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morrisman
20th Jan 2017, 08:20 PM
I hope to be doing some work on this early WW2 era Morris truck project soon. A long term thing . I have accumulated many parts and wrecks over the years . I have 6 motors .

A problem I have with the engine is the water jacket side cover on the engine block. The cover is held on with many 1/4" bolts ( maybe 6mm ) . The bolts have become somewhat fragile after 70 years and they break off easily . It may be a metric 6mm thread - Morris engines used some metric threads because William Morris purchased the French Hotchkiss factory which was making munitions during WW1 - he inherited all of the metric tooling .

I am thinking of what are the options ? Heating is possible but it may damage the cover itself .

Any advice appreciated .

I would also like to remove the head studs, another nightmare job .

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KBs PensNmore
21st Jan 2017, 12:37 AM
Do you have access to a TIG welder? If so, try heating the bolts with the TIG, shouldn't effect the water jacket cover. If you can get the bolts hot enough, they should shrink enough to be able to loosen the bolts. If any are sheared off, hopefully enough bolt is showing to be able to weld a nut to, again with the TIG, heating should crack them lose also.
Hope this helps.
Kryn

Michael G
21st Jan 2017, 06:48 AM
Don't overlook the ezy-out either as they can be surprisingly effective in some situations. The head studs should be helped with the application of some penetrating oil. The water jacket bolts will not be as obliging but at the same time I don't see any rust other than normal atmospheric stuff on the parts so they may surprise you and come out relatively easily (then again, they may surprise me and be an absolute pig as well)

Michael

morrisman
21st Jan 2017, 10:38 AM
OK good tips

The cover may have to be sacrificed if it comes to that. I could possibly make a new cover from brass sheet .

I do have a proper stud puller tool . If I heat the head studs above the block surface, the heat will travel down in to the stud . I am rather worried about heating the cast block in small areas because expansion fractures can happen .

BTW this is a page from my old web site . Geocities closed it down but somebody saved it ! The trucks are what I have .

CS8page (http://www.reocities.com/vk3cz/CS8page.html)

KBs PensNmore
21st Jan 2017, 09:56 PM
Nice article on the CS8 Mike, thanks for that, found it interesting reading.
Kryn

morrisman
22nd Jan 2017, 11:07 AM
I tried heating and much lubricant but no luck. The side cover bolt heads just broke off . The metal in the old bolts is like plasticine it just bends and fractures so easily . Its now the ezy out method . BTW the bolt threads measure up as 5.85mm OD - there are little copper washers behind the bolt head , a sealing method I guess .

The other possible fix is to drill out and tap to the next size up which would be 5/16" or 8mm . There is enough room to do this and I feel it would be an easier fix method.

KBs PensNmore
22nd Jan 2017, 12:22 PM
Mike, I found this trick works well. To drill the centre out for broken studs/bolts, get a bit of scrap metal drill a hole the same size as the stud, don't drill all the way through and finish drilling with the size required to either re thread or pilot hole or for ezy out. If the broken studs are the same distance apart, make up the jig with 1 hole and another can be on slotted centres, one the size of the bolt the other the drill size required, this is then bolted/clamped over the bolts to drill them out and re tapped, keeps the drill bit on centre, a hardened guide would be even better.
Hope this helps,
Kryn

YBAF
22nd Jan 2017, 12:23 PM
I tried heating and much lubricant but no luck. The side cover bolt heads just broke off . The metal in the old bolts is like plasticine it just bends and fractures so easily . Its now the ezy out method . BTW the bolt threads measure up as 5.85mm OD - there are little copper washers behind the bolt head , a sealing method I guess .

The other possible fix is to drill out and tap to the next size up which would be 5/16" or 8mm . There is enough room to do this and I feel it would be an easier fix method.

Going off comments I've seen in other forums - If the bolts are soft then get yer-self a left hand drill thats just big enough to save the threads and pick out whats left in the threads. Being a left hand drill it will likely enuf pick-up the bolt remnants and screw them out anyway.

morrisman
22nd Jan 2017, 03:14 PM
My options would be in this order:

1. Try the LH drill and see how it goes - using a jig to align the drill bit on centre.

2. If the LH drill isn't successful then try the jig method and ezy out. If this doesn't work then.

3. Drill and tap to larger size .

Its a slow tedious job but it will turn out OK

Somebody else I read somewhere , suggested dripping acid into the pilot hole and waiting for the broken piece to be eaten away .

In any case I've got other things to do like find a set of tyres. A major PITA because they are 900 X 16 and cost a fortune , if I can find some suitable. The original tyres are RUN FLATS which I won't be using .

