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YBAF
4th Jun 2016, 11:55 AM
ADMIN Note.

Thread split from here, http://metalworkforums.com/f282/t199272-spring-maker-closing-auction

Strange how the main expense of a coal power station, i.e. coal, has dramatically fallen in price and yet power bills keep climbing.
Here in QLD our power is mainly coal based and yet commercial business will be hit with a 10% increase in power costs.
...and yet they tell us wind and solar power is free. :shifty:

Hunch
5th Jun 2016, 10:20 AM
^^Seeing coal supply to the stations is on fixed price contracts stretching over several years, you might stop playing that busted-asre record, just for a while! If it's anything like here, it's power companies gaming network pricing.

Oldneweng
5th Jun 2016, 10:46 AM
^^Seeing coal supply to the stations is on fixed price contracts stretching over several years, you might stop playing that busted-asre record, just for a while! If it's anything like here, it's power companies gaming network pricing.

My fixed costs seem to have gone up far more than the variable costs. I think this is a result of the increase in domestic solar power generation. These costs are not reduced by using solar panels. This is disappointing as it reduces the benefit of any power saving efforts by householders.

Dean

YBAF
5th Jun 2016, 12:07 PM
^^Seeing coal supply to the stations is on fixed price contracts stretching over several years, you might stop playing that busted-asre record, just for a while! If it's anything like here, it's power companies gaming network pricing.

Can we see some proof for your claims please ?

Grahame Collins
5th Jun 2016, 12:30 PM
The thread topic is about the closure of a springs works

If the coal vs solar conversation is to continue it can be held else where.

Stop it right here or I may have to close close the thread.

Grahame

YBAF
5th Jun 2016, 03:02 PM
The thread topic is about the closure of a springs works

If the coal vs solar conversation is to continue it can be held else where.

Stop it right here or I may have to close close the thread.

Grahame

Is not the cost of power one of the main expenses of a machine shop or factory ?

I would of thought that costly power causing factory's to close was of high relevance to the discussion ...and to a METAL WORK forum.

.RC.
5th Jun 2016, 03:19 PM
The local spring manufacturer was in the local paper last week for spending a million dollars on solar panels to try to cut their electricity bill down which has risen 250% in ten years. Dobinsons Spring & Suspension – Official Site (http://www.dobinsonsprings.com/)

They say their spring division now makes a loss and it subsidised by their other divisions.

Although in my opinion they are silly for doing so and they should just close the plant and relocated the whole plant to somewhere like Thailand. They would make more money doing that since they export a lot anyway.

YBAF
5th Jun 2016, 04:44 PM
Here is a submission from Glen Dobinson...
http://www.qca.org.au/getattachment/3fc52461-3cd3-4231-b275-fbfbbdf2483c/Dobinsons-Springs.aspx

Absolutely astounding the amount of damage the wind/solar folly is causing to Australian business.

.RC.
5th Jun 2016, 06:57 PM
You are looking at the ten headed dragon YBAF but only looking at the one head marked renewable energy and ignoring all the other heads that contributed to the massive electricity rises we have seen.

Did you know the likes of Ergon and Energex being government owned pay huge dividends to the state government which use it to prop up the state budget. The state government has since palmed off $4 billion of state debt onto the power companies.

Did you know that the costs these days to maintain the network are huge. They do things that were never done fifteen years ago. We never used to see stop/go people when Ergon were repairing powerlines 50m off the road. Now they have them. There are always lots of workers involved and lots standing around.

We had ergon around trimming trees. They had a scout come out to have a look, then they sent people out to do the work, then they sent a third person out to check the work was done. Trees that should be cut down get trimmed. I read they spent $30 000 relocating a birds nest in some urban area.

Yes renewables are a significant part of the cost, but not the whole reason.

YBAF
5th Jun 2016, 11:33 PM
You are looking at the ten headed dragon YBAF but only looking at the one head marked renewable energy and ignoring all the other heads that contributed to the massive electricity rises we have seen.

Did you know the likes of Ergon and Energex being government owned pay huge dividends to the state government which use it to prop up the state budget. The state government has since palmed off $4 billion of state debt onto the power companies.

Did you know that the costs these days to maintain the network are huge. They do things that were never done fifteen years ago. We never used to see stop/go people when Ergon were repairing powerlines 50m off the road. Now they have them. There are always lots of workers involved and lots standing around.

We had ergon around trimming trees. They had a scout come out to have a look, then they sent people out to do the work, then they sent a third person out to check the work was done. Trees that should be cut down get trimmed. I read they spent $30 000 relocating a birds nest in some urban area.

