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Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 11:16 AM
Well, I have been fortunate enough through shear great luck, to have found myself with the following.


The process went like this.
Lathe was loaded onto trailer so that the head stock was towards the draw bar.
Using engine crane, sling around bead at tail stock end with blocks of wood to protect rods, and drag lathe so that tail stock was hanging mid air out the back of the trailer. Land tail on a stack of wooden blocks.
Reposition engine crane so that a sling could be positioned around bead close to head. Lift head and remove trailer. Land lathe on shed floor.
Using jacking work platform under bed to reposition lathe against wall of shed.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%208%2034%2018%20pm.jpg
So other than a bit of a clean up with some WD40 that’s where im at. Im now trying to work out exactly what i have and what to do next. Its all new to me as i have never had one of these.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2025%2004%20pm.jpg (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2025%2004%20pm.jpg)




https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2028%2056%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2025%2030%20pm.jpg




what do these numbers mean, would the top bold number be in mm and the smaller number underneath be what?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2025%2037%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2025%2055%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2029%2004%20pm.jpg


it looks like it has a MT3 tail stock. There is a 3 jaw chuck on it. I have a 4 jaw that’s 260mm in diameter around the outside of the housing, but its missing one of the jaws. any help here would be appreciated.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%2010%2008%2031%20pm.jpg
not sure what to do about that.


This is the only other tooling i have at present.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2031%2006%20pm.jpg


no fixed or travelling steadies. Not sure i’ll need them just yet.

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 11:17 AM
I removed the fibreglass cover on the left side of the head and this is what i found
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2058%2020%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%209%2058%2014%20pm.jpg


it should take a 1” bar through the bore.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%2010%2000%2043%20pm.jpg


It is a 3 phase 2HP motor so I will need to look into that.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%2010%2007%2023%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%2010%2002%2004%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%2010%2003%2018%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%2010%2004%2048%20pm.jpg


almost everything seems to move ok. I pulled the front cover of the quick change gearbox so i could see inside and it looks ok (graduation dial reset on cross and compounds feels a bit stiff, backlash and free play felt ok.)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%2010%2026%2051%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-09-2014%2010%2027%2027%20pm.jpg


Where to from here?
What do I clean it with?
What should I use to oil it and protect it? At this stage all I have done is spray a bit of WD40 on it.


Thanks
Ryan

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 11:18 AM
Well, haven’t had a chance to do much with it, on account of trying to get the GT40 moulds sorted. However i did have a chance to pull the front cover off the electrical panel.
I wanted to do this so I could check a few things,


1 – what wires went where – now labelled, Left to right I have Pump, Run Switch, Mains in and Motor out.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2025-10-2014%2012%2016%2046%20am.jpg




2-is the missing chuck jaw for the 4 jaw chuck in the bottom of the coolant tank, thinking that some punk student might of posted it in the slot where the coolant returns to the tank.....
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2025-10-2014%2012%2016%2057%20am.jpg


Nope, I wish they could have been so inconsiderate.....the search continues.


3- Can I reuse the pump when i convert it to single phase.....
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2025-10-2014%2012%2018%2019%20am.jpg




4 – Nope, it defiantly has 4 wires going to it as well.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2025-10-2014%2012%2019%2029%20am.jpg


till next time
regards Ryan

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 11:20 AM
Slow progress, GT40 stuff has been a higher priority than this so its been on the back burner. Now that the bodies are starting to roll out and i'm not the critical path in the chain i can get back to this.


Just a few photos for reference latter. only managed to disconnect the old wiring lead, remove the motor and give it a clean and oil after it was outside for a week under a tarp with the shed floor work.


motor connections
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2021-06-2015%207%2049%2037%20pm.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2021-06-2015%207%2049%2050%20pm.jpg


Mains Connection
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2021-06-2015%207%2050%2009%20pm.jpg


After a clean
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2021-06-2015%207%2050%2027%20pm.jpg


Old motor mounts
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2021-06-2015%207%2050%2052%20pm.jpg


the "hot" switch, single pole single throw, Looks like it has a set of normally open (red and black wires) and normally closed terminals (no wires on these ones)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2021-06-2015%207%2051%2010%20pm.jpg

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 11:32 AM
Notes from yesterday
Race home from work
Strip motor of lathe again

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2018-11-2015%2C%2010%2018%2029%20PM.jpg




Stopped in at J Gardner Electric Motors in Moorabbin with my motor in hand. They have confirmed that the Lathe motor is wired for 415V 3phase AC in star configuration and has 3 wires coming out.

In order to connect it to a 240V VFD I need to re configure the motor so that it will be 240V AD 3phase delta configuration where it would require 6 wires to be connected in a specific order.
This would be easy if the motor was a 6 wire unit.
They gave me a price for a VFD as well as a new motor, but said that they could also potentially pull the motor down and re configure it and that they would replace the bearings at the same time, however the cost of this was going to be about the same as a new motor and they would recommend the new motor as the insulation/lacquer on the windings would be better and a known quantum.
They could not garentee how long the current motor would last if they did pull the windings out and re jig it
Obviously they want to sell a new motor
$650 + GST for motor and VFD.
I could get a single phase motor which has slip rings, starting capacitor ect, then I will need drive gear for that as well, the single phase motor was going to be $315+GST

They were able to identify the current motor as being manufactured in July 1974 by the 74G of the serial number. CMG were probably operating, building motors out of the Greenglass garage in hawthorn at that stage apparently. CMG were also the last motor manufacturer in Australia as well, their factory is now in China these days. This potentially dates the lathe back to 1974. Wonder if there are any other serial numbers that tell a similar story.