KBs PensNmore
22nd Jan 2017, 06:55 PM
I'd be cautious in dripping acid down the bolt hole, the casting itself could be eaten out.
Kryn

SurfinNev
22nd Jan 2017, 08:53 PM
My ezy out is usually a piece of suitable allen key with a slight taper on the end. Drill hole slightly under the across corners size. Tap in then use a socket on the piece of allen key.

KBs PensNmore
22nd Jan 2017, 09:25 PM
I try to avoid ezy outs like the plague. Have several different types and found them all to swell the bolt to the extent that they bind up even tighter. I drill them out to as close as possible, then try to get the remains out anyway that works, including heating to soften the remains, and then pick them out.
Kryn

jhovel
22nd Jan 2017, 11:52 PM
Hi. I see you mentioned 5/16 or M8 as the next bolt size up. Don't overlook M7! Its pitch size is also 1mm (same as M6) and completeley clears the M6 hole. They are still in use and turn up in the darndest places: For reasons I can't fathom, Supercheap Auto stock them, both bolts and nuts, in hi tensile and zinc plated..... Honda still use them in a few places as well. Have used them quite a bit. Taps and dies are easy to get too.

morrisman
1st Feb 2017, 11:45 PM
I managed to get the heavy 3.5 litre engine out of the chassis today , I used a SCA engine crane that I bought years ago. The engine is rated at only 60 bhp but that's limited with a governor ( military convoys were slow ) . The carby is a special Solex updraft . The generator is driven by the timing chain , a duplex chain typical of British vehicles.

This vehicle has hydraulic brakes . The pipes are copper and only single flares too.

morrisman
15th Feb 2017, 09:40 PM
A common problem with this type of truck, the 70+ year old tyres are very difficult to remove from the split rims.

The rim halves bolt together . The tyres are RUN FLATS , there is a locking piece between the beads ( see pic ) , the idea is vehicle can be driven with no air in the tube.

Any suggestions welcome. I may have to cut into the tyre to gain access to the beads , and then grind away the wire inside the beads . What type of cutter would be suitable for cutting into old rubber ?

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KBs PensNmore
15th Feb 2017, 10:10 PM
As there's a tube inside, I'd wrap some chain loosely, around the tyre and rim in 4 places, and then inflate the tube CAREFULLY. Hopefully, it'll break the grip on the tyre and rim. You could spray some WD 40 or soap suds around the rim to help. Failing that, I've used a reciprocating saw fitted with a hacksaw blade to cut it as close to the rim as possible, then used a sliding bead breaker to get the last bit off.
Kryn

Oldneweng
15th Feb 2017, 10:56 PM
I have to admit I have used an ordinary angle grinder to cut old tyres off from around trees. Worked ok.

Dean

KBs PensNmore
15th Feb 2017, 11:25 PM
That's OK if you like the smell of burning rubber.:oo:
Kryn

jhovel
16th Feb 2017, 01:31 AM
Are you unable to separate the two wheel halves? Kryn's suggestion to inflate the tyre should at least do that.
Then you may be able to put a spacer between the halves from the inside to use a big hammer or a press to dislodge the beads....

Sent from my InFocus M808 using Tapatalk

Oldneweng
16th Feb 2017, 01:04 PM
That's OK if you like the smell of burning rubber.:oo:
Kryn

Nope. Outgrew that years ago. Took my step daughter and family out to tea in Mount Gambier a few weeks back. (The offer nearly made her fall over in shock :D) There was a car show going on at the time, close by at the showgrounds. The burning rubber smoke was thick all around and the smell terrible. Luckily not inside the pub.

The smell of cutting the tyres was not a problem for me, but I sometimes forget that not everyone is out in the bush with wide open spaces around. :):U

Dean

KBs PensNmore
16th Feb 2017, 03:47 PM
Living in a town of ratbags, sometimes we have no option of putting up with it. It's bad in the evenings when you call 131444 to report it, and they turn up 3 hrs later, "where are the culprits" and is asked. You wouldn't want to be in a house alone and a bugler comes in. 2 cars to cover 300 + square kilometres:?
Kryn

morrisman
16th Feb 2017, 08:19 PM
I have decided to cut V or pie shaped sections into the tyres. I have a electric chain saw , the old rubber is very crumbly so it should be effective. Once the inner beads are exposed I can grind into the wire and break the grip .

Oldneweng
17th Feb 2017, 01:09 AM
I have decided to cut V or pie shaped sections into the tyres. I have a electric chain saw , the old rubber is very crumbly so it should be effective. Once the inner beads are exposed I can grind into the wire and break the grip .

