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Michael G
1st Oct 2015, 10:44 PM
With the move to a separate piece of virtual real estate I've been thinking about the structure of the forum. It's a bit spread out and some sections are not really getting much use. With that in mind I would like to suggest a few changes. You may all hate these ideas in which case say so (nicely). On the other hand you may wish to suggest other changes in which case let's here them. If you agree with what is being suggested then please say so. The structure won't be changed unless there is solid support for it so we need to make our thoughts clear (I should point out I haven't run this past any Mods - the first thing they usually say is what do others think, so I'm trying to find out).
I would hope that if we can consolidate a few sub-forums we can get a bit more happening in them; perhaps even generate some more activity. Most of the structure was based on that in WWF but now that we are not co-located we can do a bit of pruning.
Here is a mud map -
358785
Running through the changes,

Metalwork announcements becomes announcements and is moved to Forum and members help
The Foundry and The Smithy is consolidated into a single sub forum I've called 'Hot stuff' - mainly to get more of a critical mass
I would like to split the main forum (Metalwork forum) into two pieces. One called that (or perhaps General) and one called Metal Projects. The only thing allowed in Metal projects would be projects that have a specific outcome - whether that be restoration, repair or make from new. Everything else would stay in the General forum, so say questions about insert tips are General, but if you are going to show others how you made the holders, that is a metal project.
The Hercus area would be split either into General or Metal projects, depending what is being done. They are nice guys really, so there is no reason to keep them in isolation...
Trailers and other fabrications I think should be put into Welding - welding and fabrication usually go hand in hand and right now there is a fabulous boat fabrication going on in welding. Lots of the guys there are really knowledgeable on welding too, so it's probably not a bad match
School forum - that's a carry over from WWF but I'd like to think if there is a General or Projects section we can cater for that. Do we need it as separate?
I'd incorporate the Antique and vintage machinery sub forum into the Metal work forums - it's an orphan and having it where people can see it would probably give it a bit more use. Restorations could go in Projects, more general stuff (photos, film clips, requests for information) could stay under that listing
Auto restoration I'd regard as a Metal project and so include it in that sub forum
Auto parts I would team with the Marketplace subforums
Other stuff/ conversions and calculations. Not sure about that one either. Another carry over but not really all that useful because of the differences between WW and MW. If a pattern is needed it can be either in the General forum or Metal Projects - perhaps as a sticky. Get rid of it?


Anyway, those are my thoughts. The last time I suggested changing things I was called all sorts of things so I'd prefer not to repeat that experience. If it is a bad idea then just say so but I think it has merit and I would like to think that if we consolidate in a smart sort of way it will make the forum easier to navigate and more interesting. It might be easier to moderate too and may attract additional volunteers to moderate (I might even be tempted, tyrannical despot that I am...)

Michael

Pete F
1st Oct 2015, 11:31 PM
I think that is a very well considered and smart approach to things Michael, and I agree with what you've come up with.

I appreciate people participate on forums for many reasons, and one of those reasons may be the virtual "company" and friendship of those with similar interest. That's great, but personally I just like to make "stuff" and enjoy seeing the "stuff" others make, and am less interested in chit-chat that's often not in any way related to machining or metalwork. Nor am I even slightly impressed with idiotic nit-picking of some esoteric point that somebody who rarely even steps foot in a workshop has discovered via Google. I just want to see their "stuff", hear about their successes, and maybe what they learnt from their failures. Never mind a thread, I could write a whole book on all the epic-failures I've had!!! :D.

I don't even look at the other welding etc sub-forums, ever, but expect there's some good stuff going on there. Likewise I do plenty of TIG welding myself, indeed did a small welding project just a few days ago, yet don't put it up in the welding section as I never go there. If I was seeing the work of others I may be inspired to put some of my own up there too. The same goes for the "hot" stuff, I've never gone to those sub-forums, as I just don't have time, but would no doubt find inspiration to do more of it myself if the threads were in one place and if I saw an interesting thread title I'd likely click on it.

I think it's a great idea. Keep all the actual metalworking discussions and threads in one area, and if others want to discuss how many gnats they've managed to measure with their Chinese micrometer versus their Japanese micrometer, or which way they think the wind will blow on Sunday, that's great, and they can knock themselves out with other like minded people.

Well done Michael!

BobL
1st Oct 2015, 11:43 PM
I don't worry about forums or forum structures as my "dashboard" page is "New Posts" which covers all forums and it allows me to go straight to the relevant post.
The only time I open up an individual forum is to look for things in that forum.

I do the same for the WWF.

Ueee
2nd Oct 2015, 12:43 AM
BobL that is exactly what i do now we have the separate forum.

One thing i will say is that i am not confident posting what i am doing as it may be seen as free advertising and will be removed.

An off topic lounge may also be a good idea, for all these posts that really have nothing to do with metalwork.

To be honest the biggest put off of this forum is the trolls, they seem to be kept well fed and often there seems to be more trolling going on than decent posts.

Even this type of thread annoys me somewhat as it will attract far more attention than any project or problem or machine will. Whats the point in a metalworking forum when the format gets more attention than the metalworking?

jhovel
2nd Oct 2015, 01:57 AM
Michael, congratulations for the initiative and proposal. I ke it and agree with the structure and logic.
Like others here, my links to all forums is the "New Posts" link. That way I get to see all topics irrespective of their location, but when searching for specific inforamtion, a nice logical structure is very helpful. Some forums simply have too many choices. This one doesn't yet, but without a good map to start with it could easily get there.
I wholeheartedly support you proposal.
One addition I would like to see is something about electronics and maybe CNC for metalwork machinery - but that's just to satify some of my interests....