The existing motor is an old imperial frame, there is not going to be a bolt on motor available for it. New mounts and the drive pulley would have to be modified. Current motor has a 19.05mm ¾ shaft bore for the pulley. This would need to be drilled out to 24mm and re broached. This would be the same for 3phase or single phase.

If I have to change the motor then the belt is likely to need to be a different length. The current belt is looking a bit second hand as well, so Gardners then sent me down to Applied Technology on Chesterville rd.
Applied Technology said that they could not help with a new pulley so I will have to mod the existing one if I go that route. They think the existing belt was likely to be a 16PJ800 where the 16 is the number of ribs, PJ relates to the shape and dimensions of the rib, it is similar to an PK profile 9PK was a common belt that they had on the shelf) but smaller in rib height and width, whilst the 800 is the belt length. The PJ series belts basically come in a tube, that is the supplier will have a big role that is 800mm diameter and will just cut of the number of ribs that you request. Applied Technology was going to ask Optibelt if they had one.
Keilriemen, Zahnriemen und Antriebsriemen vom Hersteller - Optibelt (http://www.optibelt.com/)

So after all that I returned home empty handed.

I figured I have nothing to lose so have disassembled the motor to have a look. This went reasonably well except for 1 small problem which I'll get to in a minute.
On a plus side the pulley came of easily enough.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2018-11-2015%2C%2010%2019%2036%20PM.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2018-11-2015%2C%2010%2018%2048%20PM.jpg


I have located the point where the ends of the 3 windings are connected forming the star winding configuration. It should be simple enough to extend these wires and bring them out to the terminal box.
Then I could potentially reconfigure the motor. Very simple inside in comparison to a single phase motor as there is not slip rings, no starting windings, no throw out rings for the capacitor connections. A 3 phase should be a lot more reliable in that sense.

And the small problem, well, in the course of disassembly I used the wooden mallet to dislodge the bearing caps by striking the armature which has resulted in the internal fan on the drive end of the armature striking the stator windings which has put a few nicks in them.
Will need to do some continuity test/Megger tests to determine if I have knackered the insulation on the windings.

The risk with this is that the motor windings short out and blow the supply/VFD.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2019-11-2015%2C%208%2050%2056%20AM.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2019-11-2015%2C%208%2051%2027%20AM.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2019-11-2015%2C%208%2051%2041%20AM.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2019-11-2015%2C%208%2052%2025%20AM.jpg

and the bit that did the damage

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2019-11-2015%2C%208%2053%2031%20AM.jpg

.RC.
25th Dec 2015, 11:46 AM
I have found one of the cheapest mineral based cleaning solutions is mineral turps . last four litres I picked up was $9, which while I think there is a huge markup on it and a rip off, still cheaper then kerosene though , unless you can get JetA1 fuel cheap.

The four jaw is a Pratt Bunerd chuck. Company is still in business, no doubt jaws would be available for a price.

The numbers are top numbers threading pitch, bottom numbers power feed pitch, usually cross slide is 1/2 the saddle power feed pitch.

I would not bother with the suds (coolant) pump.

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:09 PM
More Notes;






36 slots, each slot is therefore 10 degrees, and since each phase is 60 degrees out, the start of the next phase should be 6 slots around the stator.
3 layers (there is 2 paper layers visible that separate the three phases, two of the feed wires go into each layer), i think its still classed as a single layer winding though as there is only 1 layer/phase per slot.
concentric winding
4 poles (there is 4 loops per layer, the poles will be at the junctions per loop)
this is a 1400 rpm motor, if there were 8 poles i would expect it to run around 700rpm, and if there were 2 poles if would go up to 2800rpm.


i'm trying to find a winding diagram so that i can work out which way to connect the wires so that i get the poles in the right order.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2020-11-2015%2C%2010%2057%2012%20PM.jpg


the old star ("Y") connection
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2020-11-2015%2C%2010%2057%2024%20PM.jpg

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:11 PM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/20hpwind.jpg


close........
looks like they are winding motors specifically for electric vehicles, there is a link to the Tesla vehicles winding pattern


Video Winding a 3 Phase Motor (http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=25.0)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wslYedGKcrE

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:12 PM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2025-11-2015%2C%209%2043%2052%20AM.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2025-11-2015%2C%209%2044%2005%20AM.jpg


its now got some braided heat shrink over it as well as the high temp barding
let me know if you see any issues with that.

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:13 PM
I have procured a VFD. rang Direct Automation and ordered over the phone Wednesday arvo, they packed and shipped the order and i had it Thursday morning. QLD to Melbourne, Toll couriered for ~$20. very happy with that.


1.5Kw Danfos VLT Micro Drive and key pad with potentiometer for speed control delivered for ~$400.


