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neksmerj
11th Nov 2015, 10:48 PM
Any of you fellas know a cheap source for screw in type 240V led globes?

Some months ago, Aldi were selling them for about $12 ea, so I bought two. Brand LIFETEC 7.5W 600 lm 2700K

They were fantastic, so much so, that when I went back for more, they were sold out.

I have a feeling they only offer them once a year, bugger.

On the subject of globes, after the last lot of rain, I noticed my under cover balcony light was on. It's two way switched from inside and outside near the front gate.

From inside I switched it off, it blinked and came on again. I tried the switch near the front gate, same story.

What can possibly go wrong with two way switching? All I can think of is a faulty switch, and probably the one outside in the weather.

Any clues?

Ken

bollie7
12th Nov 2015, 07:52 AM
Ken
Just do a google search for Edison Screw LED light bulbs australia or similar. There are a lot of people selling them now and at lower prices than $12 each. - Depends on what size you are after as well.
Re your outside light. I'm not an eleco but if it was mine, I'd be getting the outside switch checked out first.

peter

Oldneweng
12th Nov 2015, 08:02 AM
For cheap LED globes try EBay.

LED Light Bulb 10 Watt Daylight 840 Lumens Edison Screw Fitting E27 Globe GLS | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Led-light-bulb-10-watt-daylight-840-lumens-edison-screw-fitting-E27-globe-gls-/201406168578?hash=item2ee4be3e02:g:~KwAAOSw~gRVzDsE)

Litech 10 watt 840 Lm $9.95 + $7.50 postage. Additional items free.

Are you actually looking for screw in type, Edison Screw (E27) or normal bayonet (B22) fitting?

B22 globes can be had for $3.00 or less.

Dean

BobL
12th Nov 2015, 09:43 AM
I just bought another 10 18W LED fluoro tubes from the eBay.
$10 each when you buy 10 tubes, includes delivery.

One half of one of the 10 tubes I bought earlier this year stopped working after about 6 months .
I tried reversing the tube and it still did not light up.
I contacted the seller and they said to send a photo of the half working tube.
http://metalworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=359503&stc=1
A few days later before I got around to downloading the photo from the camera the tube started working again and has been working ever since then.

Now all my 13 fluoros in the shed and the 5 in the house are all on LEDs and I have a couple of spares.
One of the best things is the instant ON, The fluoro in the bathroom was really giving me the pips with its flick-flick-flick-flick before coming on.

neksmerj
12th Nov 2015, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the info re LED globes.

Now I'm stuffed re two way switching. I just spent 4 hours installing a new twin slider water proof enclosure down near the front gate, in order to fix my two way switching problem.

To reiterate, the two way switching controls two lights, and I can't turn them off from either switch.

Replacing the switch enclosure assembly solved nothing, still can't turn the lights off.

Went inside and replaced the other switch, SHOCK, horror gasp, still can't turn the lights off.

What else can be wrong. For now I've taken the globes out.

The wiring has never been disturbed for the last 15 years.

Ken


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alexm1
12th Nov 2015, 09:05 PM
Thanks for the info re LED globes.

Now I'm stuffed re two way switching. I just spent 4 hours installing a new twin slider water proof enclosure down near the front gate, in order to fix my two way switching problem.

To reiterate, the two way switching controls two lights, and I can't turn them off from either switch.

Replacing the switch enclosure assembly solved nothing, still can't turn the lights off.

Went inside and replaced the other switch, shock, horror gasp, still can't turn the lights off.

What else can be wrong. For now I've taken the globes out.

The wiring has never been disturbed for the last 15 years.

Ken

Ken, hard to diagnose remotely but start with the obvious. I assume both switch assemblies and housings were dry? Have you removed the lights, the light fitting and checked for contamination, water or damp material?
If all that is clear the most likely problem is a short in the twin wires that bridge between the two switches, if they are shorted then the light will be on regardless of switch position.
Another thought is that the rain may be a furphy, did anything else happen, any building work, what chance a nail or screw was driven through the wires?