Pete F
2nd Oct 2015, 05:47 AM
One thing i will say is that i am not confident posting what i am doing as it may be seen as free advertising and will be removed.

Seriously? So no discussions of work done commercially are allowed without paying the forum owners? That's a pretty sad state of affairs if so. Personally I would love to see what you're doing Ewan, who better to learn from than from somebody who has got to the stage where they're doing that particular skill to earn their living. I could certainly understand it if the person/business merely came on and raved about how great their product is with no real content of interest.

What's next, no photos of factory tours either :?

Steamwhisperer
2nd Oct 2015, 06:22 AM
Well done Michael
great proposal. Since I first joined I have read every word from every metalwork thread (even the VFD ones until my head hurts) but lately I have found myself glossing over a few just scanning for something metalwork in the body of text.
After a bit of study on the mud map I couldn't really suggest any changes other than like you say, in 'Other Stuff' perhaps lose the 'Conversions and Calculations', maybe replace that with 'VFD fault finding' or 'VFD for Dummies' or perhaps leave it empty.
There is always going to be a bit of crossover when it is left up to posters to decide the heading threads should be under.
All up I am in support of your idea 100%
Again, well done.

Phil

PDW
2nd Oct 2015, 07:28 AM
One thing i will say is that i am not confident posting what i am doing as it may be seen as free advertising and will be removed.


Same WRT straight edge castings and other similar stuff that I get cast. Why should I bother risking it? Metalworking in general is peripheral to what I do for money, making tools to check tools is even more peripheral. In fact it's a bit of a PITA but once the patterns are done, they're done so getting another set of castings is simple.

Not worth the hassle posting pix etc of machining up the castings as it could be seen as disguised advertising. Yes, there's the marketplace, fine. If you're selling a one-off.

Also agree about the trolls. The current Grays thread is a classic example. If not started by a troll, it's pretty indistinguishable.

What the vBulletin software desperately needs is an 'Ignore Thread' option in addition to the 'Ignore Poster' option. If it was open source I'd likely write one.

Any Projects sub-forum needs ruthless moderation IMO. The machine tool reconditioning forum on PM stays very much on topic due to the moderator's rigorous pruning.

PDW

Michael G
2nd Oct 2015, 08:07 AM
One addition I would like to see is something about electronics and maybe CNC for metalwork machinery - but that's just to satisfy some of my interests....

Now that the CNC section of WWF is elsewhere that may be something to think about. I guess my view would be - Are you doing a CNC conversion or fitting a motor/VFD combination? - that's a project. Are you asking for help finding a star point, not sure of a parameter or connecting things up? - that's a general question. The critical questions are is there a specific goal at the end of your activity and as Pete has alluded to, will it provide inspiration or a learning experience (new knowledge) to others. It will of course depend on how what you are doing is framed but the aim is to consolidate the posts that show how to do things (or how things were done, good or bad) from those asking for advice or raising other (possibly non-core) issues. Nothing saying that posts could not be moved between the two. If a post starts out asking a question and then as an answer someone does a blow by blow "how to" to answer it may be worth moving.

Michael

BobL
2nd Oct 2015, 08:30 AM
One thing i will say is that i am not confident posting what i am doing as it may be seen as free advertising and will be removed.
Well, I for one would like to see what you are making.



An off topic lounge may also be a good idea, for all these posts that really have nothing to do with metalwork.
Yep good idea.


To be honest the biggest put off of this forum is the trolls, they seem to be kept well fed and often there seems to be more trolling going on than decent posts.
I haven't noticed that but maybe I am one of them?


Even this type of thread annoys me somewhat as it will attract far more attention than any project or problem or machine will. Whats the point in a metalworking forum when the format gets more attention than the metalworking?
Maybe you're right, I just though the few projects I posted about were of minimal interest to members.

Briangoldcoast
2nd Oct 2015, 10:08 AM
Thank you Michael for grasping the nettle. I think your suggestions are good, and agree your proposed layout could make things simpler and more user friendly. In saying that, I'm laid back enough to just enjoy the interactions with like minded guys, no matter the format.

YBAF
2nd Oct 2015, 10:43 AM
Same WRT straight edge castings and other similar stuff that I get cast. Why should I bother risking it? Metalworking in general is peripheral to what I do for money, making tools to check tools is even more peripheral. In fact it's a bit of a PITA but once the patterns are done, they're done so getting another set of castings is simple.

Not worth the hassle posting pix etc of machining up the castings as it could be seen as disguised advertising. Yes, there's the marketplace, fine. If you're selling a one-off.

Also agree about the trolls. The current Grays thread is a classic example. If not started by a troll, it's pretty indistinguishable.

What the vBulletin software desperately needs is an 'Ignore Thread' option in addition to the 'Ignore Poster' option. If it was open source I'd likely write one.

Any Projects sub-forum needs ruthless moderation IMO. The machine tool reconditioning forum on PM stays very much on topic due to the moderator's rigorous pruning.

PDW

"...Also agree about the trolls. The current Grays thread is a classic example. If not started by a troll, it's pretty indistinguishable..."


Pardon!


Please do tell me how you define a troll ?


While I await the answer lets us consider...
Auctions of all types are mentioned in numerous threads in this forum. It is a prime way for many to attain the machinery they use. Pray tell what is the issue with me posting a thread pertaining to A MACHINERY AUCTION !!!