That sounds interesting. Glad it is you doing it, not me. I have never used an electric chainsaw, but I would never consider using any of my saws like this. Good way to injure yourself seriously, but as mentioned I have never used an electric one. Wire is one of the biggest risks when using a chainsaw.

Dean

Oldneweng
17th Feb 2017, 01:15 AM
Living in a town of ratbags, sometimes we have no option of putting up with it. It's bad in the evenings when you call 131444 to report it, and they turn up 3 hrs later, "where are the culprits" and is asked. You wouldn't want to be in a house alone and a bugler comes in. 2 cars to cover 300 + square kilometres:?
Kryn

300 + square kilometers? Our local boys probably have 2500 + square kilometers to cover. Luckily we happen to be a pretty well behaved lot around here. I have heard about the local reputation there in the past. Passed thru the town many times, but never stayed for long. Hows the Bunyip?

Dean

morrisman
17th Feb 2017, 07:42 PM
I decided to use the trusty Stihl

This is not a easy job, a fair amount of tenacity is needed and body fitness as well .The most difficult part is cutting the wire hidden deep in the beads , this is done with a angle grinder then drilling and a chisel .

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KBs PensNmore
17th Feb 2017, 10:30 PM
Have you gotten the replacement tyres for it and were they easy to find? Going by the thickness of the tread area, it would take some nail to go through it.
Kryn

chambezio
18th Feb 2017, 08:50 AM
Morrisman....you mentioned the high cost of new tyres, if I was in your position I would not fit new tyres yet. I would leave them go until the end of the restoration. Why? The tyres while sitting on the vehicle while the rest of the work is done will develop flats due to the weight concentrated in only one spot. Should the restoration run over more than a year the flats may be very hard to overcome. Put the tyre money into more immediate jobs first

morrisman
18th Feb 2017, 10:25 AM
Thanks for the tips

Yes I have the new tyres. A stroke of luck, I recently bought six new 14 ply tyres very cheap - actually for less than half retail price . The holdup on this restoration was the lack of new tyres - I can go ahead with the restoration now .

The new tyres have a strong thick wall and should be OK if left sitting for some time. A year for the rebuild..I wish I could - but it will be more like 10 years at my work pace !

Kryn the old tyres were designed to be bullet proof , literally . These old tyres are damn heavy, I can just manage to lift one up and wheel it a short distance

KBs PensNmore
18th Feb 2017, 12:07 PM
Someone told me that provided the tyres are kept in the dark, they will cure better and get a far better life span out of them.
While you're doing the restoration have the axles on stands so that there is no weight on the wheels.
Kryn.

morrisman
26th Feb 2017, 09:22 PM
Been working on the rear axle . The old leather pinion seal is stuffed and the 2" diameter yoke had a groove worn into it . I machined the yoke down to 50mm , I can now fit a new 50mm oil seal .The OD of the old seal is 2.75" and this is close enough to 70mm .

This truck was rated at 15cwt load capacity by the British army but everything in it is engineered more like a 3 ton truck :)

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chambezio
26th Feb 2017, 11:22 PM
With Army Specs a vehicle with a 5 ton road capacity would be a 2 ton Off road capacity vehicle

morrisman
27th Feb 2017, 08:32 PM
With Army Specs a vehicle with a 5 ton road capacity would be a 2 ton Off road capacity vehicle

Yes I have heard similar.

BTW this old Morris is fitted with unusual joints for the prop shaft from gearbox to rear axle. LAYRUB joints . (http://www.altraex.com/desktopmodules/vizisoft.VExHotSpot/HotSpot.ashx?Key=heavy_twiflex_p007-7003&ln=en)Normally prop shafts have a slip joint to allow for suspension movement , the shaft in this truck has no slip joint in it at all, instead, I think the LAYRUB design allows for some lateral movement in the joints themselves.

morrisman
3rd Mar 2017, 09:39 PM
I am at a loss . Why would anybody use .907" diameter: as the king pin size for the front axle of a vehicle ?

I have two front axles pulled apart , and both of them use that size king pin . Could it be, they are 23mm ? The engine has metric bolts and is also a metric bore size, so maybe Morris used metric king pins ?

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franco
4th Mar 2017, 12:58 PM
I am at a loss . Why would anybody use .907" diameter: as the king pin size for the front axle of a vehicle ?

I have two front axles pulled apart , and both of them use that size king pin . Could it be, they are 23mm ? The engine has metric bolts and is also a metric bore size, so maybe Morris used metric king pins ?