Finished extending the wires from the motor windings up to the junction box on the top of the motor.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2025-11-2015%2C%2010%2006%2009%20PM.jpg


had to try a few different terminal strips until i got one to fit. first one fitted great but was going to be a stugle to get the "UVW" phase wires from the VFD in as well. hopefully i can squeeze them in here. the wire labels are called "critchley" or something like that. i just had these ones left over from a rail job, so whilst not 100% correct they are better than nothing. Still need to do something with the Earths for the lathe and motor. you should be able to work out the new delta connection there as well.
a-1 is one phase, b-2 is the next phase and c-3 is the third phase.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2025-11-2015%2C%2010%2006%2055%20PM.jpg


now to fix the damage to the winding that i inflicted earlier i have this, hope it works and the smoke stays in.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2027-11-2015%2C%207%2040%2021%20AM.jpg


i am still waiting for the last couple of coats to dry, put another one on this morning before work.


i have started to run some test wiring for the VFD to see if it will all work. quick and dirty. final install will be better, but i just want to see it work first so its just stuff from the junk draw. the main earth is under the torx bolt and is a pain to use with double insulated ring terminals. might see if i can fit 2 wires together into a yellow one in there as the red and blue was annoying.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2027-11-2015%2C%207%2041%2000%20AM.jpg

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:18 PM
Its been a while since i have played with a lathe. probably 10 years. Tool blunt, not enough clearance underneath the cutting edge, too low as well........


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2030-11-2015%2C%209%2011%2057%20AM.jpg


fixed the play between the cross slide and the saddle, loosen grub screw and tighten and it removes the play between the bush where the screw driver is. much better.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2030-11-2015%2C%209%2012%2020%20AM.jpg

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:19 PM
remember the topic title.
i have know idea what i'm doing, but its fun......


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%206-12-2015%2C%205%2034%2050%20PM.jpg


first couple didn't go so well, it appears that it might be a multi start lead screw (3 or 4?), so if you don't catch the right part of the screw it ends up overlapping the thread you are trying to cut on the part of the material that hasen't had anything taken off it and the next thing you know your sharpening the tool again.


practice makes perfect.


the sharppie marker shown was a big help in working out when to engage the saddle.


really needs a DRO for the Saddle as there is no measurements on it at all. Only the cross slide and compound have graduations.


remember, lathes for dummies.

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:22 PM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2010-12-2015%2C%2010%2021%2015%20PM.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2010-12-2015%2C%2010%2021%2028%20PM.jpg


L287 | D1-4 Camlock Back Plate | For Sale Sydney Brisbane Melbourne Perth | Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery online at machineryhouse.com.au (http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L287)
http://images.machineryhouse.com.au/products/L287/Overview/Overview.jpg


Looks like i need a D1-4 chuck.


moving onto the motor connections
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2010-12-2015%2C%2010%2022%2004%20PM.jpg
This is the planned route. the plastic gromets will bolt onto the motor terminal box as well as the metal enclosure that i have for mounting the VFD. these actually clip onto the corrugated tube so that it cant pull out. This will ensure that if the wire gets caught and dragged by something (kids) that some of the load will be taken by the tubing. It also adds another layer of protection. Just need to work out if i have room in the terminal cover to bolt these in.
here you can also see the shielded VFD cable has arrived.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2010-12-2015%2C%2010%2022%2023%20PM.jpg

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:23 PM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2017-12-2015%2C%208%2057%2048%20AM.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2017-12-2015%2C%208%2058%2002%20AM.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2017-12-2015%2C%208%2058%2015%20AM.jpg

Ryan in Melbour
25th Dec 2015, 06:26 PM
Ok, as you have probably guessed, this is something i have been working on for a while, just copied and pasted from another forum.
this is where i am up to at the moment. Just waiting on parts for the new control box, then i will carry on as before.

let me know if you see anything glaringly obviously bad please.

Ryan

Uncle Al
25th Dec 2015, 09:08 PM
Great post. Watching with interest, hope you get everything back into working order without too many hassles.

Alan...

GuzziJohn
25th Dec 2015, 09:24 PM
Ok, as you have probably guessed, this is something i have been working on for a while, just copied and pasted from another forum.


Ryan

And there's me thinking you'd had a really busy Christmas day.:U

Seriously it looks like you making good progress.

John

Ryan in Melbour
7th Jan 2016, 09:23 AM
A few quick photos of a $15 gauge from ebay, probably should have expected it.


Rust inside face
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%206-01-2016%2C%2010%2036%2010%20PM.jpg


Lights up with 5v from the network router plug pack
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%206-01-2016%2C%2010%2036%2020%20PM.jpg




The back of the case comes of so I will be able to easily mount it by sandwiching it onto the dash/control panel. This is as far as the gauge disassembles. Any further disassembly is going to require irreversible prying and removal of the front bezel and glass.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%206-01-2016%2C%2010%2036%2029%20PM.jpg


Still waiting on the magnetic pic up to arrive.

Ryan in Melbour
12th Jan 2016, 10:42 PM
A little bit of progress.


Have fitted all the switches to the lid of the Jiffy box that i was going to use for the control panel, still needs a few labels but i'm happy with how its shaping up. Used a small center drill like you would in the tail stock of the lathe for the initial hole as i don't have a drill press. All holes with the exception of the RPM gauge were then opened up with some step drills. The gauge was then done using a 55mm hole saw, slowly, as the plastic would melt with high speeds.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-01-2016%2C%209%2009%2040%20PM.jpg


Next step was working out the wiring. Needed to know how many wires i need to run from the VFD control box to here, and then how many form here into the head stock of the lathe.