Master Splinter
12th Nov 2015, 09:59 PM
I'm presuming you....err the sparky... has the wiring correct?

https://www.dlsweb.rmit.edu.au/toolbox/electrotech/toolbox1204/resources/04diagrams/04lighting/03_2way_sw.htm

neksmerj
12th Nov 2015, 10:28 PM
MS,

What's got me stonkered, is that my two way switching set up has been working fine for the last fifteen years, none of the wiring has been fiddled with.

One thing I did forget is that there is a third globe wired in. It's one of those stupid coiled fluorescent globes. I forgot about this because sometimes it comes on, sometimes it doesn't, mostly it does not come on.

I'm just wondering whether if the globe is crook, it could effect my predicament.

Thanks for the schematic diagram, I didn't really know how two way switching was done.

If something has really, really gone wrong with the wiring, I'm gunna be buggered. All the wiring is in the ceiling space, and I have a flat roof.

Ken

Master Splinter
12th Nov 2015, 11:33 PM
In that case, this is where you start simplifying things with the aid of a multimeter and start diagramming out the circuit. Just sit there and verify where the power comes in, and work forward from there. No real rocket science, just check and verify all the connections.

The intermittent bulb would be the first place I'd look, suspecting loose wiring or spider/gecko/rodent bridging as a possible cause for its intermittent-ness.

In a worst case scenario, you can hopefully use the old wiring as a pull-through for new wiring!

eskimo
13th Nov 2015, 08:09 AM
They are two way switch's and not done by relays?. eg what they call a switch multiplier?

neksmerj
13th Nov 2015, 09:58 PM
MS,

I removed the 3rd globe hoping for a positive result, no luck.

Tomorrow I'll go and buy one of those insulated screw drivers with the neon light inside, and start poking around.

Any dangers using those screw drivers?

Ken

Master Splinter
13th Nov 2015, 11:03 PM
The best use for those screw driver thingies is testing the continuity of the bottom of your trash can.

The following YouTube video explains why...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLAJ-keFmpk

neksmerj
13th Nov 2015, 11:40 PM
MS, struth, glad I asked the question. Reckon I'll use my multimeter.

Thanks for the tip.

Ken

RayG
14th Nov 2015, 11:20 AM
You have a short somewhere between your two loop wires. First you need to isolate the circuit from mains,
You must cut the power at the switchboard BEFORE doing anything.
Then and only then, should you go looking for the short cct.


The short cct will be between wires 1 and 2, with those shorted neither switch will be able break the cct to turn the light off.
https://www.dlsweb.rmit.edu.au/toolbox/electrotech/toolbox1204/resources/04diagrams/04lighting/images/two_way_light_diag.gif

Ray

neksmerj
14th Nov 2015, 01:46 PM
Thanks RayG,

Thanks for your advice.

If there is a short between the two loop wires, then I'm tin fruited.

I'm pretty sure the wiring is in my roof space, and it's a flat roof with about 100mm of head room.

It's really only the balcony light that I miss the most, so might have to rig up an overhead cord pull switch just to turn that light on and off.

Ken

neksmerj
14th Nov 2015, 10:51 PM
In my post above, I suggested putting in a cord pull switch for the balcony light, then thought, maybe I can disconnect one of the wires in the lounge room switch to achieve the same thing.

Attached is a diagram of the back of the lounge room switch. The wire colours don't seem right to me. I expected red to connect to the top terminal, with whites on either side.

In any case, which wire do I disconnect to get one way switching?

Ken

RayG
15th Nov 2015, 10:47 AM
Disconnect one side of the switch, depending on if you like up for on, or down for on. Bypass the switch at the other end.

But, why not locate and fix the short cct? Did you confirm that it was shorted?
There is a chance it could be dangerous, perhaps even a potential fire hazard. I strongly recommend you get an electrician on the job.

Ray

eskimo
15th Nov 2015, 12:47 PM
going by the the way that switch diagram is drawn the red wire should go to terminal where the top white is located.
359552
the red wire should be active and needs to go to the common of the switch, the white wires go from 1&2 to 1&2 of the other switch.

neksmerj
15th Nov 2015, 01:49 PM
RayG,

referring to my switch sketch, where do I test for a short?

Eskimo, I'm inclined to agree with your suggestion.

I'm on a pension, and don't reckon I can afford a sparky, reckon it could be a drawn out exercise.

