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DSEL74
3rd Nov 2015, 03:31 PM
After the weekends steam overload I am motivated to set up my line shaft an get her running.

I'm still missing bits and pieces like hangers and probably the correct size pulleys, but if I can work out what I actually need then I can keep an eye out and get the right things.

I'm actually thinking to install two line shafts in two separate areas, One for the drills and one for grinding buffing heads. The drills will be mainly for display but the grinders for use. I believe I will need the grinders running at different speeds for their various uses.

Polishing mop 8"
Nylon Abrasive Wheel 8"
White Stone Wheel 8"-10"? I'll need to measure it.


So what I'd like to know is what speed can the line shaft run at? What speed should each of the above three options run at?
The grinders have slightly different size pulleys but they are around 2", 2 3/4", 4"


If I have 1440RPM motor with a 3" Vee pulley driving a 10 1/4" drive pulley on the line shaft?






The drills again are small bench drills:



10" Burke sensitive drill
Fearnaught
Friction Drive Press
RSB



Any ideas at what speed the drills should be run at?

Only two are complete, so I have to look up the pulley sizes for the others.

The Fear naught has a 3 3/4" Drive pulley and two speed lower cone 4" & 5", Upper cone is 2 1/4" & 3"

Again looking at 1440RPM motor with a 3" Vee pulley driving a 10 1/4" drive pulley on the line shaft?

DSEL74
3rd Nov 2015, 04:17 PM
The smallest drill is the 10" Burke sensitive.

The driving pulleyis 4" and runs at 550 Revolutions. The two speeds are 4.25" & 5.5", on the spindle 2" & 3"

Drilling capacity 0- 3/8"

I'm told the speeds are 1750 & 1150 rpm on the direct motor model. My calculations based on the 4" Drive @ 550RPM are 733 & 1100 RPM

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/02/07b7c758e3f016dc417e09400b4ceffc.jpg

wheelinround
3rd Nov 2015, 05:07 PM
Interesting Dale sounds like a nice set up happening. I also was checking out various set ups not that I'll ever have one, the interest has always been there having seen so many various machines driving and driven.
I guess it all comes down to talk about torque.

I did find this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_shaft and much more comprehensive http://www.old-engine.com/belts.htm

Be great to see some of your set up if possible.

Ray

DSEL74
3rd Nov 2015, 06:25 PM
Ray,
This is what I have so far.
RSB missing all pulleys.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/02/6bfd2b3e875929daf84cb1935fb1af65.jpg

friction drive drill complete cleaned but unrestored
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/02/b4fe07f1d5fa72e898a5fbb2bb1abc41.jpg

small line shaft missing hanger brackets.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/02/d0f94f523c65007a2357f68e3208a4ef.jpg

acme grinder stripped down to be cleaned up and stripped ready to paint, Thomas McPhersons cleaned as found, missing rests. Burke drill, stripped to bare metal bored, primed and waiting top coat, some parts have been made still missing lower cone pulley etc. Fearnaught complete cleaned, ready to strip paint for new.
Great American grinder complete, cleaned needs a change of color.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/02/29a3692cbddd6c9e253929ba1c9fe999.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/02/b883fada6baa580c38924fa47839ec91.jpg

wheelinround
4th Nov 2015, 09:04 AM
Dale I was expecting larger gear. I am impressed with the collection and understand now why this forum has a section for those looking for bits and pieces.

The bright Blue does look out of place maybe a nice hammer tone over the top?

DSEL74
4th Nov 2015, 11:04 AM
Ray,

I don't own a car or have access to one with a tow bar so I'm limited to what fits on the back of the bike or in girlfriend's car boot. I'd like to add some larger items at a later date and maybe one day have a display at goldsmith or Scoresby.

The bright blue is high build sandable primer, and certainly not staying that color. I'm tossing up doing them all in black with red or gold highlights, lettering etc. Or leaning to doing them in a deep burgundy. I have a lot of painting to finish but have been waiting for the better weather.

DSEL74
4th Nov 2015, 11:08 AM
Never really thought about this before, maybe some one here knows the answer.

If you by a 4 pole motor and it is stated as being 1440 RPM is this based on the 19mm shaft or a nominal standard pulley size? As some motors are 19mm, some 1" etc.

DSEL74
4th Nov 2015, 12:04 PM
359312

Who knows how to calculate this out? Fill in the blanks.