First draft, the bit crossed out I redid to make clearer. I am trying to pull the inputs to ground so that they are not floating when in use. The emergency stop switch should also pull everything to ground as well.
The switches are back lit and the gauge will need 12 volts also.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-01-2016%2C%209%2031%2024%20PM.jpg


the gauge and lights


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-01-2016%2C%209%2031%2033%20PM.jpg


So that's 10 cores to the VFD and power distribution box
3 cores for the tacho signal and 3 cores for the on/off leaver.


Looks like its going to be tight, not sure i will be able to make it neat, but will crack on regardless


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-01-2016%2C%209%2008%2059%20PM.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2012-01-2016%2C%209%2009%2009%20PM.jpg


I still need to assess where the cable glands are going to enter the back of the box and how much room that it going to take up. Hope its big enough.
If not i will have to hard wire it all back to the VFD box which sounds painful.


Ryan

Ryan in Melbour
4th Apr 2016, 12:04 AM
I have used a small flat pack metal cupboard from the Bunnings storage isle for enclosing everything. Was around $40 and has a lock on it to stop the kids getting into it and getting close to the 3 phase or changing the settings on the VFD.
This box has had a chipboard base added to allowed everything to be easily mounted and wired on the bench before it was installed in its final locatioin. I have also run 4 earth wires around the inside of the metal box to insure that it is all earthed, including the door.
It now resides under the splash guard on the lathe.
The Control and Indications wirring is 5 core trailer wire from Narva which Autobarn have on the roll. Thanks for the tip Allan. i put some heat shrink on the ends of the outer sheath after i had exposed the cores i needed.
the 12V plug pack is for the control panel lights and the RPM sensor and gauge. I had it lying around the shed.
Think the rest of the stuff came from Jacar.
There is room for a second VFD and control wiring in the box.




https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0287.JPG


Power on
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0283.JPG


And the new control panel
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0276.JPG


all working well when it comes to having the lathe running. Only things remaining are to mounting the magnets and sensor for the speed/rpm gauge and getting the coolant pump working - hence the second 240VAC spot on the GPO in the control box.


Regards Ryan

Ryan in Melbour
4th May 2016, 02:05 PM
Anyone have any ideas why I can't find a spanner to fit the nuts that rotate the cross slide.

They appear ear to be 3/8" 16tpi.

A 9/16 spanner doesn't fit and it's a little too sung in a 15mm.

Ryan

.RC.
4th May 2016, 02:42 PM
They will be 3/8 Whitworth nuts. Usually 15mm fits them OK. But sometimes not if the nuts are actually made to the proper size. The nominal nut A/F size should be 0.6" or 15.24mm

Ryan in Melbour
4th May 2016, 03:36 PM
So what size spanner will I be searching for?
5/8th too big, 9/16th to small

Gammaboy
4th May 2016, 03:50 PM
So what size spanner will I be searching for?
5/8th too big, 9/16th to small

3/8 Whitworth (Often marked as 3/8 BSW on the spanner). Unlikely you'll find them new at supercheap/bunnings etc - best bet is to pick them up at a flea market.

.RC.
4th May 2016, 03:56 PM
3/8 Whitworth (Often marked as 3/8 BSW on the spanner). Unlikely you'll find them new at supercheap/bunnings etc - best bet is to pick them up at a flea market.


Well yes and no. One marked 5/16W could fit as well as they changed bolt head sizes during WW1 I think to save on steel. We have spanners here marked 5/16W that fit 3/8W bolts.

Easier to buy a 15mm open ender and just grind/mill it a bit bigger.

pipeclay
4th May 2016, 04:26 PM
Or may be use a shifter.

Gammaboy
4th May 2016, 04:58 PM
Or may be use a shifter.


Maybe a set of these beauties?
362339

pipeclay
4th May 2016, 05:04 PM
Shifter would probably be easier.

franco
4th May 2016, 05:46 PM
I just had a quick look at ebay, and was surprised to see the number of Whitworth spanners available, many without the sizes shown. If your cross slide nuts are Whitworth/BS it is very likely that there will be other fasteners with Whitworth or BSF threads too, so buying a basic set like these would be good insurance, and could be added to if necessary:

Sidchrome Whitworth Open END Spanners X 3 "Like NEW" | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SIDCHROME-WHITWORTH-OPEN-END-SPANNERS-X-3-LIKE-NEW/222097589604?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D08cc057cadca461d904dbedfccf59f69%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D222097589604)

Frank

Ryan in Melbour
4th May 2016, 06:03 PM
Frank, I to had had a quick look at Ebay and noticed a few as well. Will have to have a good look. I suspect the tail stock will also be whitworth as well
The small domed headed fasteners on the belt cover seem to be an odd size as well, however they need a socket.


Maybe a set of these beauties?
362339

wow, lol, 2 levels of mechanical ineptitude

Ryan in Melbour
4th May 2016, 06:17 PM
So how does the naming convention work?

with metric and other imperial stuff it's the distance across the flats that defines the size.

This seems slightly different?

russ57
4th May 2016, 06:38 PM
The bolt diameter...

-Russell

Ryan in Melbour
4th May 2016, 07:24 PM
1.6 x bolt diameter ?