RayG
2nd Oct 2015, 12:54 PM
Nice work Michael, I see some sensible ideas for rationalization in there. In my opinion, the fewer sub forums the better. In fact I'd be happy with flat structure, just one forum for everything. But I see Welding, Foundry, Automotive, Gunsmithing etc type sub forums are deserving of their own space. A lot of the projects I do are commercial, and mostly involve custom electronics, but lately I've been doing a lot of plastic machining and plastic welding. I'm reluctant to post because it's not metalwork.

I agree with Joe, that an electronic section ( as it relates to machining ) would be nice, but keep it in the main forum, unless the volume of posts becomes onerous.

I'm less convinced about the idea of a separate projects forum.

Ray

welder
2nd Oct 2015, 01:30 PM
I agree with a latout change , with a seperate project forum Especially as its getting harder.to find the few project posts between all the genaral chit chat which I also enjoy browsing.

DSEL74
2nd Oct 2015, 01:32 PM
I would like to see those "semi commercial" or back yard business projects allowed. I think as long as your talking technique and not sales pitch the mods should be able to tell the difference and allow it. Also the 3 strikes principle could be applied to that sort of thread.

I also don't necessarily think the metal working forum needs to be elitist to metal as the only medium allowed, if your using your metalworking machinery to machine other mediums my belief is that it is still valid. Any other process that is also co-related I think should be accepted. E.G. rubber casting, to make custom reals or grommets etc.

Michael, I think you've put forward a sensible option and if it doesn't work out it can always be refined or reverted back at a later date. So why not give it a try.




* As a side note I think that maybe a bit more moderator intervention may be required at times to adjust some of the content in terms of "bullying" or "Snarky" behaviour. I have noticed both here and the WWF that some people don't post much in the way of constructive comments directed towards certain people who they may dislike or have had previous disagreements with, but are more than happy to post negative thoughts and criticisms. Constructive criticism and feed back is a good thing but if you don't have something nice or useful to say keep it to yourself. You never know another persons state of mind and what implications your off hand comments can have positive or negative, so best to play nice.

Oldneweng
2nd Oct 2015, 05:15 PM
I agree with what you suggest Michael, but the way I read it you are reducing 6 subs to 5. Not a big change. Gunsmithing often goes a long time without any posts. Maybe find a place to put it.

I also think it may time to remove references to the woodworking section. ie


Yeah, yeah, I know these are supposed to be Woodwork Forums, but many woodworkers also do a lot of metal work. Here is a forum for those who dare to work in metal. Use it wisely.


THE SCHOOL FORUM (http://metalworkforums.com/forums/251-THE-SCHOOL-FORUM)


The place for Schoolies to ask questions about Woodwork/Metalwork or any School Project at all.

I am now sitting back waiting for the nay sayers to come out of the woodwork (am I allowed to say this?) with completely false ideas about what is going on here.:D:rolleyes:

Dean

RayG
2nd Oct 2015, 06:41 PM
I would like to see those "semi commercial" or back yard business projects allowed. I think as long as your talking technique and not sales pitch the mods should be able to tell the difference and allow it. Also the 3 strikes principle could be applied to that sort of thread.


I don't think it's a case of not being allowed, it's more a case of not being appropriate. I could never in clear conscience post a customer's job on a public forum, it's just not the done thing. I guess if it's a unique process of something unusual, it would be of some interest to the forum, but not without the customer's approval.

Private projects, are a different kettle of fish altogether. The more the merrier.

.RC.
2nd Oct 2015, 06:48 PM
I thought the lack of posts on metal working projects was just a seasonal thing, now that winter is finally gone and the days are getting longer and the sheds getting warmer, we might see some more action. I know in winter time I do not want to be in a cold shed..

Plus sometimes you lose enthusiasm for awhile and want to do other stuff, or be outside...

DSEL74
2nd Oct 2015, 07:07 PM
Sorry Ray, I was more thinking along the lines of Ewan's, developments like the Strap on, Noob, wheels, and magnetic grinding guards.

You are certainly right not to post any sensitive material that may be a breach of confidence etc or that you are being paid to develop. But I would welcome your seeing you plastic work if it doesn't fall into that arena.

Pete F
2nd Oct 2015, 11:23 PM
I thought the lack of posts on metal working projects was just a seasonal thing ...

I think the season has been going on for a few years now :wink:

Personally I believe people in general tend to follow the herd. For example, when there's lots of projects and activity being put up by people it tends to inspire others to get out and do the same. When there's lot's of navel gazing and people trying to outdo each other as to who's the Google champion of the universe, so follow the others to do the same. When I'm dead and burnt I'd like to be remembered as "that guy" who turned out all sorts of interesting gadgets and things in his workshop. Everyone is in control of their own destiny and what they choose to do with their life, but I highly doubt anyone will be laying on their death bed wishing they'd really spent more of their life hovering over an internet forum trying to get just one more smart-A snarky comment in before they take their last breath!!! :D


I have noticed both here and the WWF that some people don't post much in the way of constructive comments directed towards certain people who they may dislike or have had previous disagreements with, but are more than happy to post negative thoughts and criticisms. Constructive criticism and feed back is a good thing but if you don't have something nice or useful to say keep it to yourself.

Amen to that brother!!!

