Graysonline

[YBAF]

If you are buying or selling equipment, here's something you need to know.


Had my first go at bidding on a Greys online machine auction. Normally I just go to live auctions.

http://www.graysonline.com/sale/5015790/engineering-and-toolmaking/major-event-cnc-machines-engineering-toolmaking?page=3

I'd set up an account with Greys some time ago though today were going to be the first usage.

Read the instructions for the auction. If you win the biding then Greys will contact your email with bank deposit details. No problemo.

Find what I like and then try to post a bid. Can not proceed until I enter my credit card or paypal details ??? OK, looks like a computer error. Lets ring them and get it fixed. Telstra connects me to a Sydney number and after a wait I get what sounds like the Delhi message centre. Chap answers, says its Greysonline and how can he help. Wants my email address and what is the problem. I explain the Greys instructions and subsequent problem though he insists my credit card details need to be entered ??? I explain my credit card is only for small purchases and not for big ticket machinery purchases. I start to hear laughter in the back ground so I ask to speak to somebody higher up.
After another wait I get what sounds like the same chap who insists he is the manager...... so I hang up.


So I'm thinking. When I post my details on the Greys web site all that info goes to some overseas 'office' that thinks its a joke that a customer has a concern.
Greys do warn you that they'll give your information to who-ever it suites them to. And they shaft you a high price as well.


I'll only be dealing with the reputable Australian auction houses in future.

[Vernonv]

I'll only be dealing with the reputable Australian auction houses in future.So you won't be buying at auctions from now on? :D

[Stustoys]

I assume you know all this, but incase not.
If the total invoice value is more than $5k you have the option of bank transfer(or you can pay with CC for +3%), other than that is CC only(their user agreement makes no mention of paypal that I can see, maybe they consider it the same as a CC?)
I thought you had to enter CC to register, and its been like that for 6 years +. Maybe you registered before that?
Cant say I'm a big fan of Grays, though I have picked up a few things on there over the years.
Wow there is some nice stuff there though!

Stuart

[RayG]

I buy from Grays all the time, and never have any issues, ( except their buyers premiums ) not sure what the problem you are having actually is, is it that you don't want to give out your CC details?

As Stuart already mentioned, you can't use CC over $5000, you need to do a bank transfer. Below that, you can use CC.

Ray

PS... I see a few nice machines in that auction, but I'm not buying at present, I need to consolidate and rationalize to find space for the last round of auction purchases :)

PPS.. Parallel test bar? Maybe in a past life. http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0287-5015790/engineering-and-toolmaking/parallel-test-bar

[YBAF]

I assume you know all this, but incase not.
If the total invoice value is more than $5k you have the option of bank transfer(or you can pay with CC for +3%), other than that is CC only(their user agreement makes no mention of paypal that I can see, maybe they consider it the same as a CC?)
I thought you had to enter CC to register, and its been like that for 6 years +. Maybe you registered before that?
Cant say I'm a big fan of Greys, though I have picked up a few things on there over the years.
Wow there is some nice stuff there though!

Stuart

I appreciate that Stustoys. Though as far as I'm aware it is actually illegal to use a form of payment, i.e. Cheque or credit card when it is not backed by sufficient funds to honour the purchase price. So I can not use the credit card. My credit card is only used for small day to day stuff - Not big ticket items.

As I mentioned, Greys clearly state that they will be sending an email with their bank details for direct debiting.

Here is a cropped snap shot of the screen I get...

[YBAF]

...As Stuart already mentioned, you can't use CC over $5000, you need to do a bank transfer. Below that, you can use CC...

Correct. From the Grays site "Invoice totals exceeding $5000 must be paid by direct deposit" The only two options I were given were credit card or paypal. So I contact Greys to work out what seemed a small detail and...


Heres a cropped snap shot of the 'agreement' just in case it gets changed:

[Stustoys]

Ok I just registed again. Seems I was wrong, you can register(as you know) without CC details, you just cant bid(as you also know).


In order to be eligible to make purchases using the Service, you must provide details of an acceptable credit card sufficient to make online payments. As part of the registration process, we may charge a nominal amount (AUD$1) to your credit card and then re-credit that amount to the same credit card (which usually takes no more than one week). These transactions may appear in your credit card statement. By registering, you irrevocably authorise us to process these transactions.