Michael G
4th May 2016, 09:26 PM
With metric and UN threads, the distance across the flats of the nut is the spanner size. With BSW and BSF, the spanner size is actually the thread size, so a 3/8 Whitworth spanner is actually 15.2 jaw to jaw but is called a 3/8 Whitworth because that's the size fastener it fits. Not a bad system if everyone did it that way but they do not. On the plus side from memory the 3/8 Whit. is the only one that needs the special spanner. Everything else is close enough that it will tolerate a standard spanner (whether metric or imperial).

Another option if you don't want to buy a special set of spanners is to take a smidge off the nut so that it is 15mm A/F. Most of the hardware chains had nuts like this for imperial threads as W/W sized hex bar was not common in China.

Michael

Ryan in Melbour
4th May 2016, 09:51 PM
Thanks Michael,

the reason i was asking is i'm trying to work out what size spanner to get for the tail stock. My tool kit currently does not go that large and i cant get a socket in there and there is not much thread to measure. I was going to measure across the flats and then backwards calculate what the thread size will be.

the 1.6 x Diameter seems very close for the 3/8th but apparently its not a set thing

tables are good though

Spanner Jaw Sizes (http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/~psc/spanner_jaw.html)

franco
5th May 2016, 01:09 AM
Ryan,

I can't find the original published formula for calculating the original Whitworth spanner dimensions, but I am fairly sure it was:

From 1/8W to 5/16W: 1.5D + 5/32 in.
From 3/8W to at least 7/8W: 1.5D + 3/16 in.

where D is the bolt diameter.

The 3/16 constant may increase again in larger sizes - not sure of this, and I do not have any big open ended Whitworth spanners to check.

Some of the later published Whitworh across the flats spanner sizes seem to vary slightly from this, but I checked all my old Whitworth spanners up to 7/8" several years ago to settle an argument, and they all seem to follow this formula.

The more modern British Standard Whitworth spanners are one standard size less than the original Whitworth ones, and now are identical to the other British Standard spanners which were used for British Standard Fine and British Standard Cycle. Many of mine are branded with a fractional bolt diameter followed by W on one side, and the next larger standard bolt diameter followed by BS on the other.

Frank.

eskimo
5th May 2016, 10:15 AM
15mmm is not always 15mm when it comes to sockets and spanners.

some 15mm are actually quite large and will fit whitworth really well. you just need to find one ....usually the cheap chinese crap

or invest in a set of whitworth spanners from ebay, gumtree etc or from OS.

Gammaboy
5th May 2016, 11:17 AM
It's all right Ryan - i dug into my 50's MARS lathe fully expecting it to be full of whitworth. Instead it's held together with UNCs, and appears to have metric crossfeed and compound screws, and TPI screw cutting. Bizzarre.

ES2
5th May 2016, 08:22 PM
Hi,
May I say that you are a lucky man! An ideal well made first lathe more than capable of many good projects.
Geoff

Steamwhisperer
5th May 2016, 10:04 PM
Took some pics of the BS/Whit. spanners I have at work.

Phil

362356 362357

pipeclay
6th May 2016, 09:13 AM
It might just be a forged or cast box type spanner rather than an O/E or Ring.

Ryan in Melbour
6th May 2016, 09:55 AM
The nuts on the compound slide look like 3/8W. Not sure if i can get a ring spanner on there as they are close to the compound and there is very little clearance.

The tail stock is a 5/8W and is shrouded under the barrel and in the bed a little. May be lucky enough to get a ring spanner on there.

i have a Whitworth thread gauge profile tool here somewhere, along with Metric and AF. I need to dig it out and confirm the teeth profiles i think.

Regards Ryan

Ryan in Melbour
9th May 2016, 11:53 PM
I have checked over the threads again

Whitworth gauge, 5/8th from the tail stock, 11TPI at 55°

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0316.JPG

SAE imperial gauge - also at 11 TPI
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0320.JPG


Who's a lucky boy then. Very happy with this lot. Thanks Simon.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0324.JPG

Anyone have any ideas on repairing the thread on the stud pictured?
I'm looking for a whitworth thread file but am not having much luck. Would be nice to be able to buy one locally.

I also had to move the lathe to make room for this, so its not quiet back together again. you should be able to make out that there is 3 lots of wires on top of the head. the one near the draw bar is the spindle speed sensor, the one lot on the side of the motor are the 3 phase connections for the motor and the 3rd lot on top of the motor are for a auxiliary cooling fan that blows air over the motor 100% of the time the motor is on. its also controlled by a VFD and only has 2 speeds on the gear box. loving it so far.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Milling%20Machine/Arrival030516/DSC_0303.JPG

Regards Ryan

franco
15th May 2016, 05:32 PM
scottyd,

:photo3: scottyd (http://metalworkforums.com/members/86199-scottyd) Wants picture(s) for this post ( post 36)

Have a look at: http://metalworkforums.com/f65/t190700-spanner-sizes?highlight=whitworth+spanners

Mike48's Post No. 61, second and third photos of his 11/16BS or 5/8 Whitworth spanner are probably clearer than I could produce. This is how my open enders are marked with the Whitworth size on one side, and if you turn the spanner over the same end is marked with the BS size on the other side. The rings, sockets and tube spanners only have the Whitworth sizes marked though.

Does this answer your query?