FWIW I restored a couple of Morris cars many years ago, one pre war and one post war, and only the engines were metric - the king pins were a standard Imperial size. However, some companies did supply oversized kingpins to make it easy to repair flogged out king pin holes in an axle - just ream them out to the next standard oversize. and fit oversize bushes. Maybe Morris also supplied oversized kingpins. 0.907 is 7/8" + 0.032", though .032" does seem a fairly large amount over standard. They could possibly have been in steps of 0.008" or 0.016" Maybe the kingpins were 0.900" and oversizes were say 0.004" and 0.008". which would account for the odd kingpin size? It might be worth checking if oversized kingpins were available for Morris trucks.

Frank.

morrisman
9th Mar 2017, 09:24 PM
The chassis and other bits like wheel rims are back from the sandblaster . Now I can begin the long job - putting it all back together .

The Lockheed hydraulic brake system would have been a relatively new thing back then.
Did I mention the copper brake pipes , with single flares ? That's how they originally did it . Not sure what I will do because copper brake pipes were banned here years ago , they tend to work harden and fracture if they are not firmly attached.

I have witnessed a vehicle careering down a mountain road with no brakes, it flew passed me like a rocket , a hydraulic brake pipe had fractured - the pipe was vibrating and eventually it broke . 2 occupants were extremely lucky to survive the crash , both were thrown over the windscreen and narrowly missed a big tree

KBs PensNmore
9th Mar 2017, 10:17 PM
Are you going for concourse standards??? If not, any decent brake place can make them up for you, or buy a double flaring tool. What size brake pipe is it?
10 Pcs Brake & Air Line Double Flaring Tool Kit w 3 in 1 Tube Bender&Tube Cutter | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/322202113756?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) , looking around the $60.00 mark.
Kryn

jhovel
9th Mar 2017, 10:54 PM
You could get a roll of steel brakepipe and get it copper plated to maintain the 'look' without changing the metallurgy - and gain external corrosion resistance....

morrisman
10th Mar 2017, 12:09 AM
Are you going for concourse standards??? If not, any decent brake place can make them up for you, or buy a double flaring tool. What size brake pipe is it?
10 Pcs Brake & Air Line Double Flaring Tool Kit w 3 in 1 Tube Bender&Tube Cutter | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/322202113756?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) , looking around the $60.00 mark.
Kryn

Hi Kryn. I should have given more details :)

1/4" pipes they are. Yes I have a modern double flaring tool but the problem is, all of the original old copper pipe fittings/connectors are brass and they are specially designed for the narrow single flares . If I change over to modern steel bundy tubing and double flares, I will have to replace the whole hydraulic system, eg new connectors , new T joiners , new hoses , plus make up pipe adapters for the master cylinder - a messy business.

I Believe copper alloy brake pipe tubing is available in the UK , they add a element into the copper to alleviate the fatigue problem .

KBs PensNmore
10th Mar 2017, 09:38 PM
Hi Mike, I'd check with the local RTA office to find the legalities of using the copper tube. You might have to put in extra supports to stop it vibrating/work hardening to get it through.

morrisman
11th Mar 2017, 11:36 AM
Hi Mike, I'd check with the local RTA office to find the legalities of using the copper tube. You might have to put in extra supports to stop it vibrating/work hardening to get it through.

The stuff I need is ' cunifer ' brake pipe tubing, it's 90% copper and 10% nickel . Apparently not available here . But possibly I can get some in from the UK . I did use plain copper brake tubing on a vehicle I had many years ago, I never had any problem with it . Plain copper brake pipe is not available any more

morrisman
13th Mar 2017, 11:33 PM
The British were rated top in the engineering field in the 1940's but whoever made these precision ground pins must have had a late night out . They are nominal 9/16" but : one has a taper over 2.5" length from .5625" down to .5585", the other one is .558" from end to end . These are the driveline Layrub joint pins .
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jhovel
14th Mar 2017, 12:14 AM
"cu-ni-fer" also has iron in it.... (see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupronickel)
Copper-Nickel tubing may be available from
Copper Nickel Alloys - Austral Wright Metals (http://www.australwright.com.au/copper-nickel-alloys/)
or
Copper Nickel Press Fit Pipe and Fittings - MEI (http://www.meiaust.com.au/Copper-Nickel-Press-Fit-Pipe-and-Fittings/) or
BRAKE TUBING and Hardware (http://www.partswise.com.au/product-list/brake-tubing-and-hardware)
I easily found several US suppliers as well, just looking for information on it, even on eBay!
Be aware that it may be silver not copper colour.
Also: BrakeQuip call it "Eazybend" - that might help chasing it down too.
Cunifer Tubing | BrakeQuip (http://brakequip.com/products/tubing/cunifer-tubing/)
Their Australian distributors may be able to get it for you: Brake Hose Manufacturing Systems, BrakeQuip Australia (http://www.brakequip.com.au/)