Even if Michael's great efforts lead to nought, maybe it could just in itself inspire some more people to put up more of their work ... or in some cases just do some projects to put up!

markgray
3rd Oct 2015, 08:28 AM
Michael I totally agree with you proposed changes. I don't really look past the general forum but if the number of options was reduced I might be more inclined to browse a bit more. Only other thought is with the "what did you learn/buy/do today threads that are so long you can't go back and find anything. Much prefer a descriptive heading and a short thread on whatever you have brought/done then move on when done.
Very much like the idea of a separate project forum as some bigger projects can span a long time.

Thanks for taking the time to think about how to improve the flow of the forum.

Mark

BobL
3rd Oct 2015, 10:04 AM
I've also been thinking about this and reckon a structure that is based on activity (what has/is being done) rather than the current mix of specific topics (e.g. gunsmithing) and general topics like "Metal work" , would help reduce confusion and also cross fertilise ideas.

I realise its historical but these forums are all about "metal work" so having a specific large forum with the title of "metal work" is ???????????
- e.g. the wood work forums rightly doesn't have a specific "wood work" forum.

I was thinking something along the lines of;

Projects - as proposed by Michael
Techniques/Methods - self explanatory
Equipment - old/new, questions, purchases, gloats, mods and upgrades, reviews
Announcements
Liquorice All Sorts.

Michael G
3rd Oct 2015, 06:37 PM
I did think about something along those lines but you then have an opposite problem - someone interested in say foundry work may have to search through lots of threads to find stuff they are interested in, so to me a few general divisions are not necessarily a bad thing. The main reasons that I left Gunsmithing by itself was that there are some people who don't want to read about that sort of thing. I must admit that I like reading things like BrianLara400's recreations/ modifications but trying to work out why a rifle is not shooting is something that does not excite me.
The other reason I limited myself to rearranging primarily the topics that we have is that if members are in favour of it, someone has to do the work and it will be a lot easier to shuffle existing topics than basically start from scratch.

Michael

Pete F
3rd Oct 2015, 07:56 PM
Along those lines Michael, I think things would be much better if people considered the title they use before they post. Another forum banned from mention here will close threads with what's deemed a "meaningless topic title", even if the content is relevant. The upside of this is that members can glance down the threads and only click on the titles they think may be interesting to them. It avoids the necessity of a billion sub-forums containing things of interest, as anyone can just skim through the threads and click on the topics of interest to them.

In addition all topics not deemed to be related to machining are prefixed with the "OT" in the title. That way those who want to argue the merits of how pixie dust fits on a pin head can knock themselves out without wasting the time of others who just want to read and post about machining. Chit-chat is not allowed as there are plenty of other forums available for that.

Ueee
3rd Oct 2015, 08:07 PM
Totally agree Pete, there is nothing worse than seeing a title "Need some help". The more detail in the title the better.

Michael G
3rd Oct 2015, 08:27 PM
I think things would be much better if people considered the title they use before they post. Another forum banned from mention here will close threads with what's deemed a "meaningless topic title", even if the content is relevant.


Totally agree Pete, there is nothing worse than seeing a title "Need some help". The more detail in the title the better.

So you guys want me to abandon my 'imaginative' titling for something descriptive? Damn!
(I have the Power; Dissecting his imperial majesty; Keeping up with the Jones; Something hot and steamy; Only in an imperfect world would we be without vice; What can I do about the noises in my head - the list goes on. And here I was trying to inject some interest...:no:)

Michael

BobL
3rd Oct 2015, 09:20 PM
The other reason I limited myself to rearranging primarily the topics that we have is that if members are in favour of it, someone has to do the work and it will be a lot easier to shuffle existing topics than basically start from scratch. l

Sure I can understand that.

I figure if someone has to go through a big forum like the MW forum to select out project threads to be incorporated into a "projects" forum they might as well do the same for "methods" and "machinery"? but maybe that's not how it works in practice.

PDW
3rd Oct 2015, 10:43 PM
So you guys want me to abandon my 'imaginative' titling for something descriptive?

Yes. Sorry, but I always thought they were lame and frankly, not helpful. Did you ever read Heinlein's 'Moon is a Harsh Mistress'? First time, it's witty. Second time, it's half-wit(ty). Geometric progression.....

I'm a big fan of rules relating to thread titles being descriptive and focused. I rarely read a couple of the long-running threads here because I've no way of telling what's worth my restricted time from 'Your Latest Project' et al.

PDW

Michael G
3rd Oct 2015, 10:49 PM
I figure if someone has to go through a big forum like the MW forum to select out project threads to be incorporated into a "projects" forum they might as well do the same for "methods" and "machinery"? but maybe that's not how it works in practice.

There would be a lot there. I think it is more likely that a nominated selection would be transferred across.


Yes. Sorry, but I always thought they were lame and frankly, not helpful.

Sigh. I'll try and restrain my creative instincts them.

Michael

eskimo
4th Oct 2015, 11:07 AM
I was just getting used to this new site...now its (proposed) changing again..... Micheal, stop thinking up great ideas:2tsup:
suppose I'll get used to it...sooner or later

YBAF
4th Oct 2015, 02:30 PM
...I was thinking something along the lines of;

Projects - as proposed by Michael
Techniques/Methods - self explanatory
Equipment - old/new, questions, purchases, gloats, mods and upgrades, reviews
Announcements
Liquorice All Sorts.

"Liquorice All Sorts" ...sounds a bit sweet. Blah.

How about "Off-cuts", "The Scrap bin", "The Crash" etc...