Frank.

jhovel
16th May 2016, 01:59 AM
....
wow, lol, 2 levels of mechanical ineptitude

Have another look at the picture.
THey are now available in Australia (I bought my pair in Germany). They are Knipex NUT pliers. The jaws move only parallel and do not mark the nuts at all. They have a huge range and hold dead solid. Much better tool than shifters.
They are also expensive....
Would not be without them. Brilliant for rounded off nuts as well.

YBAF
16th May 2016, 02:32 PM
Have another look at the picture.
THey are now available in Australia (I bought my pair in Germany). They are Knipex NUT pliers. The jaws move only parallel and do not mark the nuts at all. They have a huge range and hold dead solid. Much better tool than shifters.
They are also expensive....
Would not be without them. Brilliant for rounded off nuts as well.

A tool that is new to me so had a look-see. Took some finding in the Knipex catalogue. Two sizes aparently.
KNIPEX - The Pliers Company. - Products (http://www.knipex.com/index.php?id=1216&L=1&page=group_detail&parentID=1368&groupID=2175)

Ryan in Melbour
16th May 2016, 05:37 PM
upon closer inspection, they are indeed very clever.

initially, I viewed Gamaboys post on the phone and just saw multigrips and thought he was having a lend.
sorry about that.

Ryan in Melbour
17th May 2016, 08:47 AM
in the process of moving the lathe for the mill, and putting it back together I became curious about this plate
a little bit of a rub with the sheltie and it became a little bit more legible.

1.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2014-05-2016%2C%208%2048%2032%20PM.jpg

which begged the question, where is the pump they were talking about?

After a bit of prodding and levering with a screwdriver I located this on the right hand side of the carriage. it was stuck in the closed position as it had been painted over when the green pain had been applied.
A bit more clearning with sheltie and a rub with some 600 wet and dry and its come back to this. Still works to and makes a noticeable difference to the smoothness of the lathe.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2014-05-2016%2C%208%2049%2014%20PM.jpg

sounds a bit "squelchy" like its low on oil. I have located the filler cap as well, which was also painted over with the horrid green pain. it to has polished up nicely.
unsurprisingly it also has a Whitworth sized thread/head on it.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/Photo%2014-05-2016%2C%208%2048%2018%20PM.jpg

Any tips for oil to put in it?
It lubricates the auto feed on the cross slid as well as the beads I think. haven't seen this sort of thing on the newer lathes. This thing keeps surprising me.

I think I also need to get something for the geared head on the mill. would be handy if I could use the same thing.

Michael G
17th May 2016, 07:26 PM
Most people seem to use either hydraulic oil or way oil. Look at the specs for your mill oil and see whether it has viscosity of SAE 30 at 100F (roughly 38 degrees C - say 40 degrees C). You may have to resort to the web or contact a supplier. I think various people have pointed out that places like Supercheap have 4l bottles of hydraulic oil so buying one of those should not be a drama if your mill oil is not the same.

Michael

.RC.
20th May 2016, 07:40 PM
I think if you start looking for an SAE grade you will end up with engine oil as that and car gearbox oil is where SAE is pretty much only used these days.

ISO68 is for want of a better term the "metric" equivalent of SAE30 and if you were looking for hydraulic type oils the container will more likely have the ISO grade on it rather then SAE.

ISO46 which is the next thinner grade would also do OK as well.

That is my opinion anyway :)

Ryan in Melbour
20th May 2016, 10:42 PM
Thanks Gents.

i see that Hare and Forbes as well as Super cheep are selling this stuff

Superdraulic Range ISO 22, 32, 46, 68, 100, 150 & 220 - Gulf Western Oil - Gulf Western Oil (http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/product/superdraulic-range-iso-22-32-46-68-100-150-220/)

Ryan in Melbour
20th May 2016, 10:54 PM
As the superdrullic stuff seems to be rated at the 100F/40c temp, it looks like something around the 46-68 range would be fine if i am to meet the spec listed on that plate on the carriage
Engine oil – viscosity table and viscosity chart (http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/engine-oil/#c1336)


http://www.viscopedia.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_Graph_Oil_LM_SAE_30_1024_9d8aa1cae9.png

Ryan in Melbour
31st May 2016, 11:04 PM
Oil now in gear box and sight glass is happy.


so i have pulled one of the jaws out of the 4th jaw, to see if there is any possibilities.


Fairly normal, was thinking I could make one.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0337.JPG


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0338.JPG


Then I see this bit, any idea how that thread would be cut?


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0347.JPG


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0351.JPG


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0342.JPG


Ryan

KBs PensNmore
31st May 2016, 11:18 PM
Ryan, the way that I'd do the thread is to make the block long enough so that you'd get 2 out of a block, and cut the thread in it, when you're done, cut it into the size required. Making a cutting tool wouldn't be a problem, as you can line the tool up against it to check.
Kryn

Ryan in Melbour
31st May 2016, 11:39 PM
Good one, i like it, knowing my skill levels, I might need a few more practice goes.
I better make sure i have enough spare for a 3rd and 4th try :)

Ryan in Melbour
8th Jun 2016, 03:03 PM
Quick change tool posts…..