morrisman
16th Mar 2017, 08:11 PM
Ah the joys of cleaning up old rusty parts. I have tried just about every method in previous restorations . Molasses comes up No. 1 for me , it's cheap , non toxic and it works very effectively. The 14" brake drums cleaned up nicely . The hydraulic brake cylinders , the 1 1/8" fronts are in good cond. but the 1.5" rears will probably need sleeving. Stainless is normally used for the sleeve . The original brake linings on the shoes are the old woven type linings , riveted on, I think brake lining technology has gone ahead and something better will be fitted. The big rear axle is a full floating design, where the load/driving torque is carried on the axle housing itself - if a broken half shaft occurs, the wheel stays in place . Other designs allow the wheel to come off if a axle breaks , I recall seeing a F100 on the roadside with its rear wheel hanging out about 2 feet with the broken half shaft still attached !

jhovel
17th Mar 2017, 02:30 AM
Just remember not to clean rusty spring steel with molasses. I can't recall the chemisty, but the chelating process changes something in the hardening of spring steel. It won't spring any more..... At least that's what happens to some springs. Use a redundant sample for testing. Maybe it has to do with alloying of some spring steels.

morrisman
18th Mar 2017, 07:37 PM
I spent a few hours today removing the studs in the block, i managed to get two of them out . Patience is needed and lots of it. The stud remover I picked up cheap years ago, the problem with it is, the studs are just too small for the teeth to grab onto . I fiddled and got 2 studs out but I need to find a better stud remover ( suggestions welcome ) . The PB blaster is excellent , I doubt I could have moved the studs without it .I Also heated up the studs near the deck , the PB blaster really penetrates well . Even after all that , I had to use a length of pipe on the stud remover .

KBs PensNmore
18th Mar 2017, 10:52 PM
Hi Mike, as far as I'm concerned this is the best type of stud removal tool, $14.98 and can be picked up from FJs Discount Tools.... Bayswater or Rosebud, in Melbourne. This was the first one that came up on Ebay.



http://i.ebayimg.com/images/m/mM5K2LtYBXi8e1wwUuOu-Vg/s-l200.jpg
Kryn

morrisman
19th Mar 2017, 03:51 PM
Thanks Kryn Yes I did have a puller similar to your pic , but with a single hole , not two . I broke it yesterday , I think it was a cheap Asian copy . If made from good steel, these style of pullers will do the job , but many of them you see in the shops are made from low quality crap metal . The puller I have ( in the picture ) , is intended for 15mm studs, it will not grab the 12mm studs .

franco
19th Mar 2017, 05:37 PM
The original brake linings on the shoes are the old woven type linings , riveted on, I think brake lining technology has gone ahead and something better will be fitted.

I may be way out with this suggestion in relation to the Morris truck, but if it were me I would investigate further before abandoning the old type soft woven linings. Before fitting modern ones I would check in an appropriate forum with someone who has actually replaced the woven linings with modern ones on one of these trucks. If the advice is that this is OK, get the same linings as they used. I know from bitter experience that is not a good idea to replace the soft woven linings with modern moulded linings on some twenties and early thirties vehicles fitted with mechanical brakes, particularly if they have pressed steel drums, (which does not appear in the photo to be the case with the Morris). They can cause very poor braking performance indeed.

The Morris brakes may well be powerful enough to handle the modern linings, but I would check first.

Frank.

morrisman
20th Mar 2017, 07:07 PM
, (which does not appear in the photo to be the case with the Morris). They can cause very poor braking performance indeed. The Morris brakes may well be powerful enough to handle the modern linings, but I would check first. Frank. The drums on this truck are a casting , maybe a type of cast iron ? The drum itself can be removed from the center hub. Back to the engine, I have removed the 12 valves , the inlet seats are in good shape , the exh. seats always suffer in these side valve engines but in this case they are in reasonable shape . I am thinking of fitting hard seat inserts for the ex.valves . Valve seat inserts are tricky to install, they often crack if the machinist has not allowed the correct clearance - Repco were notorious for this , crap workmanship . Today's unleaded fuel ???? I have read that they used unleaded petrol before the war , this is probably why the manual suggests a valve regrind at every 10,000 miles ! Imagine a decoke and a valve regrind every 10,000 miles ! The duplex timing chain is slack , stretched - I can rock the crank back/forward about 5 degrees before the slack is taken up ! Are these chains still available ?

