybody that would have the capability to roll 8 mm thick, or even 6 mm for that matter. Then there is the issue of getting it welded and machined to remove the weld crown on the inside.

Looking at Thomas's pictures I would guess that his press is probably 10 or 15 tons and the press tube that he shows is about 100 mm (4" inches) diameter.

Oldneweng
3rd Mar 2017, 10:48 AM
316 SS tube is available in 4" (100mm). It is just a matter of finding some. Plenty of it in wineries etc.

Dean

BaronJ
4th Mar 2017, 08:40 AM
316 SS tube is available in 4" (100mm). It is just a matter of finding some. Plenty of it in wineries etc.

Dean

I agree, but in Thomas's drawing he specified 9" inch diameter 1" inch wall thickness. The only way to get that would be to machine from solid. I think that he could easily get away with a rolled and welded seam with 6 mm wall thickness at that diameter. The welded seam would be the weakness with respect to the burst pressure.

Michael G
4th Mar 2017, 09:28 AM
15t on a 150mm diameter piston is 8.5MPa - without doing a whole raft of calculations, the wall thickness quoted is probably in excess of what it needs to be.

Michael

Oldneweng
4th Mar 2017, 11:24 AM
I agree, but in Thomas's drawing he specified 9" inch diameter 1" inch wall thickness. The only way to get that would be to machine from solid. I think that he could easily get away with a rolled and welded seam with 6 mm wall thickness at that diameter. The welded seam would be the weakness with respect to the burst pressure.

9" would be harder to find although still available. Not quite sure what 9" inch is tho. 9 inch square? :rolleyes:


Hello Dean,

Looking at Thomas's pictures I would guess that his press is probably 10 or 15 tons and the press tube that he shows is about 100 mm (4" inches) diameter.

Is this 9" diameter a new development then? It is looking tough. I might have some, but you (Thomas) might not like the postage.

Dean

Oldneweng
4th Mar 2017, 02:18 PM
Its 8" actually. About 2mm wall thickness.

Dean

BaronJ
5th Mar 2017, 03:32 AM
Hi Guys,

I've just had another look at the sketch that Thomas did. I thought for a while that I was getting confused by cm and mm.
Re-reading my posts, I mistakenly said 9 inches instead of 8". My bad on that one.

Ignoring the flange he has written "OD 19 cm" and "15 cm for the ID" I make that 7.48 inches and 5.9 inches. That leaves 20mm wall thickness. He also gave 25 cm for the flange and base plate. I can get 10" inches slices cut from a billet.

This needs more investigation. If I can find someone to roll 6 mm SS plate I'm sure that I can find someone to seam weld it.

jhovel
5th Mar 2017, 04:06 PM
Just a comment about Thomas' drawings:
I have a sneaking suspicion he guessed the dimensions, rather than measuring. We know that the average 10 or 15ton jack is usually less than 100mm OD. The cylinder below the jack looks a lot closer to 90mm OD to me in the photo. It also looks no more than than 100 or 120mm high to me (I'm judging relative dimensions to the spoon in the last photo and the girl's had in the first one), with a wall thickness of about 6 or 8mm.
Thomas, get hold of one and amend your drawing. I think in the actual size it will be a lot less pricey and complex to make.
If you thought you could just have a bigger one made while you are at it, you may be surprised at how expensive the require larger press is!
The press forces are measured in lbs per square inch or kilo pascals on the piston surface.
If a 90mm ID press cylinder gets 10000kg force from a 10t press, then a 150mm cylinder needs an almost 80ton press! to get the same force on the cocoa beans...... (someone can check my calculations, please).

jhovel
6th Mar 2017, 05:55 PM
Hi Thomas,
I think I came across the ideal polyethylene fitting for your project - if you are prepared to go to a plastic construction for the press cylinger.
It was on the shelf at my local irrigation supplier (where I had to get some fitting to repair a leak here). I recognised it immediately as part of your project :)
Now, they are made in Switzerland, so it wouldn't make sense for me to send it to you....
The wall thickness of the fitting is around 12mm and it 'butresses' out to maybe 18mm near the flange. The bore os either 90 or 100mm (didn;t have anything to measure on me, but more likely 100mm). The flange is maybe 20mm thick.
Have a look at their website or contact them for exact dimensions, if you can;t find it locally.
Talk to Baron about the other bits.
367001

QC Inspector
9th Mar 2017, 04:39 AM
Would a press like this (http://pleasanthillgrain.com/tabletop-fruit-press-1-25-gallon) do the job?
Same (https://www.home-brew-hopshop.co.uk/fruit-presses-and-juice-extraction/cross-beam-table-press-stainless-steel-litre-p-2307.html) thing in England.

Another option is to get a ready made one from China (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Small-scale-home-use-cocoa-butter_60460781112.html) through Alibaba. This one was from a quick search so a more refined search might result in better ones.

Pete

In preview the links aren't easy to see. Not a lot of contrast. Run your curser over the sentences and they show.