Stustoys
4th Oct 2015, 05:09 PM
I've been trying out "new posts" and "activity stream" for the last few days, I'd given up on them in WWF as newposts just killed me and I couldn't get subscribed forums to work in activity steam for some unknown reason. Because of that I didnt often get into gunsmithing, the foundry or the smithy that often, laziness rather than lack of interest. Rough numbers about 9 threads a month total in all three forums.

So in short, less forums the better*. the only one on your list I'm not so excited about is splitting metal work into two forums, as others have said its going to be a lot of work for someone, even going forward I can see issues and I dont see any real advantage


So you guys want me to abandon my 'imaginative' titling for something descriptive? Damn!
Hey I liked them, if I want a forum with more restrained titles I know where to find one.

Stuart

*though if I get a handle on "new posts" is may grow on me in which case I wont really care to much...... I'll have to wait and see on that one.

.RC.
4th Oct 2015, 05:37 PM
I prefer simplified setting..

I would remove gunsmithing after all 28 threads in a few years.

blacksmithing and foundry merged

Add a projects forum. But for more forums to be added, some have to go or be merged.. I hate forums where on the main page you have to scroll down 37 metres of sub forums.

Remove "gday mate" forum. Serves no purpose I think.

Merge automotive/machinery into one forum.

remove automotive for sale, it can go into the general for sale.

After all all these forums are not going to get much use and they just wear out my mouse scroll.

Generally speaking, there are that many forums out there, it is better to be specialised then trying to be a master of all. If I want to talk about vintage machinery I go to smokstak. If I want to discuss computer problems I go to whirlpool, if I want to get banned from a forum I go to whirlpool or another metal working forum that I will not name. CNC I would probably go to CNC Zone.

As I know I will most likely get more help there.

Stustoys
4th Oct 2015, 05:42 PM
Remove "gday mate" forum. Serves no purpose I think.
I can't really comment on that as I don't recall having ever been in there ;)

Stuart

Michael G
6th Oct 2015, 09:29 PM
Everyone has had a chance to comment (I hope). It sounds like the original plan suggested is thought by most to be reasonable (not necessarily the best, but a good place to be). Perhaps an additional forum for electron taming VFD, motor and CNC issues?
As per Richard's thoughts above, "G'day mate" is not thought necessary?
Not sure what to do about gunsmithing - The how to's could go into projects, the questions into general? Do we need a general 'metal work' as well as a 'things other than metal work' for discussions about things that are not metal work?

Final thoughts and then I will see if the mods are interested in changing things around.

Michael

BobL
6th Oct 2015, 09:52 PM
. . I'm not so excited about is splitting metal work into two forums, as others have said its going to be a lot of work for someone, even going forward I can see issues and I dont see any real advantage .

I agree and wouldn't bother carving up the existing MW forum. Just start a project forum and encourage members to post projects there. The only work for the mods would then be to move any new clearly "project" threads into that forum.

We'll need a reasonably clear definition of "project".
e.g. is a small machine mod a project? What about development of a new technique or way of doing something?, is "testing" a motor or "antirust methods" a project OR does there have to be a clearly definable "product" at the end of the project?

Michael G
6th Oct 2015, 10:17 PM
I would agree that apart from nominating a few obvious threads to seed it, it would be mainly new threads unless an old thread was revisited and moved across.

My definition of a thread suitable for inclusion into a projects thread would be projects that have a specific outcome - whether that be restoration, repair or make from new. Doesn't matter if they are metal or have other materials included or perhaps even no metal. The important thing is that it is something that someone has attempted to meet a need.

Threads would need to indicate the aim up front and I would expect that threads would either show others how things were done or show how not to do them; threads that start with a question on how to do something would not automatically be included.
So a small machine mod is a project, developing a new technique would if it were framed along the lines of "I wanted to do ____ and this is how I solved the problem(s)". Testing a motor is a little trickier but if you were showing how to test a motor or (as you have done) run a series of tests, I'd call that a project. A question like "what's the best way to de-rust this___" would not be a project but taking that information and running some tests I think would.

I guess at the end, the thread has to be able to inspire or educate others on how to do things. I would not want it to end up as an area where members show a new shiny thing they made just to show they can without putting up enough information to help others get to a similar result (or at least know how it could be done). No problems with others reading the thread asking for details or commenting (other than negatively) as that is part of the exchange of ideas.

There would not be an issue with people (or the OP) asking for opinions of others as part of that thread but it's a question of the end result - so for example if someone was making up a piece of equipment and wanted opinions on the best thing to use as a bearing - no problem, because at the end of the project people can see the final result and see how that issue has affected the whole. Bob's microscope gear thread is a good example as even though it started with a couple how should I questions, the aim was to repair the scope and anyone reading later would be able to see how it was done, what he did and maybe even what things to avoid.

Michael

WelderMick
6th Oct 2015, 10:32 PM
I agree Michael... your proposed changes look good to me.
Cheers
- Mick

steamingbill
7th Oct 2015, 01:00 AM
For me the classification of the various threads into different topics is almost irrelevant.

I browse the titles of new posts and read anything that I think might be interesting.

I search old posts using keywords and read whatever I think might be relevant to my current interests.

It doesnt particularly matter to me what the broad structure of the forum topics looks like. I don't often use advanced search functions in order to limit the findings to one particular sub forum.

Could the proposed changes have an effect upon some of the search functions - ie are there database indexes that have to be tweaked to get past posts realigned into the new buckets - maybe thats only a few keystrokes by a clever person or maybe there is a lot of work involved - I dont know.