jhovel
20th Mar 2017, 08:22 PM
Chains have been made to standards for probably 100 years. I would expect you could buy them at your local bearing service off the shelf by the meter. If you have trouble finding them, let me know. There used to be a chain manufacturer in Port Melbourne but they are gone now....

morrisman
20th Mar 2017, 09:00 PM
Hi Joe I just looked at the timing chain with a X 50 loupe , I can see " RENOLD ENGLAND" on each link, it measures at 3/8" pitch . I did a quick search and yes it is still available from a bearing service !

morrisman
20th Mar 2017, 09:21 PM
Getting back to the teeth pulling, oops I mean stud pulling - I have an idea. I will machine a length of 1045 steel, and drill it through to just over a 12mm bore . I will then drill a hole crosswise and also offset this hole to the 12mm bore . I will use a short length of a coarse file and taper it on one side , this is a wedge . Not sure what file shape to use yet, they come in many shapes. triangle, square etc. Anyway the wedge should grab onto the stud , the rotational force should add to the grabbing . This tool only needs to last the job , the snap on tools are a similar design but you need to sell your house to afford one

Chas
21st Mar 2017, 05:34 PM
The duplex timing chain is slack , stretched - I can rock the crank back/forward about 5 degrees before the slack is taken up ! Are these chains still available ?

Are you sure the chain is actually stretched ? While it is quite likely, the 5 degrees slack may not be indicative of excessive wear. Timing chain slack is adjustable on these engines IIRC by pivoting the alternator about its upper mounting bolt. There is also a jockey pulley on the chain to increase its arc of contact with the generator sprocket, which should be checked. A meaningful test of the chain is to see if you can lift links away from the camshaft sprocket at the centre of the chain's arc of contact with the sprocket when the chain is in tension.

Chas.

morrisman
21st Mar 2017, 07:37 PM
The chain diagram from the manual . Renold chains is in Clayton and they have replacement chain no problem . I made the home made stud puller described in post 52 and it does the job, the only hiccup is the wedge needs to be a precise fit otherwise it tends to break under the stress.

morrisman
22nd Mar 2017, 11:33 AM
This movie shows the type of Morris I am restoring, France 1940.


British Expeditionary Force In France 1940 British Regiment Pass - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/british-expeditionary-force-in-france-1940-britis/query/15+cwt)

morrisman
25th Mar 2017, 09:43 PM
Been having a little problem . The camshaft is stuck . On the end of the timing gear, there is a spring loaded button , this button sits against a little block in the timing cover. I think the helical gear that drives the oil pump shaft , forces the camshaft forwards against the spring... not sure yet. The other possible thing they did is the front camshaft bearing may be tapered ?? Anyway the camshaft is stuck because it has moved forward 2-3mm and the helical gear has jammed into its mating gear on the oil pump shaft . I need to buy a 55mm socket , the large nut you see has a locking tab, ive already bent the tab over. BTW the vehicles in that movie were, all of them without exception, either destroyed or captured and used by " the enemy " On the flywheel end of the crankshaft, there is a machined groove, this groove throws the oil inwards , a crude oil seal of sorts. The bearing journals will clean up with a polish , emery paper . The bearing caps have brass shims to adjust clearance , there are two shims each side , will see how I go with the plastigauge

Chas
26th Mar 2017, 05:49 PM
I suggest you first remove the oil pump from the engine before trying to remove the cam shaft. You may find there is a bolted flange retaining the camshaft behind the camshaft gear. There appears to be holes (threaded?) in the gear which would be for a puller. You will find it easier to undo the camshaft nut if the timing chain is in place; you can then jamb the crankshaft to prevent rotation.

I am not aware of any engine with tapered camshaft bearings. Oil return threads work very well in practice, but they are only effective if the mating outer housing is correctly positioned, i.e. symmetrically with the correct clearance.

Chas.

morrisman
27th Mar 2017, 11:35 AM
The camshaft is out... I began by carefully hitting the oil pump out with a bar inserted down the distributor drive housing, a few steady blows and it came out . The camshaft was still stuck , I gently hit the rear end of the camshaft , it moved forward slightly , I then tapped each end of the camshaft with a soft hammer , with patience it finally came free . The camshaft journals run in the cast iron block... not seen this before, they usually use white metal bearings. Not able to remove the crankshaft yet , the rear disc with the oil thrower grooves is fouling the rear bearing cap , I have to somehow remove that oil slinger disc, maybe with a puller ?

Chas
27th Mar 2017, 02:31 PM
That's interesting, the data sheet I have for a similar vehicle (Morris Commercial "Leader" 3-4 ton & 4-5ton 1937) gives the camshaft "Four bearings. Front bearing bronze bushed with white-metal lining, flange in front to take thrust of sprocket. Forward thrust taken by spring-loaded hardened steel pin bearing against pad on timing cover. Other bearings are plain, shaft running direct in casting".