They make pretty clear you cant bid without verifying your email address, much less clear about CC


I appreciate that Stustoys. Though as far as I'm aware it is actually illegal to use a form of payment, i.e. Cheque or credit card when it is not backed by sufficient funds to honour the purchase price.
But when you provide those details you only need $1 in sufficient funds.
You arent using a form of payment with insufficient funds until you win an action worth less than $5k,,, if your CC has less than $5k on it then you either need to be careful(or willing to pay Grays penalty) or you cant play in their yard)

Stuart

p.s. I saw that one Ray :(

[Stustoys]

"Invoice totals exceeding $5000 must be paid by direct deposit"

yet they state you can use CC here(at their option, so maybe they dont let anyone do it?) Though granted thats not your issue.

http://graysonlinesupport.force.com/apex/ArticlesDescription?id=92

3.2 Online Auctions - Your obligation to pay

If the Invoice Amount is more than $5,000, and you don't pay it into a bank account nominated by us, at our discretion and on our instruction, you may present your credit card at one of our nominated offices, for either all or part of the final payment by you. We may also charge an additional 3% administration fee to your invoice, calculated on the total Invoice Amount.

Infact you can use as many CC's as you like to make up the total

Stuart

[variant22]

PS... I see a few nice machines in that auction, but I'm not buying at present, I need to consolidate and rationalize to find space for the last round of auction purchases :)

If space was not such a premium here and I had access to a crane (the last crane hit my house with its boom!) I can see at least 3 machines I would bring home... :)

[YBAF]

...They make pretty clear you cant bid without verifying your email address, much less clear about CC

But when you provide those details you only need $1 in sufficient funds.
You arent using a form of payment with insufficient funds until you win an action worth less than $5k,,, if your CC has less than $5k on it then you either need to be careful(or willing to pay Grays penalty) or you cant play in their yard)...

Stustoys, I appreciate what you put there. Though, as the screen shot of the process you go through to put a bid on a lot clearly shows, it is "Select a payment method" from only two choices. It does not say select a payment method subject to various other subsections or select a $1 credit card option.

Here is the screen shot again...

[pipeclay]

If you were to win an auction that exceeds your credit limit why not just transfer the required amount to your credit card.

[Stustoys]

. It does not say select a payment method subject to various other subsections or select a $1 credit card option.

Yeah its a mess(but they are not alone there), different info in different places, why they don't make it very clear you need to register a CC or pay pal before you try and bid is beyond me. I can see why they want CC details though, makes their life easier and that seems to be what they are interested in most of the time. How else would you stop people signing up just to bid for fun?

Stuart

[YBAF]

Yeah its a mess(but they are not alone there), different info in different places, why they don't make it very clear you need to register a CC or pay pal before you try and bid is beyond me. I can see why they want CC details though, makes their life easier and that seems to be what they are interested in most of the time. How else would you stop people signing up just to bid for fun?

Stuart

Stustoys, at the end of the day that would have been a non event that a confirming email from Greys could have fixed. Its what happened next that were the concern.

The last auction I went to were a Pickles auction in Toowoomba. A towbar/bull bar manufacturer sell-up. I'm looking at the web listing pre sale and got the impression that the actual sale were at Pickles Archerfield site. Seemed strange so I rang up. Cheerful lass put me straight so a non-event, off to Toowoomba I go.

I regularly go to clearing sales around the bush in some obscure locations that take a phone call to get directions. 10pm phone call to some drunk Ray White /Dalgetys /etc agent, will often get yer to somewhere close.

Greys online, a simple phone call for clarity leads to... (re read first post)

Seems Greys are not only selling up an Oz industry that is struggling against foreign competition, they are charging a massive mark-up and using overseas labour to do it.

[.RC.]

The Hardinge must have been good.. It was a very old model..

[YBAF]

Those surface grinders are still being battled over :U

[YBAF]

Still going. In dribs and drabs the J-S 540 has nearly cracked two K. Just wack 100 more on and yer got it. :U

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0015-5015790/engineering-and-toolmaking/surface-grinder-jones-shipman-model-540p


Edit. Sold, $1,929 + rort + GST ++

[Stustoys]

I guess they liked the wheel dresser. I know I like the look of it.:p
Power Z is a + to

[RayG]

The Hardinge must have been good.. It was a very old model..

That winning bidder is a regular, I think he might be a dealer, so you can expect that Hardinge to re-appear for 10K or better.