Yes renewables are a significant part of the cost, but not the whole reason.

RC, I'd like to know more about this 4 billion state debt. Is it not power related?

Don't answer me in this thread RC as the moderators have deemed power costs off topic to the thread ? And the discusion is to go to the "Off Topic" section.
Perhaps the moderator can move the power costs causing spring works closure discussion part of this thread to a new thread in the Off Topic section ?

pippin88
6th Jun 2016, 11:29 PM
My understanding of the greatest contributor to power price rises is the increasing network costs, which have been fairly accurately described as good plating.

The network has been upgraded to allow your neighbour to run their 5 air con units at 18°C on 40° days, and 27° on 5° days. We then all pay every day to build and maintain the network to cope with this peak demand.

The companies win because the regulators allow them to charge more because they have built up the network. It is an interesting arrangement where the power companies get guaranteed returns.

Hunch
7th Jun 2016, 07:44 AM
Can we see some proof for your claims please ?

Do you seriously believe the generators go to market every time they need a load of coal, in an industry where reliable supply and price stability is imperative? Must have been real exxy up there a few years back to switch on the lights if that's the case! Anyhow, probably piddlin in the wind, we did some work for a mine a few years back, which had one such fixed price contract, should be multiple sources of confirmation out there for you that they exist - and knowing this, should be a doddle, if you keep out of the conspiracy spectrum you seem to enjoy....


With the high end any subject education available at any time on the internet why waste time watching the idiot box.

This should have been excised from the other thread too -


And we can thank the idiots who want solar and wind power for the factory closure. Power bills just keep going up and up so its no wonder they carn't compete.
From what I hear Chinese factorys pay one third of the Oz power rates and their power stations run on Australian coal. The shear stupidity of it all. :doh:

Chinese production of thermal coal actually dwarfs Australia's exports there, but it's a good yarn anyway. Given the original subject I'd be hugely surprised if a spring maker's biggest energy cost was electricity anyhow.

Master Splinter
11th Jun 2016, 09:48 AM
A $20 billion dollar overinvestment in infrastructure is the reason why power costs in Australia have increased:

"In the past few years, our electricity prices have doubled. While the media has feasted on the likes of pink batts, Peter Slipper and Craig Thomson, the astonishing story behind these price hikes has been all but ignored. And yet, it may be one of the greatest rorts in Australia’s history"
"Since 2009, the electricity networks that own and manage our “poles and wires” have quietly spent $45 billion on the most expensive project this country has ever seen. Allowed to run virtually unchecked, they’ve spent vast sums on infrastructure we don’t need, and have charged it all to us, with an additional fee attached. The spending was approved by a federal regulator, and yet the federal government didn’t even note it until it was well underway."


Full article here:

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jess-hill/power-corrupts

A worthwhile read for anyone who wants to know the actual reasons why power in Australia costs now costs so much.

Spoiler warning:
The big electricity price increases over the last ten years have very little to do with carbon tax/renewable energy.


Here are some more choice quotes:

"According to the federal treasury, 51% of your electricity bill goes towards “network charges”.

"the electricity networks were regulated by 13 independent bodies, which decided what the networks could spend and what they could charge consumers. In 2005, the Howard government replaced them all with one new federal body: the Australian Energy Regulator."

“Many states owned the network businesses, and they didn’t want a federal regulator coming down too hard on them,” says Rod Sims, chairman of the ACCC.

“It was like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank,” says Roman Domanski, the former head of the Energy Users Association of Australia.

"According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, the electricity industry’s profits rose by 67% between 2007–08 and 2010–11. In this same period, electricity bills rose 40%."

"There was a perverse incentive in the system for overinvestment in the poles and wires, and that led to dramatic profits for those businesses.”

"... the Productivity Commission concluded its own inquiry into the industry. In a stinging report, it said that although some of these changes had started to address some of the industry’s flaws, much more needed to be done: “There is, in effect, no point simply changing a punctured tyre if the car has no engine.” Delays in reforming the industry, it wrote, “cost consumers … hundreds of millions of dollars”.

Oldneweng
12th Jun 2016, 12:18 AM
Domestic solar energy will reduce the need for this infrastructure as it produces power close to where the consumption is. We are also paying rental on the smart meters. There is no indication how much this cost is, but when they were being rolled out initially, I recall a figure of something around the $40.00 per quarter. Almost perpetual income. It would be interesting to know how much they cost. I have heard a figure that would mean mine has already been covered. I understand the need for them, but some truth and transperency would be nice.

Dean