So for me, as long as I can continue to browse new posts and search the old posts with keywords it doesn't matter what the broad classification of topics looks like.

Bill

simonl
7th Oct 2015, 07:15 AM
Hi Michael,

Late reply from me, sorry. I'm pretty much happy with what you suggested. I'm a pretty simple unit and I don't stray far from this particular forum (except when I'm looking for some info) anyways. Some of them I have never been to either!

RC, do you really wear out mice scrolls?

Simon

Pete F
7th Oct 2015, 10:28 AM
Bill I agree with that, however part of the issue is that sometimes ... well often in fact, the thread title gives no clue to what the thread may contain. I have absolutely zero interest in arguing over time zones, or reading about lawnmowers or lighting barbecues. Nor do I have the time to chit-chat on a forum, I would much rather spend that time constructively in my workshop, as my interest is metalworking not chit-chat. I find it somewhat frustrating to click on topics only to find that it's yet another in the seemingly endless off-topic discussion about something completely unrelated to metalworking.

In my opinion much of the mooted changes could be avoided with a bit more discipline with thread titles, and they should properly reflect what the thread contains.

BobL
7th Oct 2015, 11:10 AM
Bill I agree with that, however part of the issue is that sometimes ... well often in fact, the thread title gives no clue to what the thread may contain. I have absolutely zero interest in arguing over time zones, or reading about lawnmowers or lighting barbecues. Nor do I have the time to chit-chat on a forum, I would much rather spend that time constructively in my workshop, as my interest is metalworking not chit-chat. I find it somewhat frustrating to click on topics only to find that it's yet another in the seemingly endless off-topic discussion about something completely unrelated to metalworking. .

I agree that there's too much off topic stuff in the metal work forum and its going to be impossible to stop those sorts of threads unless like on the WWF there's a "nothing to do with metal work" forum set up. On WWF, NTDWWW is very popular having the 4th most numbers of posts and that is what i meant by my Liquorice All Sorts forum suggestion for us. Some of the posts that would have gone into NTDWWW forum are now going into the main MWF. My recent thread of Mcgyver in space is one example. I'm loathed to suggest creating yet another forum but it sure would help keep the WWF clean of this material.
Once again I would not do anything with these posts in the current MWF but just start a LAS forum.

YBAF
7th Oct 2015, 11:45 AM
Heh, yer know you is on a metal machinists forum when every thread needs to be categorised and defined to the nearest thou... :U

Pete F
7th Oct 2015, 12:06 PM
Bill I agree with that, however part of the issue is that sometimes ... well often in fact, the thread title gives no clue to what the thread may contain. I have absolutely zero interest in arguing over time zones, or reading about lawnmowers or lighting barbecues. Nor do I have the time to chit-chat on a forum, I would much rather spend that time constructively in my workshop, as my interest is metalworking not chit-chat. I find it somewhat frustrating to click on topics only to find that it's yet another in the seemingly endless off-topic discussion about something completely unrelated to metalworking.

In my opinion much of the mooted changes could be avoided with a bit more discipline with thread titles, and they should properly reflect what the thread contains.

Oldneweng
7th Oct 2015, 12:21 PM
In my opinion much of the mooted changes could be avoided with a bit more discipline with thread titles, and they should properly reflect what the thread contains.

This is a very good point. It is something I try to do.:2tsup:


Some of the posts that would have gone into NTDWWW forum are now going into the main MWF. My recent thread of Mcgyver in space is one example. I'm loathed to suggest creating yet another forum but it sure would help keep the WWF clean of this material.
Once again I would not do anything with these posts in the current MWF but just start a LAS forum.

What actual benefit would there be from "keeping the forum clean" like this. I am not saying you are wrong, just wondering.


Heh, yer know you is on a metal machinists forum when every thread needs to be categorised and defined to the nearest thou... :U

:2tsup:

Dean

franco
7th Oct 2015, 12:26 PM
I don't have any objection to the occasional thread whose subject is only peripheral to metalwork provided that it is marked Off Topic in the title so that people interested in hard core metalwork topics can skip it if not interested. Some very interesting information sometimes comes to light in these threads. However, I do strongly agree with Pete F and others that titles should give an indication of the content of the threads so that searching for previous threads on the same subject is made easier. Also, the internet is an incredible source of information, and many of the threads in the Metalwork Forums could be of immense value to other researchers world wide if they can find them!

My own feeling is that it is a mistake to have too many sub forums. Once again, this makes searching for old relevant topics difficult, because many topics can overlap into several possible forum classifications if the classifications are too narrow, and it is all too easy to miss relevant posts which would be of interest. Until the separation of the Metalwork Forums from the Woodwork Forums I normally visited only the General and Welding forums because of the time taken to wade through all the other forums, so missed the occasional pearls of wisdom which appeared in the others. Now, with the smaller number of forums to cover I find the New Posts feature does save some time and allows me to check out the other forums.

Frank.

DSEL74
7th Oct 2015, 12:40 PM
I can see both sides of the quirky title debate. I like an interesting title as it adds interest but can also see how it makes it harder to reference bak to the thread 12mths later when you know the info you want was mentioned someplace. For those who might not be aware if you hover the mouse over a thread title it pops up a bubble with the opening post summarised. I often use this to see if I want to open and read a thread.