[Pete F]

The Hardinge must have been good.. It was a very old model..

Do you still have a link to that? I've been busy all day so didn't look at much

[.RC.]

Yes I have the first two pages saved so I can go back and look at individual lots after the sale is over.

The Mori Seiki machining centre went for $25 000.


http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0051-5015790/engineering-and-toolmaking/precision-tool-room-lathe-hardinge

[Hunch]

The test bar wasn't as bad as it appeared in the pics, bits of greased brown paper stuck to it - not rust. Surprised at the price the blanchard grinder went for too, although guess they're not thick on the ground.

Quite a few Styles recycled Boeing bits and pieces, Interact principals attend virtually all auctions.

[YBAF]

Re the Hardinge. Strange sorta bidding history.

Last three bids are all different bidders and go: $3509 then a 2K jump to $5509, then the winning bid is just $10 more ? Strange indeed.

How are these internet auction sites policed? If there is a high auto bid lodged early on, what is to say somebody in the Greys computer department don't make some dummy bids to take it up to near the highest auto bid?

Here is a snapshot of the bidding history for discussion purposes...

[Stustoys]

Nice to know Hunch


Re the Hardinge. Strange sorta bidding history.
Its been awhile since I paid much attention to Gray bidding, but if I recall correctly, Grays only show each bidders highest bid(unlike ebay). So M.C. from Bowral could have $10ed Z.V from Bell Post Hill from $3519 to $5519 and that page would look the same

Stuart

Edit in fact J.A. could have done some $10ing as well. Z.V could have been winning bidder since $1019

[Toggy]

Made my old girl cheap!!

Ken

[YBAF]

Nice to know Hunch


Its been awhile since I paid much attention to Gray bidding, but if I recall correctly, Grays only show each bidders highest bid(unlike ebay). So M.C. from Bowral could have $10ed Z.V from Bell Post Hill from $3519 to $5519 and that page would look the same

Stuart

Edit in fact J.A. could have done some $10ing as well. Z.V could have been winning bidder since $1019

You would be correct Stustoys. Looking at the final list of bidders it only shows one bid per bidder, i.e. their highest bid as you say.

Now, how do you know if the under bidder is a genuine bidder ?

If the winning bidder did an earlier auto bid of say $5,500, though the highest genuine under bidder stopped at say $3500, what is to stop a dummy bidder at Greys HQ with knowledge of the high bid slowly working the figure up ?

[PDW]

Now, how do you know if the under bidder is a genuine bidder ?

You don't know. If you have grounds for suspecting this, please state them.

Frankly if you're worried about this, keep upping your bid by one increment at a time until you're high bidder. Personally, I have better things to worry about.

As usual with recent Grays auctions, they've gotten better prices than the same stuff sells for on eBay. I find that interesting but don't care a lot. These days I'm just bottom-feeding, there's nothing I'm actively hunting. The 'project machine' backlog is already too long.

PDW

[YBAF]

You don't know. If you have grounds for suspecting this, please state them.

Frankly if you're worried about this, keep upping your bid by one increment at a time until you're high bidder. Personally, I have better things to worry about.

As usual with recent Grays auctions, they've gotten better prices than the same stuff sells for on eBay. I find that interesting but don't care a lot. These days I'm just bottom-feeding, there's nothing I'm actively hunting. The 'project machine' backlog is already too long.

PDW

"grounds..." I've covered that in prior posts. Who polices Greys internet auctions ?

"As usual with recent Grays auctions, they've gotten better prices than the same stuff sells for on eBay..." Proof of claim please ?

[Stustoys]

Now, how do you know if the under bidder is a genuine bidder ?
You don't. Though you appear to have gone from a bad phone call to fraud pretty quick. As I said there is nothing strange about the bidding you've shown.........the winning bid is almost always going to be $10 more than second place(depending on bid increment, though if you are into the "killer bid", last I checked Grays allow that).
Guy on ebay tried it once.. didnt last to long.
I doubt the dealers wouldn't notice.


Stuart

[Ueee]

PPS.. Parallel test bar? Maybe in a past life. http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0287-5015790/engineering-and-toolmaking/parallel-test-bar

Yeah, its a parallel bar for testing rust. Dah!

[PDW]

"grounds..." I've covered that in prior posts. Who polices Greys internet auctions ?