For the burke I got 733 Rpm at the 3" spindle pulley and 1100 Rpm at the 2" spindle pulley based on 550 Rpm at the drive pulley on the drill. I think I am calculating it wrong though.

wheelinround
4th Nov 2015, 05:20 PM
You must have had a top ride out on the weekend Dale.

Oh the days of having a small cantilever tool box strapped behind me are long gone. Trying to cart home anything bigger than a carry all, back pack and light enough not to cause a problem like flying across the road when cornering.
I used to borrow FiL's VW. So I do know the limits.
Sounds like we will have to return to Goldsmith to see this stand/shed.
I like your thoughts on paint job :2tsup:
Better weather oh well your in Melb ATM Sydney no better rained since we got home.:doh:
Plan looks good I am going to dig out my handy technical maths books I need to as its my failing.

Michael G
4th Nov 2015, 06:29 PM
If you by a 4 pole motor and it is stated as being 1440 RPM is this based on the 19mm shaft or a nominal standard pulley size? As some motors are 19mm, some 1" etc.

rpm is revolutions per minute - independent of shaft/ pulley size.
As for your diagram, it is just the ratios of the pulley diameters - so 1440 on a 100mm pulley driving a 300mm pulley is 1440 x (100/300) = 480rpm

Michael

DSEL74
4th Nov 2015, 07:17 PM
Thanks mate. I was getting myself mixed up with surface speed.

Steamwhisperer
5th Nov 2015, 05:24 AM
359312

Who knows how to calculate this out? Fill in the blanks.

For the burke I got 733 Rpm at the 3" spindle pulley and 1100 Rpm at the 2" spindle pulley based on 550 Rpm at the drive pulley on the drill. I think I am calculating it wrong though.
Hi Dale
by my calcs your line shaft will be doing 392.72 revs so say approx 400 revs
so to get the Burke to do close to 550 revs you'll need E to be a 3" pulley, 2.89 to be exact :oo: which will give the speed range required though I don't know why H and G are the same size perhaps it's a :doh: moment.
I will need the speed required of the fearnaught to work out the pulley diameter of I
M should equal 9"
I haven't triple checked the results yet so if anyone sees an error don't hesitate.

Phil

wheelinround
5th Nov 2015, 08:16 AM
Thanks Mike and Phil :2tsup:

WE REALLY NEED THAT LIKE BUTTON

DSEL74
5th Nov 2015, 08:31 AM
Phil,

H2. Should be 2"

I got the Burke speed from a catalogue. (see post #2) I don't have any data on the fearnaught but it is a bigger drill and takes larger bits.


I think the 3" you got on the shaft for the Burke (E) should be 5.6"?? to get 550 rpm from a 392 rpm shaft??

DSEL74
5th Nov 2015, 08:42 AM
Few more questions.

The grinding heads all have babbit bearings and screw down grease cups. What grease should I use? Is blue grease suitable?

The drills will be oiled as will the hangers I assume..

Steamwhisperer
6th Nov 2015, 05:42 AM
Phil,
I think the 3" you got on the shaft for the Burke (E) should be 5.6"?? to get 550 rpm from a 392 rpm shaft??

Oops, rookie mistake Dale although I will blame it on old age.:doh:
At work we use the blue grease on all the line shafting although any that have whitemetal or brasses in them generally have a drip tray hanging just underneath.

Phil

DSEL74
6th Nov 2015, 11:09 AM
This is where my earlier confusion set in……once you have a concept stuck in the back of your head it trys to subvert your current thinking. Mine was mixing surface speed into the equation. So for any others who may have the same issue.


Finally got it through my thick skull, any thing attached to the shaft will have the Same amount of Revolutions regardless of the diameter as it turns as one unit. Only the surface speed vararies.

Speed rpm is only changed between separate shafts as a ratio betweven belt connected pulleys.

Once the penny drops it really is a doh moment.



Surface speed does play a part in the overall though which I am still to look in to.
Power transmitted is dependent on belt speed - which is a function of surface speed. This would be a factor in driving a large diameter drill bit etc.

One must also consider how much power needs to be transferred from shaft to shaft by the belt. As the pulley diameter gets smaller there is less surface contact between the belt and pulley surface. If there is not enough contact surface area (friction), the belt will likely slip. Pulley material - metal - wood - leather and belt tension also will determine when slip starts.