Im in need of some tooling to go into the lathe and am considering getting a quick change tool post now, so that anything I buy will be compatible with it. So I am after advice on this subject.
This is the one I was thinking about
L292 | QA-140 Quick Change Toolpost | For Sale Sydney Brisbane Melbourne Perth | Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery online at machineryhouse.com.au (http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L292)


http://images.machineryhouse.com.au/products/L292/700/Main.jpg
the measurements for my lathe are
B = 8.5mm
C = 47.33mm
D = 94.65mm (this is also the width of the compound slide)
h = 62.39mm
H = 35.5mm
The stud that the current tool post mounts on has a flange at the base 21.95mm diameter and 4.55mm high, then the main body is 18.65mm and is 85mm high and threaded to ¾ Whitworth (10TPI). This will obviously need some work and will likely need a new stud made or the existing one turned down as the QTP has a bore of 16mm. Im fairly certain that the mount into the compound will also be ¾ whitworth as well.

T = The tool thickness on my existing post is 25.5mm however part of this is above the centre height so its not directly relevant to the selection criteria.

I had a look at the unit at H&F yesterday, it looks like material could easily be taken off the bottom of the QTP, easily 3mm, the centre for the stud might even be able to be bored out.

Is this a dumb idea, is that style of tool post ok?

its odd that the H&F range of tool posts jumps from 16mm tooling and goes straight to 25mm, missing the 20mm range all together.
Thoughts please

Ryan

country kid
13th Jun 2016, 09:02 PM
Ryan; have you got some datum setting for your danfoss VFD?

Ryan in Melbour
14th Jun 2016, 11:29 AM
I know I changed some of the bits. I will go through it and write it all down and then you can tell me what I have done wrong

country kid
14th Jun 2016, 01:20 PM
I know I changed some of the bits. I will go through it and write it all down and then you can tell me what I have done wrong

Mine is just throwing a W13 (Over Voltage) and W12 (Over Torque Limit) Code, i get a hellish squeal from the VFD and thats about it. no movement in the shaft.

Ryan in Melbour
14th Jun 2016, 02:38 PM
the bits I changed were mainly for tuning.
I spoke to direct automation when I was ordering mine, told them the motor and they advised the drive and shipped it out to me. ordered Wednesday arvo, they dispatched from Brisbane and I had it on my desk Thursday morning in Melbourne.
Direct Automation Pty Ltd (http://www.directautomation.com.au/)


I had to scratch my head for a bit to work out how to wire the motor so that it was in Delta and so that I had the correct ends connected to each other. after that it was basically just a case of plugging it in and hitting the switch and it ran first go.

mine will squeal if I have the potentiometer turned way down for very slow speed and I obviously get no motor speed. on the HM53VG mill the motor wont go as slow as the lathe so I think it has a speed limiting resistor or setting somewhere.

by default mine was configured to run of the controls and potentiometer on the front panel and not the ones I had wired in, so make sure you have the pot turned up.

I think I had to change the bits for telling it which switches I had connected as well as the carrier frequency to try and make it run quieter. Other than that not much.

Direct Automation were a big help though.

country kid
15th Jun 2016, 11:40 AM
Not a bad idea Ryan;

Gave the guys at Mircomax a call, Paul was usefull and suggested that the alarm it is raising is W13 - %200 over current, and W12 - %200 over torque limit.

So with that in mind he suggested that the B grade insulation used in the 70's probably inst going to stand up to the variance in frequency.

Time to get the motor rewound i think.

Ryan in Melbour
15th Jun 2016, 02:22 PM
I have no idea where you would get supplies to re-wind a motor. Doesn't look to hard though.

country kid
15th Jun 2016, 02:56 PM
I was just going to have some one do it, it looks fairly simple, but if you got it wrong i can only imagine! im a bit lost in it at the moment, any motor that is in Y should be able to run of 240v in Delta, so, i might have to look closer for a short, but the ohm meter measures equal resistance across all the coils and no leak between coils or to earth. So, i have no idea why the VFD wont run it, however, not having the name plate data to work of makes it increasingly difficult.

Ryan in Melbour
15th Jun 2016, 04:53 PM
When you are doing the conversion from Star to Delta at the motor connections, can you get the bridging wrong so that it won’t run or will it just result in the motor turning in the opposite direction?

I had no name plate data either to help when it came to working out the connections. So they only way I could work it out was to label each of the slots in the armature where the windings are and work out which way each of the windings ran. I think from memory I had 48 slot – ie each winding/phase uses 16 of the slots spread evenly around the armature frame. For each of the windings/phase it is further split into groups to give the number of poles that the motor has and its synchronous speed at 50Hz.

In my case my motor was ~1400 rating and this corresponds to a 4 pole motor, ie 2 north poles and 2 south poles with each pole being orientated 90 degrees around the frame .
I then sketched out how the windings looped through the frame. Remembering the right/left hand grip rules from physics/electrical theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming%27s_left-hand_rule_for_motors

if you think of north poles as slots in your armature where the winding goes into the motor assuming you are starting from and end, and then a south pole as ones where the windings come up and out from the frame you should be able to follow the path of the winding all the way around the frame from 1 end of the winding to the other.

I think I had a link a few pages back showing a vid where a bloke was winding a motor for an electric car.
[edited to add, -post #8 back on the second page of the thread]

country kid
15th Jun 2016, 10:59 PM
that makes sense, obviously the first winding is then V1, U1, W1 Respectively? I have found the individual coil using continuity, so obviously they need to be in the correct order (Phased properly if you will) for the motor to run properly. With that in mind i will go and have another look, picked up some proper silicon coated wire today so i will solder the new leads on, nothing is leaking to ground, nothing is leaking between coils

Ryan in Melbour
21st Jul 2016, 12:36 AM
Quick change tool posts…..