Can you provide a photo showing detail of the problem with the oil thrower and crankshaft removal? It is not obvious from the previous photos.

Chas.

morrisman
27th Mar 2017, 05:07 PM
Hi Chas The engine I am working on is basically out of the Morris 25 Saloon and also in some of the CV range of trucks . I have the Morris Commercial book written by Harry Edwards , he does mention the 'Leader' . The other problem . I have done a basic drawing of the rear main/thrust bearing setup. The oil slinger disc has a flange on its inner edge and when I lift the crankshaft upwards to remove it , the lower bearing shell jams against that flange . I cannot move the crankshaft forward/backward because the bearing shell thrust faces prevent this. I have removed the upper bearing cap and the two studs but the upper bearing half shell is still resting on the crank journal, I cannot get it out because the flange is in the way PS just had a look and guess what ? You are correct , the front camshaft bearing is white metal , the other three are plain cast iron . raining here and it is BADLY needed

KBs PensNmore
27th Mar 2017, 05:42 PM
Any chance of a photo/s of the oil thrower please?
Kryn

morrisman
27th Mar 2017, 06:35 PM
Any chance of a photo/s of the oil thrower please? Kryn hi Kryn Will take a pic tomorrow, the oil thrower appears to be non-removable .

morrisman
27th Mar 2017, 06:54 PM
I just received an email from the UK. The message tells me: the oil thrower comes off ! With so much oil and grime its difficult for me to see whats going on. Anyway I will proceed . Edit: I took this pic a few days ago

morrisman
29th Mar 2017, 09:03 PM
I removed the crankshaft today. The oil thrower was not a problem after all , I heated it up and it fell off ! After the thrower cooled down it would not fit back on, a shrink fit it is. Anyway the block is ready to be taken to a engine builder to be hot dipped, bored and hard exhaust seats installed . Does anybody know of a good engine rebuilder business this side of Melbourne, experienced with vintage stuff ? Most of the old rebuilders who knew the ins and outs have retired , and I don't want to end up with a badly machined block.

morrisman
15th Aug 2017, 01:55 PM
The second engine block ( first one no good ) is still at the engine machining place for a rebore, its been there for over 2 months . I tried asking when it will be done but they are stalling. Got to be careful not to upset them but it may go on for ages. I will give it another few weeks and go and get it and try somewhere else

morrisman
24th Aug 2017, 07:44 PM
Just got a big shock. The guy from the engine place range me, the Morris engine block is ready to be picked up . The charge is $1675 ..this for dip cleaning , boring and surfacing a 6 cyl. engine block . And surfacing the head . Bloody hell ! Are these high charges normal these days ? Seems a rippoff to me but I've never had a block bored before . whinge whinge

KBs PensNmore
24th Aug 2017, 08:38 PM
Hi Mike, don't forget that most businesses charge around $100+ per hour for labour and machine. That cost would have included the other engine block that you took for repair, but wasn't suitable, then you've Grab Snatch and Take (GST) on top of it all. The block would have been in the dip for 2-3 hours at least, the boring could go for an hour per cylinder, including honing, there is a bit of set up time involved. The head could be another hour + depending on type of machine.
What was wrong with the other block, the cost there, could be if they had bored 5 cylinders and found the 6th one stuffed.
Did you ask for a quote?
Kryn

morrisman
25th Aug 2017, 12:07 PM
Hi Kryn The first block I took to him has very worn bores and he said it needed to be bored to +40 thou, problem is I only have new +20 pistons so that killed off that block, but he did resurface the deck of that block. The second block I took to him , he has bored and honed to +20 thou and decked the top and also resurfaced the head . Yes I know they charge 100 bucks an hour but it still seems excessive to me . Yes you are correct , he told me the charges include the work on the first block . I could have taken the head to my friendly toolmaker in Drouin who does my mill tables for me for 100 bucks, he's got a massive surface grinder . I was tossing up if I should get the head resurfaced as it was not too bad condition, but as I was having the block done I thought I might as well do the head too. No didn't get a quote........ my mistake, but even with a quote would it have made any difference . I won't be going back to him that's for sure, I reckon about 800-900 would have been fair .

KBs PensNmore
25th Aug 2017, 08:48 PM
As a comparison ring around to other engine reconditioners and ask what the cost would be to do what you had done? If the prices are similar, with in a hundred, you'll know it's about right, but if it a lot different, I'd complain and see if you could get a refund.
With a quote, by law it cannot be varied, unless you ask for extra work to be done, and you'd have been aware of the cost.
Kryn

morrisman
26th Aug 2017, 05:41 PM
Bugger, found two short cracks in the block,either side of a stud hole . Maybe some loctite on the stud will seal it ?