I also read that a slack belt transfers more power than a tight belt as the gravity on the weight of the belt wraps the more belt around the pulley giving more surface area. Phil I believe I saw this on the tour in your battery room.
Is this applicable in both horizontal and vertical applications?
Is it preferred to have vertical applications offset from 90Deg so a slack belt can get some sag?

Steamwhisperer
6th Nov 2015, 07:55 PM
Hi Dale
When using rope drives like at work a large catena (sag in the rope between the pulleys) will give more surface contact around the pulley. A large catena in belts won't do the same and instead with a varying load will 'flap' and create a loose tight moment and cause slip.
Too tight and you will get excessive wear on most of the components.
The horsepower is taken from the belt width which should match the pulley width. The pulley should have a slight crown to assist with the belt remaining on the centre of the pulley.
To increase the horsepower of an undersized pulley and belt another belt of the same width is placed over the existing one which will double the horsepower that can be transmitted.
With the vertical belts, dead vertical is ok and will work but it is always good practise to offset the two.
Directly overhead (well, slightly offset) vertical is normally used when the orientation of the machine is different to the line shafting axis.

Phil

wheelinround
7th Nov 2015, 12:33 PM
Not sure if anyone else has been watching Guy Martins "How Britain was made" on 7two Friday nights. He was in to belt drive via a water power turbine and repair of shortening a leather belt. All running a cotton mill.

This all made me think of when I was at Greens Motorcade Museum Dave Manhart had built a water wheel he had plans of using to power old machine at the museum it became just a display. Its now located in the middle of Windsor.

This gave way to thoughts of recent visit to The Hill and possibilities of waste water being recirculated for a similar use Phil.

Steamwhisperer
8th Nov 2015, 06:59 AM
Great show Ray.
Not sure if any mining was done with a water wheel (probably was) but there is an old flower mill at Smeaton that still has the wheel and race in place.
http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/526456/Anderson-Mill-History-Book.pdf

Phil

wheelinround
8th Nov 2015, 10:26 AM
Thanks for that link Phil.

Soory meant the waste water to run other machinery not the mine although they did use horse/ponies to run the shaft lifts.Even as a young fellow I recall dad saying that the motor had died one time he and others hooked the ponies up and set to getting the team underground to the surface.

DSEL74
14th Nov 2015, 06:11 PM
Spent the day at the Bendigo Swapmeet, not only was there a shortage of pulleys, I couldn't find any lineshaft hangers :-( anywhere.

YBAF
15th Nov 2015, 12:14 PM
Spent the day at the Bendigo Swapmeet, not only was there a shortage of pulleys, I couldn't find any lineshaft hangers :-( anywhere.

Looks like there may be some casting work in yer future :wink:

The big Toowoomba swap is only a couple of months away. Usually something of interest there.

DSEL74
16th Nov 2015, 10:17 AM
One grinding head done. Well I will go back at some point and do a bit of pinstriping.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/15/0481d031ea76b85d9a57d190db44c6de.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/15/240ce8436a3ebaaeceb8cae6d039e896.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/15/0445aed011abee3d80a753451ab433b2.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/15/1d132d467703f317c4c271837f1d6b1f.jpg

I got through this one quicker as I didn't try to get it smooth, I skipped the bog and sandable primer. So you can see the cast texture. This was visible in the original finish as well.

wheelinround
16th Nov 2015, 06:18 PM
Dale it looks far better than what it did nice paint job :2tsup: I like those sturdy adaptable tool rest brackets far better than todays flimsy useless type.

Vann
16th Nov 2015, 07:47 PM
One grinding head done. Well I will go back at some point and do a bit of pinstriping.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/15/0481d031ea76b85d9a57d190db44c6de.jpgThat looks really good DSEL. I wouldn't bother about any more pin striping - I think you've got the balance about right as it is - IMHO.


I got through this one quicker as I didn't try to get it smooth, I skipped the bog and sandable primer. So you can see the cast texture.That's the approach I prefer to take too. I don't much like bog/bondi/bondo, and prefer to use it only on major defects.

Cheers, Vann.

Steamwhisperer
15th Dec 2015, 10:45 PM
Some hangers

Phil
360019 360018 360017 360016 360015

DSEL74
15th Dec 2015, 11:40 PM
Very Nice Phil.

I haven't seen round ones like those before.