Im in need of some tooling to go into the lathe and am considering getting a quick change tool post now, so that anything I buy will be compatible with it. So I am after advice on this subject.
This is the one I was thinking about
L292 | QA-140 Quick Change Toolpost | For Sale Sydney Brisbane Melbourne Perth | Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery online at machineryhouse.com.au (http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L292)


http://images.machineryhouse.com.au/products/L292/700/Main.jpg
the measurements for my lathe are
B = 8.5mm
C = 47.33mm
D = 94.65mm (this is also the width of the compound slide)
h = 62.39mm
H = 35.5mm
The stud that the current tool post mounts on has a flange at the base 21.95mm diameter and 4.55mm high, then the main body is 18.65mm and is 85mm high and threaded to ¾ Whitworth (10TPI). This will obviously need some work and will likely need a new stud made or the existing one turned down as the QTP has a bore of 16mm. Im fairly certain that the mount into the compound will also be ¾ whitworth as well.

T = The tool thickness on my existing post is 25.5mm however part of this is above the centre height so its not directly relevant to the selection criteria.

I had a look at the unit at H&F yesterday, it looks like material could easily be taken off the bottom of the QTP, easily 3mm, the centre for the stud might even be able to be bored out.

Is this a dumb idea, is that style of tool post ok?

its odd that the H&F range of tool posts jumps from 16mm tooling and goes straight to 25mm, missing the 20mm range all together.
Thoughts please

Ryan

OK, i have been looking around and it looks like i am after the "CXA" sized tool post.and with CTC being back i may have a solution!
(the other sizes are AXA, BXA and DXA with A being smallest and D largest)

QUICK CHANGE TOOLPOST SET (6PCS) - WEDGE TYPE #L137 | CTC Tools (http://www.ctctools.biz/quick-change-toolpost-set-6pcs-wedge-type-l137/?setCurrencyId=4)

http://www.ctcengineering.hk/CTC%20Tools/Images/Product%20Photos/L137_ill.jpg

Im looking at the 200-300 version. most things look ok i think. The part i'm not sure on is getting the tool centre height. on my lathe, from the top of the compound slide to the centre it is ~35.5mm. Assuming i have the tool holder all the way down with the 300 version and i am using 20mm tooling the lowest i would get would be measurement "A" on the tool holders of 39.1mm or +3.6mm above centre

if i subtract the dimension "B" 19.05 from "A" = 39.10 i get the thickness of the bottom ledge of the tool holder = 20.05mm. If i mill this down by the 3.6mm i need to get to centre height i'm still at 16.45mm which is greater than the same measurement for the next model down ("A" 28.57mm - "B" 15.87mm = 12.7mm for reference).

The next model down will easily do it, but then its smaller all over and is unlikely to clear the width of the compound slide width, ie tool may not be out far enough to clear edges, or will have excessive overhang.

Ryan

pipeclay
21st Jul 2016, 09:19 AM
I would suggest the BXA as a more suitable size.

If you already have 20mm shank tools they don't look like they will fit the CXA, you would need to remove something from the top or bottom.

Ryan in Melbour
21st Jul 2016, 02:52 PM
I don't have tools yet.
the CXA will take up to 3/4" (19.05mm) tools.

putting the next size down tooling, which I think is 16mm, into a CXA would get me within 0.6mm of centre height.

do these things need to have the tool holder roughly on centre to lock up correctly? is it different if its a wedge or a piston type?

pipeclay
21st Jul 2016, 04:53 PM
Why do you think you need the CXA.

For general smaller work that you would find in a home workshop either style of holder in my opinion would be suitable,if one was cheaper than the other I would probably choose the cheaper.

From my experience I have found holders from a wedge will fit a piston but not always the other way round.

You haven't yet purchased tooling so your choice of size post is not tool dependent.

It would be better to have the majority of the tool holder against the tool post ( at least 51%.

Ryan in Melbour
21st Jul 2016, 06:17 PM
Why do you think you need the CXA.

this was my thinking.
D = 94.65mm (this is also the width of the compound slide)

i.e. the current tool post is 94.65mm square and then the tool needs to stick out from there.
anything smaller could result in the compound slide to contact the work before the tool unless I stick the tool out a fair way. Maybe I need to think through the dimensions some more.

pipeclay
21st Jul 2016, 06:51 PM
The tool posts are designed to better suit lathe swings,yours would be around 13" I would think,the BXA falls into this range,the CXA is at the start of that swing.

You do realise that the tool post does not have to cover your compound totally to work correctly.

Do you also realise that the tool holder will make the overall width of the tool post wider by may be 1 1/2", then the tool cutting edge is generally out side of the tool holder.

If you think you may touch the compound you should just concentrate on what you will be doing,even doing a dry run before starting a job to make sure that everything is going to clear.

Ryan in Melbour
26th Oct 2016, 09:31 PM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0609.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0610.JPG

Ryan in Melbour
26th Oct 2016, 09:33 PM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0613.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0617.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3645721/Lathe/DSC_0620.JPG