KBs PensNmore
26th Aug 2017, 08:38 PM
Hi Mike, That's a real bugger, it's a wonder the engine reconditioner didn't say something, if it stuck out like that. I know someone who had a similar problem. What they did was, drill and tap a hole along the crack,starting at one end, screwed in a bolt, then cut the head off and did the same again on the edge of the screwed in bolt, and repeated the operations until the crack was filled with bolts. There is a name for this process, but it's beyond my memory ATM.
Kryn

morrisman
26th Aug 2017, 09:53 PM
Hi Kryn It could turn into a disaster if I try to drill into the crack . I am inclined to leave it alone and hope for the best . Ive also discovered the block has had a poor cleanout , it isn't any cleaner inside than when I dropped it off at his place ! If he did actually dip it into a bath, it was a very weak solution in the bath because it had no effect as far as I can see. I did a online search for engine boring costs and it is clearly apparent that I was overcharged by this rippoff merchant.

KBs PensNmore
26th Aug 2017, 11:57 PM
Why do you think it'll turn into a disaster??? The block I was referring to was a 1948 International, it had a crack on the outside of the block into the water jacket, and is still holding after 5 years.
The process is called Metal Stitching and I found a link for it.
https://www.metalock.co.uk/typical-on-site-repairs/metal-stitching.aspx
It would be a better fix than a Locktite fix, IMHO.
Kryn

caskwarrior
27th Aug 2017, 09:08 AM
I wish i had a penetrating dye crack detection kit because its always useful to know the depth. I can second the metal stitching technique i used it on a mazda 1300 block and it lasted many years. May even still be going. At least you have a dud block to practice on.

Chas
27th Aug 2017, 07:03 PM
Looking at your problem, I would not think metal stitching is the best solution. It works well where a crack is surrounded by metal, such as in an outside water-jacket, but in the situation you have, this process is more likely to place additional stress on the cracked webs in the block, leading to a possible catastrophe. The cracks probably don't go deeper than the bottom of the stud hole at present, and were likely caused by over-tightening of that particular stud when it was originally installed. I am sure the engine has run successfully for a long time since then.
My suggestion is to use Loctite 243 on that particular stud when you re-assemble the engine, taking care that there is no excess in the hole to cause the stud to "hydraulic", and do not over-tighten. Loctite 243 is able to tolerate oil, and seal against water.
Another possible? solution is GM Sealing Compound P/N 3835215 which was used on Holden motors some years ago to seal head bolt threads where they screwed directly through to the water jacket.

Chas.

morrisman
18th Oct 2017, 11:19 PM
Not much done on the Morris truck project recently, something always seems to get in the way, like caring for my 93 year old mother and preparing for the bush fire season and other stuff.

I need to do some minor chassis repairs first of all .

These trucks were fitted with different styles of bodies , most of them had a wooden cargo body with drop sides but just recently an original water bowser body has appeared for sale . It's a 200 gallon oval tank , the ancillaries are missing from the tank eg stuff like the water filters and taps . The water tank would be a cheaper option because If I did fit a wooden body, I would have to have the 7/8" thick boards milled from kiln dried timber , not cheap .

caskwarrior
18th Oct 2017, 11:43 PM
How well has the tank survived?

morrisman
19th Oct 2017, 12:17 AM
How well has the tank survived?

In remarkably good condition .
370695370694370696

Oldneweng
19th Oct 2017, 08:59 AM
You did say you were preparing for the fire season. It would be handy for that.

Dean

morrisman
19th Oct 2017, 11:53 AM
You did say you were preparing for the fire season. It would be handy for that.

Dean

Yes a dual purpose vehicle, drive it to vintage car shows and also fight fires at home :)

.RC.
19th Oct 2017, 02:04 PM
Morrisman have you considered posting over at the HCVC website?

morrisman
19th Oct 2017, 05:31 PM
Morrisman have you considered posting over at the HCVC website?

Yep I do have a look there now and then. Trouble is, here in Aust. these military Morris trucks are pretty thin on the ground and most people have not heard of them or seen one. There are many more of these trucks surviving in the UK, compared to Australia . There are a few particular facebook pages that are set up for Morris and other British Commonwealth army vehicles , these I find are a very useful source of information

Here is a movie showing the water bowser in use . The vehicles in the film are Bedfords but the water tank is exactly the same as the Morris one

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F05257/