The other point of course is that without a long and clearly defined definition of "Metal Working", it is and always will be a value judgment based on the posters in the forum. Is stripping down and restoring a mill metal working? How about replacing bearings? Turning up some space age plastic for bushes? on, and on. We don't want to over complicate life and these points can be a whole box load of cans of worms being opened.


The simple structural changes proposed make sense.

.RC.
7th Oct 2015, 01:01 PM
The other point of course is that without a long and clearly defined definition of "Metal Working",

Is grating gears in a manual transmission metal working? :D:D

Pete F
7th Oct 2015, 01:23 PM
I like an interesting title as it adds interest ...

Personally I'm more interested in the information the poster has to share on metalworking than reading their attempts at tabloid editing. As you said, it also makes it very difficult to find the thread later when going back. Even a search typically throws up multiple hits, and if I was looking for information I remember reading somewhere on, say, scraping some angle blocks with a Biax, I'd much prefer to be looking down the list for a thread titled as such instead of a pointless "Who would have thought" or similar title that describes nothing.

franco
7th Oct 2015, 01:28 PM
One further thought comes to mind - a lot of potentially very valuable information is hidden away in catch-all threads like Your Latest Project and Whisperings which are not easy to classify, and this information is not easy to find unless you know it is there. One example comes to mind. A contributor to another forum was looking for information recently on overhauling a boiler feed pump and had been (he said) unable to find anything useful on the internet or elsewhere. I referred him to Phil's excellent write up on the subject in Whisperings which covered the subject in very well illustrated detail.

I can see arguments for threads like these, particularly in the case of Whisperings, where one member is the main contributor of the information. However, it does make finding information on the separate subjects in the content difficult.

So - should threads like these normally be avoided, or maybe have their own index of "Significant Posts" to make them more easily searchable?

Frank.

PDW
7th Oct 2015, 01:40 PM
So - should threads like these normally be avoided, or maybe have their own index of "Significant Posts" to make them more easily searchable?

Frank.

I rarely bother with them unless I'm totally bored. Phil's thread is the only real exception.

"Your Latest Project" 30 pages later - really? I have enough *parallel* running projects to have a single thread running for 8 years or more. It's a PITA so I don't inflict them on people. There's one thread on another forum that's over 50 pages and spans 4 years so far. Frankly, my care factor decreases rapidly.

Back channel gossip indicates that I'm far from alone in how I feel.

PDW

Vernonv
7th Oct 2015, 01:55 PM
4 pages of this, really?

I use "new posts", so don't care what the forum names are.

If I don't find the title interesting, I won't read it, or I'll take a quick look and then decide, but I don't expect people to try and pander to me with an enticing and catchy title.

You want to find a thread, use google.

... time to move on.

PDW
7th Oct 2015, 02:13 PM
If I don't find the title interesting, I won't read it, or I'll take a quick look and then decide, but I don't expect people to try and pander to me with an enticing and catchy title.

I think you're (deliberately?) missing the point.

1. I'm not asking for a "enticing and catchy title", I'm asking for a concise and descriptive title. If you can't see the difference.....

2. This is only one issue, though it's obviously a hot one. The other is the balance/mix of plainly off topic posts WRT metalwork or anything else - chit-chat covers it nicely. To the *possible* detriment of metalworking threads.

Whatever - I'm pretty much done with this.

PDW

Vernonv
7th Oct 2015, 02:17 PM
1. I'm not asking for a "enticing and catchy title", I'm asking for a concise and descriptive title. If you can't see the difference.....A distinction without a difference really. :shrug:

... and it wasn't specifically directed at you.

Col2310
7th Oct 2015, 03:29 PM
I've been thinking. (http://metalworkforums.com/threads/198190-I-ve-been-thinking/page4)Sorry to post off topic but could not resist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNalxy-_SyM

YBAF
7th Oct 2015, 07:45 PM
Is grating gears in a manual transmission metal working? :D:D

I think thats called metal polishing. :U

jack620
7th Oct 2015, 08:49 PM
I agree with those who want fewer forums. However I like having a separate Hercus forum (cause I own one).

PDW,
I have no view on YBAF's Grays Auctions thread, but just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them a troll. In fact, I find you to be often quite intolerant of other's views. Something for you to work on.

Chris

eskimo
8th Oct 2015, 08:00 AM
4 pages of this, really?

I use "new posts", so don't care what the forum names are.

If I don't find the title interesting, I won't read it, or I'll take a quick look and then decide, but I don't expect people to try and pander to me with an enticing and catchy title.

You want to find a thread, use google.

... time to move on.


when are we going to get the LIKE button
:2tsup:

Pete F
8th Oct 2015, 10:19 AM
Yes, instead of an intelligent and valid attempt to encourage debate to improve the forum, retain members who have all but given up on the forum, and maybe inspire others to get away from their keyboards to their workshops and just enjoy doing what they like to talk about. It's time to get back to more important metalworking forum topics like arguing over daylight saving, lighting barbecues, and lawnmowers that don't work.

PDW
8th Oct 2015, 11:08 AM
In fact, I find you to be often quite intolerant of other's views. Something for you to work on.
Chris

This is true, I could well be categorised as intolerant. If challenged on a matter of fact and someone presents a reference to show that I'm wrong, I have no hesitation in conceding this and moving on. If someone wants to argue about matters of opinion, fine, I have no problems in saying right now that I don't subscribe to the belief that all opinions have equal value, especially on a forum where there are maybe 6 active posters who might be peers or superiors to me in skill and experience.

I have no intention of changing my posting style. The 'ignore poster' option exists for a reason. Pity there is no 'ignore thread'.