"As usual with recent Grays auctions, they've gotten better prices than the same stuff sells for on eBay..." Proof of claim please ?

www.carefactorzero.org......

PDW

[Vernonv]

If an item is under $5000 and you are the highest bidder, do they give the the option of payment methods (bank transfer, paypal, etc) or does it always automatically get charged to the credit card?

[Stustoys]

always automatically get charged to the credit card.
A quick flick through my grays says within an hour of the auction ending.

Stuart

[RayG]

"As usual with recent Grays auctions, they've gotten better prices than the same stuff sells for on eBay..."
PDW

I'd agree with that, the general observation that Gray's prices have skyrocketted in the last few years, Lockwoods, Styles, etc, offer better bargains at the moment.

The thing I don't understand is why are the dealers in there paying top dollar? It's not like there is a shortage of machines coming onto the market.

[YBAF]

"As usual with recent Grays auctions, they've gotten better prices than the same stuff sells for on eBay..." Proof of claim please ?


www.carefactorzero.org (http://www.carefactorzero.org)......
PDW

So no proof of claims.

[RayG]

"As usual with recent Grays auctions, they've gotten better prices than the same stuff sells for on eBay..." Proof of claim please ?



So no proof of claims.


I think we cross posted, but not sure what sort of "proof" you were expecting, but, my opinion is that lately Gray's prices on machine tools have been very strong, compared to what they were 2-3 years ago.

[YBAF]

...you appear to have gone from a bad phone call to fraud pretty quick...

...I doubt the dealers wouldn't notice.

I've found over many years that the way you are treated by the staff that deal directly with the customers is a fairly good indication of the way the company owners or top managers treat the staff, and customers. The incident yesterday was what set me to questioning the whys and wherefores.


Stustoys, unless you think us country people normally take a week between thoughts I hardly think any of the little that I've covered could be considered "pretty quick".


And I would be interested to know what the dealers think of it all.

[variant22]

"As usual with recent Grays auctions, they've gotten better prices than the same stuff sells for on eBay..." Proof of claim please ?

So no proof of claims.
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0947-5014332/ - enough said

[RayG]

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0947-5014332/ - enough said

Yep, around $50-60 each on ebay, $250 each on Gray's

Incidentally I have SK40 arbors, are you looking for some to go on the FP3? There's a milk carton full of them that came from GQ, you'd be welcome to a few.

[YBAF]

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0947-5014332/ - enough said

...and the ebay reference to compare ?

And I woulda thought we need more then a couple of outlier sales as proof of claims.

[DSEL74]

I think part of the auction problem is the mentality which is reflected in the terminology often used, which is incorrect any way (Bid/Bet). I often hear people say they put a bet on that item rather than a bid and you are a winning bidder or you won the item…You were the successful bidder. The thing people are getting into is a competitive scenario where is becomes about winning at whatever the cost (literally) rather than buying an item. Now that it is all online it's a bit more like going to the pokies.

It happened in the old days but, you could see the dealers who were bidding, the frantic bidder and the scrappy and you had a physical reminder of the object sitting in front of you. So you had a bit more to go on.

Auctions are always a gamble as to what you re actually getting but it doesn't need to be a competition.

[variant22]

...and the ebay reference to compare ?

And I woulda thought we need more then a couple of outlier sales as proof of claims.
I'm not sure if you are serious? Maybe you were the lucky winner of those 40 taper chucks?

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0948-5014332/
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0946-5014332/
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0110-5014965

http://metalworkforums.com/threads/195976-Dear-Grays-Auction-winner?p=1874244

[PDW]

I'm not sure if you are serious? Maybe you were the lucky winner of those 40 taper chucks?

http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0948-5014332/
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0946-5014332/
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0110-5014965

http://metalworkforums.com/threads/195976-Dear-Grays-Auction-winner?p=1874244

Don't forget the clamp kits for more than new price.....

and don't I recall tissuescars selling a HLV-H for $3000 BIN?

All of which is why I posted my care factor to his demand for proof. Because, frankly, I don't.

PDW

[YBAF]

Don't forget the clamp kits for more than new price.....

and don't I recall tissuescars selling a HLV-H for $3000 BIN?

All of which is why I posted my care factor to his demand for proof. Because, frankly, I don't.

PDW

Small detail - I actually did not use ebay as any sort of comparison. I used several other auction companies.