Ken

RayG
15th Nov 2015, 02:38 PM
RayG,

referring to my switch sketch, where do I test for a short?

Eskimo, I'm inclined to agree with your suggestion.

I'm on a pension, and don't reckon I can afford a sparky, reckon it could be a drawn out exercise.

Ken

Eskimo, you might be right, but 2 way switches are often wired with red/white tps between the switches... rather than white/white tps?. Plus, if the red were active then the way Ken shows it wired the switches could break the circuit turning light off, so I concluded that red is probably not the supply active. Does the red and white go into a single white plastic sheath? Take a picture if you don't know what I'm on about.



To test for a short, turn off the power at the main switchboard, disconnect the loop wires at the switches, both ends, and then use the continuity test function on your multimeter to measure between the loop wires, which I think are the red and white.



Ray

I have to say, you really should get an electrician, I don't know what value you place on you house and your life, but don't be a dead cheapskate.

neksmerj
15th Nov 2015, 04:34 PM
RayG,

The switch diagram will show you the wiring at the lounge room switch.

With power off, I get a reading from centre to left, centre to right and left to right terminals.

They are not full scale deflections and measured without disconnecting any wires.

Ken

RayG
15th Nov 2015, 04:41 PM
RayG,

The switch diagram will show you the wiring at the lounge room switch.

With power off, I get a reading from centre to left, centre to right and left to right terminals.

They are not full scale deflections and measured without disconnecting any wires.

Ken


Do it again, this time disconnect the wires from the switches at both ends. Otherwise you won't know for sure if you are measuring the wires or something else.

Make sure you are measuring continuity, or ohms. Make a note of the readings.

Ray

neksmerj
15th Nov 2015, 06:22 PM
RayG and eskimo,

I have at least achieved one way switching by disconnecting one of the white wires, and that will do. Not the white wire on common, the other one.

So far no smoke.

Ken

Stustoys
15th Nov 2015, 06:31 PM
I have at least achieved one way switching by disconnecting one of the white wires, and that will do. Not the white wire on common, the other one.

Hi Ken,

Do both switches turn the light on and off?*

Stuart

*my "guess" was a stuffed switch. If disconnecting one of the white wires "fixes" things it would seem that the two white wires arent shorted, one of the switches must be......... I think...... which is worth nothing.

RayG
15th Nov 2015, 06:45 PM
Hi Ken,

Do both switches turn the light on and off?*

Stuart

*my "guess" was a stuffed switch. If disconnecting one of the white wires "fixes" things it would seem that the two white wires arent shorted, one of the switches must be......... I think...... which is worth nothing.

Nope, the wires could still be shorted. Disconnecting one wire just means you can remove the active circuit at one end, so it just becomes a one way on/off cct,

Ken, did you measure for continuity between the loop wires, (red and white) or not?

Ray

Stustoys
15th Nov 2015, 06:57 PM
Nope, the wires could still be shorted. Disconnecting one wire just means you can remove the active circuit at one end, so it just becomes a one way on/off cct,

Shows that I was right about what my guess was worth ;)

But it would mean only one switch would work.... right? If both switches work....wont that take some explaining?

Stuart

p.s. I'll sit and watch now.

neksmerj
15th Nov 2015, 07:15 PM
RayG, I did not measure the continuity, too difficult. The wires to the switch at the front gate are a bit short for good access, and there are many cables.

The lounge room switch switches the balcony light and the front gate light on and off. The front gate switch has no effect except for a slight flicker when switching.

Stu, my first reaction was a faulty switch so replaced both of them to no avail.

Thanks gents for all your help, I'm happy to leave it one way switched for now. At least I have light out on the balcony when sipping on a glass of medicine and hand feeding my possums.

Talking about possums, some of my ceiling down lights had been popped out of the plaster, and I did suspect possums. Maybe they did some damage. They are locked out of the roof space now.

Ken

RayG
15th Nov 2015, 07:43 PM
Shows that I was right about what my guess was worth ;)

But it would mean only one switch would work.... right? If both switches work....wont that take some explaining?

Stuart

p.s. I'll sit and watch now.

Correct, one switch will turn the light on and off, the other switch will do nothing.