As for the troll comment, there has been a previously banned member who has rejoined a couple of times, racks up a few posts then trolls the forum. One classic sign is trying to pick an argument about a totally trivial point in a throwaway comment, or attempting to engage in a discussion of conspiracy theories.

This thread has now suffered the inevitable drift to the point where it bears little resemblance to Michael's opening post. In the time it's been running, how many posts about actual machining projects have been made, and by whom.....?

PDW

Oldneweng
8th Oct 2015, 07:29 PM
At a quick glance that would be you and I, PDW. My posts have been pretty skimpy tho.:D

Dean

YBAF
9th Oct 2015, 02:01 PM
...As for the troll comment, there has been a previously banned member who has rejoined a couple of times, racks up a few posts then trolls the forum.

One classic sign is trying to pick an argument about a totally trivial point in a throwaway comment, or attempting to engage in a discussion of conspiracy theories...


PDW, Whilst I am a member of other forums I've only recently started posting to this forum under the YBAF call sign. No prior postings under any other call sign. The reason I've only recently started posting is I'm a relatively recent 'convert' to the metal machinist hobby.

PDW, seems we need to see some evidence of the claimed "...argument about a totally trivial point..." and the "...engage in a discussion of conspiracy theories..."

ubeaut
5th Nov 2015, 12:34 AM
As I have just mentioned in this thread > CLICK HERE (http://metalworkforums.com/threads/198338-Silly-season-is-fast-approaching?p=1897721#post1897721) < I was only informed of this thread today and I'm giving every consideration to any and all suggestions that may help the forums.

For future reference: It is always best to bring and suggestions to me directly either via email or PM. I don't have a chance to participate much in either MWF or WWF so unless something is brought to my attention it may well go completely unnoticed by me.

The moderators on a whole are split between WWF and here and have a lot to do so again some posts may go unnoticed by them as well. There are lots of posts to go through and there is basically 1 dedicated moderator for MWF and that's Grahame Collins.

Just out of interest:
When Woodwork Forums started back in 1999 there were around 20 members with newbies signing up at the rate of between 1-3 per day for the first 6 months.
User activity average of 150 per day
New threads average of 5-7 per day with a max of up to 16 on several occasions
New posts average of 60 per day (Much of which was drivel and other ridiculous garbage)
WWF new threads have been declining somewhat for the last 18 mths - 2 years as have most forums world wide with many closing down (mainly due to mobile devices, the Likes button Facebook, Pintrest and other social media sites)

Since the split (last 2 mths) MWF has had the following stats:
New members average between 1-6 per day
User activity average of 180 per day (Average of 90 registered members accessing or using the forums per day)
New threads average of 6-7 per day with 10-12 on a number of occasions
New posts average of 70 per day
MWF may never be as big as WWF but it will grow to be a lot bigger than what it is now we are working in the background towards more promotion of the forums and building it's user base but it will take some time before this is apparent.

Hope this is of some interest and sorts out a thing or two.

Cheers - Neil :U

ubeaut
5th Nov 2015, 01:31 AM
Metalwork Announcements has been Announcements in the Forum and Members Help section since I think around week one.

Metalwork Forum has now been split into Metalwork General and Metalwork Projects

Personally I think The Foundry and The Smithy should be kept separate. I have actually been considering splitting the Smithy into two sections one for the black smiths and the other for the Gold and Silver Smiths for fine metalwork like jewellery, silverware platters, goblets, and other high end smithing.

Lumping a number of forums into the metalwork general or projects would probably see the demise of them as they disappear into a sea of other metalwork that often isn't relevant or related to their original interest. The Hercus and Auto Restoration areas would be lost in there. Bare in mind that the Hercus Area came into existence because of numerous requests to separated it from the general metalwork sections as it was hard to keep track of the specialised Hercus info.

That's about it for now.

Cheers - Neil :U

.RC.
21st Nov 2015, 08:37 AM
Looks like your thinking has paid off Michael :D

Next thinking project, world peace. :)

RayG
21st Nov 2015, 09:46 AM
Looks like your thinking has paid off Michael :D

Next thinking project, world peace. :)

We now have more dead end forums than you can easily count. Big leap backwards. We need to stop Michael thinking anymore... :)

Michael G
22nd Nov 2015, 11:26 AM
We need to stop Michael thinking anymore...

Geez. I get in trouble if I think too much at work; I get in trouble if I think too much at home. Now I'm thinking too much on the forum. Time to hide in the shed:saddest:.

Michael

eskimo
22nd Nov 2015, 11:38 AM
G Time to hide in the shed:saddest:.

Michael


yes, so you should.... its such a lovely day what are you doing inside playing on the computer anyway?
me?... oh, i am doing bookwork, been hot of late, meaning I have been busy and have'nt had time during the week...honest

RayG
22nd Nov 2015, 01:02 PM
Geez. I get in trouble if I think too much at work; I get in trouble if I think too much at home. Now I'm thinking too much on the forum. Time to hide in the shed:saddest:.

Michael


Hi Michael, don't take me too seriously, I'm falling into the category of grumpy old man. If there are more forums that need to be checked, so be it. ( I usually only ever look at Metalwork General ), never look at the multitude of others, too busy or too lazy.

So what's the best way of tracking what's happening on multiple forums?

Ray

Vernonv
22nd Nov 2015, 01:42 PM
So what's the best way of tracking what's happening on multiple forums?Hit the "New Posts" link at the top of the page.