Having shorted wires in a flat roofed house is a recipe for fire. But, what do I know... :)

Ray

neksmerj
15th Nov 2015, 11:54 PM
Looks like I'm gunna need a sparkie after all.

After several hours my balcony light and front gate light started flickering off and on, so turned it off.

Something is seriously wrong.

Ken

edit,

before calling in a sparkie, I'm going to carefully check the wiring to each lamp holder, hopefully I find a loose wire somewhere.

alexm1
16th Nov 2015, 06:47 AM
You would be wise to get a sparky, you are risking your insurance and you are making your actions very public. Any claim you make could be rejected.

eskimo
16th Nov 2015, 08:19 AM
Ken...can you draw a diag and colour code for the other switch?...i am suspecting the other switch may have the incoming mains active which will explain what Ray says above about running red and white between the two switch's.

also draw wiring/colour code at lamp holder/s

eskimo
16th Nov 2015, 08:36 AM
After several hours my balcony light and front gate light started flickering off and on, so turned it off.



check the wiring to each lamp holder, hopefully I find a loose wire somewhere.

after re-reading all of this I suspect that this, I suspect you may have a loose/broken wire somewhere.

Check with POWER OFF

neksmerj
17th Nov 2015, 06:43 PM
eskimo and RayG,

Spent the afternoon checking out each lamp holder looking for loose or damaged wiring and found nothing.

The light fitting over the balcony looks a bit sus. It's a recessed metal fitting with no earth connected. I don't under stand the wiring connections to this.

Attached is an overall wiring diagram, what a mess.

Ken

zathras
17th Nov 2015, 07:25 PM
Looking at the balcony light fitting, I'm thinking the red wire is perhaps an active, the black being the neutral. Hence the light would always stay on.

The light fitting usually have a binding post position (like the light switches do). At the light fitting, try moving the red to the dead end binding post position.
That would then allow the single white to be the double switched line, with the switched active being sourced via the two switches instead....

neksmerj
17th Nov 2015, 08:31 PM
zathras,

in effect that's what I've done, but at the switch, to achieve one way switching.

My big problem was the light was flickering off and on two hours after turning it on. Since mucking around with the three lamp holders, and blowing out cobwebs and dirt etc, I seem to have a steady light.

I'll know in a little while if I've succeeded, albeit one way switching.

Ken

RayG
17th Nov 2015, 08:48 PM
That circuit looks to be fine as is, the bottom 3 core is mains in, the middle is garage light out, looks like it might be a fluro, since its got 3 core tps with earth, the top red/white would go to the switch at the other end of the two way cct.

I still think your problem is a short cct between the red and white wires in the two core tps that runs between the switches. The easy fix would be to re-run that cable, but I suspect there is mechanical damage somewhere along the cable run.

Ray

neksmerj
17th Nov 2015, 09:31 PM
Hi Ray,

You may well be correct, but there is no way of re-running that cable without ripping up half the metal tray roofing, and that aint gunna happen.

The roofing is old fashioned where the ribs are crimped together. Pulling the trays apart may be possible, but getting them back down and engaging again is impossible.

Thanks for your help.

So far, the balcony light has not missed a beat. I've pulled the wiring out of the light fitting. and it's just dangling down in the breeze. Have the bonus of far more light.

Dunno how to rotate the image after inserting, sorry.

Ken

eskimo
18th Nov 2015, 08:06 AM
That circuit looks to be fine as is, the bottom 3 core is mains in, the middle is garage light out, looks like it might be a fluro, since its got 3 core tps with earth, the top red/white would go to the switch at the other end of the two way cct.

I still think your problem is a short cct between the red and white wires in the two core tps that runs between the switches. The easy fix would be to re-run that cable, but I suspect there is mechanical damage somewhere along the cable run.

Ray

I agree Ray..it should work as is.

Firstly Ken, which red wire did you disconnect ..the one at the living room switch , terminal 1?...was this before you blew out the cobwebs? ( i am guessing you can put it back in and all will work leading to the fact that debris or poor connection was the culprit)

However if it still doesnt work after you put that wire back and to confirm Ray's diagnosis, check for continuity between terminals 1 & 2 as follows.( If its positive it has a short circuit. If not then we have another problem.)

Disconnect Power
Remove red and white wires from one of the 2 way switches, and measure for continuity across those wires.....you should not get a resistance reading.
Also measure across terminals 1&2 of that switch...you should not get a reading.

If you get a reading across those wires, disconnect the red and white at terminals 1&2 of other switch, and measure across them, (making sure the other ends are not shorting to each other or anything else)....you should not get a reading. If you DO get a reading, you have a short across those wires somewhere.

Check across terminals 1&2 of that switch....you should not get a reading.

If any of the switch's gives a reading across 1 & 2, then the problem is in that switch....could be dirt etc etc but could also be faulty mechanism.

After you have done all of this and no faults found, put it all back together and turn on power and try.

The red wire spoken about by Zathras at the lamp holder is probably the common switch wire to loop in the other lamp holder/s?
Ken, can you also confirm that you do have more than one lamp in the 2 way switching circuit.

Are the black wires on garage light switch at same location as front gate and readily accessible?...with power on can you check if the red wires on L of the front gate switch is live? by measuring from L to black or even to a good earth.... would be nice to know what they are about?????. I have no idea why any one would bring 2 single reds back to a switch and sick them in the loop terminal....dead or alive...spares maybe

(ps...when I first looked at last sketch Ken I thought you were leading us up the path as I began to think we had 3 way switching...thats when things become interesting...add another switch or 2 or 3 to make it 3/4/5 way and wow!)

jhovel
18th Nov 2015, 07:24 PM
Ken,
You seemed to ask advice on a very basic and straightfroward electrical problem - your life and house may depend on fixing it properly.
You were given very straightforward advice from one of most knowledgable people on things electrical I have the pleasure of knowing. Ray gets invited to design electrical/electronic things around the world.
Why oh why don't you just accept his help and follow his detailed instructions, instead of doing something completely different???? I don't get it..... you are a smart man, but clearly not savvy in electrickery.

neksmerj
18th Nov 2015, 11:41 PM
Joe, I've listened to advice, and taken it all in.

I don't have the expertise nor qualifications to tackle this job.

My balcony light started flickering again tonight, but it only starts this behavior two to three hours after being turned on.

I can only surmise that as a cable heats up, it opens and closes a break in the cable.

What else could it be?

Time for a sparkie.

Ken

Oldneweng
19th Nov 2015, 10:21 AM
Hi Ray,

You may well be correct, but there is no way of re-running that cable without ripping up half the metal tray roofing, and that aint gunna happen.

The roofing is old fashioned where the ribs are crimped together. Pulling the trays apart may be possible, but getting them back down and engaging again is impossible.

Thanks for your help.

So far, the balcony light has not missed a beat. I've pulled the wiring out of the light fitting. and it's just dangling down in the breeze. Have the bonus of far more light.

Dunno how to rotate the image after inserting, sorry.

Ken

Ken, to rotate pictures I use a small program called Irfanview. It is fast, simple and works great. Rotating your picture in Irfanview is a dead easy process. Drag and drop the picture file to load it, and press the "R" key for Rotate Right.

I just copied and pasted your pic, then rotated it using this method. There are normal menus as well.

359632

Just a suggestion for the future. I have been using this program for about 20 years. It also has some powerful batch capabilities.

Dean

RayG
19th Nov 2015, 10:44 AM
Ken,
You seemed to ask advice on a very basic and straightfroward electrical problem - your life and house may depend on fixing it properly.
You were given very straightforward advice from one of most knowledgable people on things electrical I have the pleasure of knowing. Ray gets invited to design electrical/electronic things around the world.
Why oh why don't you just accept his help and follow his detailed instructions, instead of doing something completely different???? I don't get it..... you are a smart man, but clearly not savvy in electrickery.

Thanks for the kind words Joe, I'm more at home with electronics than troubleshooting household wiring by remote control. :)
Ken is finally on the right track and getting an electrician on the job, the fire risk alone should be more than enough justification to take these sort of problems seriously.

Ken,

Let us know how it all works out. Hopefully it's not going to be too expensive to repair.

Ray

eskimo
17th Dec 2015, 07:46 AM
Ken

what was the problem?